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Kit Price Increase After Order Before Ship

briand

briand

Well Known Member
Any one else have their kit price raised on them after they ordered and placed the down payment? I thought the price of the kit is the price when the order is placed not when its shipped. I ordered my fuse back in April and when I paid the last 75% 2 weeks ago they told me the price went up $95.00 and made me pay it. If this is Van's SOP then fine but I just want to be sure this is normal and not a mistake a vans employee made by charging me
 
I don't see that anywhere. Line one on the contract states: Kit prices are prices in effect the day order is received. Why mail me an invoice back in April telling me balance due if it can change.
 
briand said:
Any one else have their kit price raised on them after they ordered and placed the down payment? I thought the price of the kit is the price when the order is placed not when its shipped. I ordered my fuse back in April and when I paid the last 75% 2 weeks ago they told me the price went up $95.00 and made me pay it. If this is Van's SOP then fine but I just want to be sure this is normal and not a mistake a vans employee made by charging me
Click to expand...


Price based on ship day was their old policy. I thought they changed it when they announced their new prices 2006. My understanding was that the price would be fixed when you placed your order.
 
Looking at my order form

PLEASE READ AND SIGN BELOW.

Line 1. Kit prices subject to change without notice.
Line 3. Deposits do not fix kit prices. prices are those in effect at tine of shipment.
 
FrankK90989 said:
PLEASE READ AND SIGN BELOW.

Line 1. Kit prices subject to change without notice.
Line 3. Deposits do not fix kit prices. prices are those in effect at tine of shipment.
Click to expand...


Here is a link to the RV8 order form:

http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/rv-88a_order_form.pdf


Here is what is on the form:

1. Kit prices are prices in effect the day order is
received.
2. A 25% deposit must accompany kit orders.
3. Customer-instigated delays may result in price
increases.
4. Kits must be paid in full before they can be shipped.
5. $150.00 non-refundable if order is cancelled.
6. Payment in U.S. funds: check, money order,or
Visa/Mastercard.
7. Kit/plans orders must be in writing (mail or FAX).
8. Prices are FOB Aurora, Oregon.
9. Freight charges are collect.
10. Van?s Aircraft, Inc. cannot assist in certifying kits
outside the USA.
11. Prices are subject to change without notice.

Note #'s 1 and 3.
 
I did. Below is the one I used and the one that is still posted on their website. But.... I was told a new is coming out eventually and thats the one she said I have to go by. BTW, my fuse already shipped Monday. This is not how I would run a business and I hope its just a case of one crusader employed by vans. I don't want to beat this thread to death but would like to know if any one else had this happen and also if there are any rv-8 fuse buyers who have placed their order after April of this year and were charged the new rate (thats not posted yet).

Edit: I just clicked the link 2 seconds after I posted and it now links to the new onewhich is not the one I used when I placed the order in April. Instead of giving a 95.00 credit for not receiving the trim cable, they are now charging an additional 95.00 if you want it. Thats the increase. No trim cable credit anymore. They should still honor my original invoice and contract IMO.

http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/rv-88a_order_form.pdf
 
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What Has Van's Said?

I think if you pay in full and don't delay shipment you should get the price paid. I don't think you should have to pay extra for shipment delays due to lead times, production delays, etc. This is just a good business practice. Also, Van's is very good about announcing kit price increases (which normally occur at the beginning of the year) so I would be surprised if your increase is due to a kit price increase.

Now if you the customer creates delays and haven't paid in full, then I believe it fair to implement a "price at time of shipment" policy. This is to prevent you from putting a deposit on all of your subkits and then asking for shipment one, two, or more years down the road. You get the idea.

I am also wondering, if you ordered a quickbuild, if this might be due to increased freight costs resulting from price increases. If this is the case, I think Van's is justified in covering the additional expense.

Whatever is going on, you are certainly entitled to an explanation. Give them a call and nicely ask them what the increase is about. I am sure they will be happy to explain the additional expense.
 
