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Insurance woes....

E

Epsound

Well Known Member
Hello all,

Thought I would throw this up onto the alter and see what comes back.

Just got off the phone with a insurance person about figurative rates for a finished 9(?). I am a low timer with 0.0 tale dragger time. The reason for my call was to fold: 1) to get an idea of what the initial cost would be to insure the RV, and 2) to see what the cost difference would be between tripod and tail draggers.

Findings:

9 @ 75k + 1 mil damage = $2700 per year :eek:

9A @ 75K + 1 mil damage= $2200 per year :mad:

First of all, I don't want to appear cheap. And, I have always argued that building is the fastest way to overall savings in owning an airplane. But I must say, this was very aggrivating to hear. (it was a recomended company off the EAA site)

This really caused me to think more deeply about the idea of insurance. This could concievably be a deal breaker for me.

So I thought I would ask around to see if this sounds par for the course. Further, are there any RVers out there who skip the insurance part until they build hours or just skip it all together? I'm not sure anymore if I want to pay several hundreds of dollars per month whether I fly or not before any other expense incurred. I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this matter. I'll consider this feild research.


Best,



E.
 
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Consider this...

Bite the bullet for full coverage during year one while you learn the beast and while it gets thru the test phase. Later years buy liability only. After all, if you crunched a wing, would you not order parts and fix it?
 
I think you can do better

I got three quotes and they varied widely.
The best quotes I got were from the agent that administers the EAA program, Falcon Insurance in Texas. They were more in the $1600 range.
 
I got quotes from 4 insurance agents. 2 were within $100. 2 others were +$400 and +$500 more for what appeared to be similar coverage. Cost can vary based on many factors.

I had 265hr PP(18hrs in the last 12 months), 60hr TW, 10hrs in RV-7 with Mike Seager transistion training. Hull value $80K. Total cost was $2010(last month), I think the hull portion was about $1500.
 
You didn't say how many hours you had and what value you put on your RV. The zero TW $$$ is about right because they have to figure you are going to learn in your -9. They seem to greatly reduce the number at 100 hours TW and more when you get to 100 hours in type.

Those numbers are right in line but remember, by the time you fly off your first year, you will probably have more than 100 hours in type and TW. Once you get those numbers, the next year's bill should be much lower.
 
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The Liability Part is Important

Evans:
As already mentioned, your insurance rates will drop as you gain more flight experience (I pay about $1,300 for coverage similar to what you're looking at). Also, make sure you understand the policy. Even though you might opt for "full" coverage from the beginning, some policies don't cover hull until the aircraft is out of the test phase or until "X' number of hours have been reached. Obviously, they do this because the odds of an incident are much higher for an aircraft that's never been flown. Add in a pilot with low experience, and the bet (premium) you have to lay down is much larger. That said, the "9" model is about as docile as you can get in a relatively high performance aircraft. Whether you opt for full coverage or hull only depends on your own estimates of value/risk, but I would never fly without liability coverage.
BTW, what branch are you in? I have family in 4th ID at Carson.
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
 
flying = $$$$$'s

Epsound said:
Hello all,

Thought I would throw this up onto the alter and see what comes back.

Just got off the phone with a insurance person about figurative rates for a finished 9(?). I am a low timer with 0.0 tale dragger time. The reason for my call was to fold: 1) to get an idea of what the initial cost would be to insure the RV, and 2) to see what the cost difference would be between tripod and tail draggers.

Findings:

9 @ 75k + 1 mil damage = $2700 per year :eek:

9A @ 75K + 1 mil damage= $2200 per year :mad:

First of all, I don't want to appear cheap. And, I have always argued that building is the fastest way to overall savings in owning an airplane. But I must say, this was very aggrivating to hear. (it was a recomended company off the EAA site)

This really caused me to think more deeply about the idea of insurance. This could concievably be a deal breaker for me.

So I thought I would ask around to see if this sounds par for the course. Further, are there any RVers out there who skip the insurance part until they build hours or just skip it all together? I'm not sure anymore if I want to pay several hundreds of dollars per month whether I fly or not before any other expense incurred. I would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this matter. I'll consider this feild research.


Best,



E.
Click to expand...

Flying is expensive. No way to get around that fact.

Owning an RV is expensive. No way to get around that fact.

The lowest cost way to fly less than 75 hrs a year is to rent an aircraft. The most reasonable way to reduce cost of ownership is to fly an airplane that has a hull value of less than $35K (C152 or older C172, Warrior, etc) and lower insurance rates due to lower performance.