It looks like Van's is moving the manual trim cable out of the finish kit and moving it into the fuselage kit. This probably makes sense as the fuselage is open and the cable easier to install prior to finish kit work. It would only make sense that the customer will have to pay for the cable in one of the kits. If you are not using manual trim, then your grief is more warranted. cl
 
Everytime I send an e-mail with specific questionss I get no reply to my questions just a bunch of ****. The person I have been e-mailing is Barb $#@^%^&, she is NOT an asset to the company.

I am not getting the man trim, I ordered the electric with the emp..

I ordered slow build and the 95.00 is for the 6/13/06 change to make the trim an extra charge. BTW, the trim cable was moved to the fuse on the last rev. back in March . The only difference between the form I used in April and the current form is; instead of getting a 95.00 credit for the cable you pay 95.00 if you want it. The base price ($6425.00) is the same. It boils down to van's charging me an extra 95.00 on my final payment (which I paid almost 2 weeks prior to the ship/due date) over and above the original invoiced amount. I noticed the overcharge when I checked my credit card statement online and saw a charge from Van's for 4943.00 instead of the 4848.00 that was the amount due on the invoice. I was never even told about a price increase prior to this and probably never would have been told.
 
Email one of the big guys!

I agree with Radomir, you need to email or, better yet, call one of the big guys. I doubt a price increase would be exactly the same amount as the trim cable, looks like someone made an honest mistake when putting the new numbers on the form. It just needs to be brought to the right person's attention!
Good Luck!
 
C'mon Briand, you're letting this escalate to a level beyond just a misunderstanding into a full blown grudge match.

You're now using language like "this lady is dillusional" which won't put management on your side once you get to talk to them.
Just accept that you didn't fully understand how they are now handling this item and get back to building. In the big scheme of things, $95 out of about $75,000 or so isn't going to make any difference on the outcome of the project.
If you get a chance to (nicely) explain your complaint with management, accept the outcome and move on.

Life's too short... let it go and simply pay close attention to any future orders.
 
Highflight said:
C'mon Briand, you're letting this escalate to a level beyond just a misunderstanding into a full blown grudge match.

You're now using language like "this lady is dillusional" which won't put management on your side once you get to talk to them.
Just accept that you didn't fully understand how they are now handling this item and get back to building. In the big scheme of things, $95 out of about $75,000 or so isn't going to make any difference on the outcome of the project.
If you get a chance to (nicely) explain your complaint with management, accept the outcome and move on.

Life's too short... let it go and simply pay close attention to any future orders.
Click to expand...


It is escalating because this lady flat out refuses to accept she made a mistake when she billed me for the final payment.

You haven't seen all the emails I have been getting. From the beginning she would side step EVERY direct question I asked and completely avoid giving me any answers I was looking for. Her answer would just be "there is a new form coming out soon, just wait". I didn't order when that form was out and I didn't agree to those terms. It is now no longer about the money but what is right, although the money is mine.

I paid full attention to the order. I have the order I will bring to work to scan and post. Every time I mentioned the order and invoice she would not respond to that. One time she even told me in so many words that the form changed back to giving the credit on the finish kit for my order and then they called a meeting that day and changed it back. You are the one here who has no idea what is going on and have seen no evidence.

I hate to use what-ifs, but what if it was a thousand dollars would that be too small of an amount for you too. I have to earn my money I have never been given anything and I will fight to the end for myself and what is right.


The original intent of this posting was to find out if they are known for this. In hind sight I would have e-mailed management after e-mail #2.


I will repeat this for the last time she charged my credit card (without my approval) for $95.00 more than the invoice that someone from vans mailed to me on 04/04/06. The line item for the trim cable credit is on the invoice as well as the order form with the rev. date of 3/1/06. If you look at their current order form for the slow build RV-8 it has a rev date of 6/13/06 my kit shipped on 6/13/06.

I will stop posting here now and wait for a management response. If they stick to there guns and somehow have an explanation that my feeble mind can't quite comprehend, I swear on everything that is me to post it here, accept my defeat and move on. This is very unlikely, I never "pick a fight" I can't or shouldn't win.
 