But for some of us, those aren't satisfactory options so we pay a lot of money to fly our RV's. :)

Your best option for reducing cost of owning an RV is to accumulate as much time as possible in a rental aircraft, and preferably add a tailwheel endorsement. When you are ready to fly your RV, the rates will be lower due to your hours and experience. There are some more insurance options (GNIM or ground-not-in-motion policies) that have lower premiums if you can afford to self-insure the hull. Personally, I would never consider flying an RV with no liability coverage.

Continue to pursue your dream, but be prepared for sticker shock. :)
 
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Experience in rental aircraft. Let's assume $100/hr for the plane and $50/hr for an instructor.

100 hours @$150/hr is $15,000. Less if you can fly solo (doubt it). So building up time in your RV9 probably costs a lot less and the delta insurance is only $500.

$500 for one year versus $15,000 to save $500. What to do? What to do?

PS, if you base your plane at COS check on the taxes they are reportedly making people pay.
 
Check the price with and without hull coverage. Another option is hull coverage on the ground but not in flight. I agree with others that you may want to carry hull for the 1st year for the same reasons.

My 13-year old RV-6 is $350 / year $1 Million liability only.
 
Ron Lee said:
Experience in rental aircraft. Let's assume $100/hr for the plane and $50/hr for an instructor.

100 hours @$150/hr is $15,000. Less if you can fly solo (doubt it). So building up time in your RV9 probably costs a lot less and the delta insurance is only $500.

$500 for one year versus $15,000 to save $500. What to do? What to do?

PS, if you base your plane at COS check on the taxes they are reportedly making people pay.
Click to expand...

Ron, you left out one little detail in your cost analysis....the cost of purchasing the RV. :)
 
Geez Sam, as soon as I saw your post on the forum summary page, my initial thought was that you found a flaw in my analysis.

While you are correct, I assumed that he would get the plane anyway. Should he fly a lot to reduce his insurance once flying...or get the hours with his RV?

I also did not count the cost of flying the RV 100 hours. Bottom line is that the extra $500 the first year for a taildragger versus an A model is minor.
 
Ron Lee said:
Geez Sam, as soon as I saw your post on the forum summary page, my initial thought was that you found a flaw in my analysis.

While you are correct, I assumed that he would get the plane anyway. Should he fly a lot to reduce his insurance once flying...or get the hours with his RV?

I also did not count the cost of flying the RV 100 hours. Bottom line is that the extra $500 the first year for a taildragger versus an A model is minor.
Click to expand...

Ron, my point was that flying a rental for 75 or fewer hours per year is less expensive than owning an RV and flying it the same number of hours, at least for the first few years. My suggestion was to build time in the rental to get the RV insurance rates down when the RV is finally built and ready for flight.

Of course, we pilots don't always seek the most financially prudent options. :)
 
E, I have heard that planes are being assessed some sort of fee/tax. Call an FBO or perhaps the airport management to get details. It has forced some planes to move to Meadow Lake in Falcon.

Sam, your point is well taken. You can't rent a plane at affordable rates to do all the things I have done with my 6A.
 
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Epsound said:
Findings:

9 @ 75k + 1 mil damage = $2700 per year :eek:

9A @ 75K + 1 mil damage= $2200 per year :mad:

This really caused me to think more deeply about the idea of insurance. This could concievably be a deal breaker for me.




E.
Click to expand...

Consider just liability, I think mine is around $600/yr. Liability is often required by hangar owners. Can you manage if you loose the airplane in a crash? Or if you damage it, would you be able to fix it yourself? Likely. For hull coverage (the expensive part), the insurance company is betting you will not crash your airplane, and they have the data to know it is a good bet that you won't. So unless you are required to carry hull insurance by a finance company, I think it is reasonable to self insure the hull.
 
hate rentals

I don't think you can put a price on the shear joy of having your own plane sitting in a hangar, all fueled up just waiting for you to fly.

I'm willing to pay the $$$ for this.

I hope I never have to rent again!

Dave
-9A flying
 
Another data point:

First year insurance (75k hull, 1M liability) = $1700
Second year insurance, same coverage = $1700 even with almost 200 hours on the plane.

I was told that the insurance goes up and down on an almost daily basis depending on what the companies have paid out in the past x months.

I will probably go to liability only this coming year.

greg
 
JDRhodes said:
ARRRRRRGGGGGHHH!:confused::confused:
Click to expand...

I almost didn't post because of this. Yes you were one of the close ones. The other got the nod, because of I have past history with them. Sorry this time.

Next year after I get some time in type, I'll be shopping again.
 
"Shopping" insurance

Every time the subject of insurance comes up I feel obligated to reprint these wise words from Jeff Rhodes. Pay careful attention to the second paragraph, it will save you time and headaches.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

ALL insurance for RV's is written through one of seven insurance companies.
Chartis- new name for AIG
Aerospace
Global Aerospace
Starr Aviation
Britt Paulk Aviation Underwriters
US Specialty
AVEMCO

Hundreds of BROKERS represent all of these companies. These brokers include Falcon, Nationair, Airpower, CS&A, Travers, AJM, Hardy, Sky Smith, Leading Edge, AOPA etc. etc. etc. ALL of these brokers go to all of these markets for quotes. Your quote is not from Nationair, or from Falcon - it is from one of these insurers. It serves NO purpose to "call my guy at xxx-xxx-xxxx" as is so commonly recommended here.

Pick a good broker - one that you can reach on the phone when you call and one that explains things to you when you talk. Let that ONE broker shop the market for you and report each insurer's response to you. Then pick the insurer that has the best package for your PARTICULAR situation and unique variables.

AVEMCO is the exception to the above - they are a DIRECT writer (agent and insurer are one in the same. They advertize that this saves you money, but in most cases it is 10-20% more expensive than the broker-accessed options.

AOPA is a broker, like all the rest. However, they are a call center type outfit. Often I've seen that they market your renewal only with one company (usually AIG / Chartis) and don't give you good options with the rest of the market.
__________________
Jeff Rhodes - Taylorsville, GA
 
Thanks all,

This is all good information. I have realized is that the most prevalent thing here is that it requires a different mindset from what we are typically looking to protect with insurance. For example, we insure our cars so we'll be able to 'get them fixed' and have it paid for; not to forget covering those around us when a (heaven forbid) an accident actually occurs. Or, our house suffers some ecological disaster, etc. Primarily (for me anyway) we have this to cover repairs we wouldn?t normally be able to do ourselves both technically and financially.
With regards to our home built we (in reality) don't truly need others to fix our aircraft we built. However we may want to have the parts cost paid.
That said it seems prudent to go with full coverage initially and taper off as time goes on.
All in all this string has been very helpful.

Thank you all.


E.
 
Don't forget that this market changes almost daily.
The "Gang of Seven" listed above has expanded slightly.

The companies are jockeying for position daily.

TJ
 
EAA

I am intrigued as to why the EAA does not take a lead in this either by negotiating discounts for members, or by setting up an insurance scheme for members. The US is big enought and has enough pilots for you to get together and set up a scheme where the only overheads you pay are for the administrators of the scheme, something like a friendly or mutual society.
 
Tey do

The EAA is partnered with a large insurer - Global Aerospace to offer a program - sort of - to members. Global Aerospace expands coverage slightly and lowers deductibles. Like most programs, though, Global's compeditors pretty much match rates in short order.

The market is nowhere near big enough for a mutual to survive or provide any real advantage to it's members. With only, what - 10,000 units? - participating, any substantial loss would bankrupt the program. Better off buying from established insurance carriers. It's really not that expensive. Less than insuring a car of equal value for the year!
 
Imagine an engine failure in the west or over a forest, or over water and the plane is totaled. That is why I carry insurance. Not a little ding.
 
JDRhodes said:
The market is nowhere near big enough for a mutual to survive or provide any real advantage to it's members. With only, what - 10,000 units? - participating, any substantial loss would bankrupt the program. Better off buying from established insurance carriers. It's really not that expensive. Less than insuring a car of equal value for the year!
Click to expand...

This is clearly driving cost. There just aren't enough experimentals in the air to bring cost down relative to the commercial planes. One thing we have going in our favor however, according to the agents I have spoken to, RVs are considered the safest and are the lowest to insure among experimentals.

I will have to get a 'lot more' time in the air before I my rates down to what I pay now for car insurance.

E.
 
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Hmmmm

Not sure I would agree. Have you tried to insure a $75000 sports car lately with no experience driving???


Epsound said:
I will have to get a 'lot more' time in the air before I my rates down to what I pay now for car insurance.

E.
Click to expand...
 
Findings:

9 @ 75k + 1 mil damage = $2700 per year

9A @ 75K + 1 mil damage= $2200 per year

Even with a TD it's less than $8/day. Skip the Starbucks, pack a lunch; you're covered! Surely having your own flying machine is worth that small sacrifice.

Enjoy it, you only go-around once.

George
 
There is a decent amount of competition for the RV series.
They are easy to insure, unlike some of the Lancairs.

The losses the underwriters pay would probably stagger you.
Remember that most of the claims never make it to the FAA Accident database. Hangar-rash, bird strikes, ground loops etc.

The underwriters can very quickly exceed "normal" losses and end up upside down for the year.

Although I love Yaks and own one myself and insure a TON of them, we have had a bad year with 6 fatal. (T6s have been worse). Upside down on premiums versus claims. Thankfully the good underwriters will see through a bad year and hope for better next.

TJ
 
Insurance

Insurance is a tough one in experimentals. My logic was always that:

1. I'll just not hit a house or kill anyone in my plane.

2. If something does happen, if it costs more than a few thousand to fix I'll be dead.

The problem with option 2 is that I may be dead but my wife and kids won't be, and will be stuck with a possible burden.

My point is, at least do liability. As far as hull coverage, I wish I had it when my friend wrecked my -4. Would have saved me some sleepless nights. I just finished my -8 and i'm getting $60K hull coverage and 1 mill liability for $1300 per year. I'm a 10,000 hour + airline guy with a few hundred tailwheel so that helps. $1300 is no drop in the pan for me but I'll suck it up to never have a burden on me like my last one. Accidents happen.

If its any consolation to writing that check, I have a few friends who have had accidents and the insurance companies have all been great.

Hope this helps.
 
Don't forget that if you WhacK yourself in the airplane and you are Liability Only your family gets nothing. Liability Only provides no benefit for you as the owner, it protects you from 3rd party claims only.

With hull coverage, at least they would get the $60k or $80k or whatever it was insured for (less bank loans and such).

I go through dozens of claims throughout the year and some are ugly.
Lots are just bent metal too and all the companies really respond well.

One option is the "Accidental Death and Dismemberment" type policy.
I got mine from Harvey Watt, its designed for EAA and experimentals and was cheap. Good way to provide something extra for the family for just a few hundred bucks.

Now... off to the airport to play with something greasy...
TJ
 
ccryan said:
Insurance is a tough one in experimentals. My logic was always that:

1. I'll just not hit a house or kill anyone in my plane.

2. If something does happen, if it costs more than a few thousand to fix I'll be dead.

The problem with option 2 is that I may be dead but my wife and kids won't be, and will be stuck with a possible burden.

My point is, at least do liability. As far as hull coverage, I wish I had it when my friend wrecked my -4. Would have saved me some sleepless nights. I just finished my -8 and i'm getting $60K hull coverage and 1 mill liability for $1300 per year. I'm a 10,000 hour + airline guy with a few hundred tailwheel so that helps. $1300 is no drop in the pan for me but I'll suck it up to never have a burden on me like my last one. Accidents happen.

If its any consolation to writing that check, I have a few friends who have had accidents and the insurance companies have all been great.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Good points. Coincidentally while I was talking with the insurance agent he spotted $1300 for coverage you just described for pilots with high hours. Problem is....I don't have 10,000 hours. Rather, I have only around 170 and no dragger time. That said my quote for the same coverage was closer to $2,300. He also said that $1,300 was as good as it would get for pilots with the highest hours. So in the end you will likely be writing that same check year after year with little relief. I would gradually come down each year but can never realistically expect to get down to professional pilots levels. That doesn't take into account how much the premium would increase if you did have an accident. Peace of mind has its price......of course.

E.
 
Epsound said:
Good points. Coincidentally while I was talking with the insurance agent he spotted $1300 for coverage you just described for pilots with high hours. Problem is....I don't have 10,000 hours. Rather, I have only around 170 and no dragger time. That said my quote for the same coverage was closer to $2,300. He also said that $1,300 was as good as it would get for pilots with the highest hours. So in the end you will likely be writing that same check year after year with little relief. I would gradually come down each year but can never realistically expect to get down to professional pilots levels. That doesn't take into account how much the premium would increase if you did have an accident. Peace of mind has its price......of course.

E.
Click to expand...

I have 1300 hours mostly in the Warrior, 250 hours in the 6A and I have $56k and one MILL coverage. My last bill was $1,193.00.
 
ccryan said:
I just finished my -8 and i'm getting $60K hull coverage and 1 mill liability for $1300 per year.
Click to expand...

Your just finished -8 is only worth $60K?

If you damage your aircraft, and it's cheaper for the insurance company to pay you $60K and then take possession of the aircraft and sell it to recover costs.

Let's say you had an invested $90,000.00 RV8 and you ran into a tractor left on the taxi way.....:D You had it insured for $60,000.00 to save money. The damage was a totaled right wing. The insurance company has the option to pay you your $60,000.00, take your RV8 and sell it for what they can get for it. They would expect close to $60,000.

This example might off balance a bit, but I am just trying to make a point. Be sure and ask your insurance company.
 
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