Resolution

Brian,

I understand your frustration. I've worked out problems with Scott on a couple of occasions. He will work with you to get this resolved and wants you to be a happy customer! Your dealing with an issue of principle here. We are alike in that I will fight over a principle before a dollar any day.

Hang in there and get back to building. It will get resolved.
 
You posted this issue so here's my opinion.

I see similar sour grapes comments come up during the 10-11 years I've been a Vans customer every time prices are raised... and I always find the dissenting comments a little silly. He (Van) could be selling these amazing kits for twice the price and most of us would pay. Van has an incredible product for a very good price. And it looks like Van covered himself on the price increase with the terms.

Rude, right or wrong - Van's (company) has the kit and you want it. Get over it, cut your losses and move on. You get into a shouting match with one of Van's people, and I could see and understand them not selling to you out of principle.

2 cents
 
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There is nothing wrong with expecting people/companies to do what they say. Van's certainly has the right to rasie their prices and set their own policies. They were the ones that changed their old policy of price at shipment to price at order. They should follow their policy.
 
So..................the bottom line

Was the kit available to be shipped in April, if the balance had been paid?

If so, then the increase is justified. I'm in the sheet metal business, and the cost for sheetmetal and aluminum sheet seems to be on a constant increase.

It would be foolish to not ask for an increase if the cost of materials had increased during the two months between a deposit & final payment.

If Van's doesn't ask for a small and reasonable increase, then they should just start charging double for their kits, as someone mentioned; to cover their rear end and bottom line, in disputes like this one.

edit: #3 - Customer instigated delay ---- would apply in this case.
 
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apatti said:
Price based on ship day was their old policy. I thought they changed it when they announced their new prices 2006. My understanding was that the price would be fixed when you placed your order.
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That's a yearly deal Van's has. If you place or order, AND PAY IN FULL, by December 31, that fixes the price.
 
L.Adamson said:
So..................the bottom line

Was the kit available to be shipped in April, if the balance had been paid?

QUOTE]



NO

I received a reply from Scott R and he knows nothing about a recent (6/13/06) price increase. I will wait to find out more. If they want double for the kits then I'll buy a F1. Competition, Boeing has it and so does Vans. Like appati says they set this new policy not me. I would have paid in full up front if thats whats required. Line 1 Line 1 Line 1 Line 1................ From what some people here are saying , even if you pay in full they should still have the right to raise the price if they want.

I think DR should institute a retroactive charge for all threads and every member who started a thread now owes him a dollar each. If you don't pay he will cut your head open and remove any info. he deems is his. :p. sound reasonable.
Click to expand...
 
william weesner said:
barb will be your absolute bestest freind should something go wrong with this or any future order trust me on that one. while she may be adhering to the company policy (see line 11) she is a great asset to vans just ask anyone whos order got damaged/ lost or otherwise misplaced.
every time i ordered there was always the possibility of increase and if it took place before kit shipment than it was mine to pay..
Click to expand...


The issue has nothing to do with line 11. Line 1 takes precedence over line 11. I (as any lawyer would) interpret line 11 to be in reference to future orders, otherwise why make statement #1?
I won't deal with her. Sorry but I still say you can't charge someones credit card with out their approval. I have received private messages that indicate she has a reputation. I won't bash, the PM's were sent privately for a reason.

I do a great job where I work too but if I acted like her I would be fired.
 
Public Bashing

Briand your public bashing has put you in a bad light. We all have problems from time to time. But your venom over $95.00 dollars makes me wonder about your motive.

Your handling of this matter, by publishing private emails and name calling puts you in a very bad light.

Most of us have worked with Barb and if you notice, all other responses about her have been positive. May be you should look in the mirror. It?s possible that she made a mistake, we all do from time to time. But your behavior is on this board is sub par. As RV builder's go we are a great group of people, I guess there will always be that one that makes the rest of us look better. You have lowered the bar. Your method of dealing with this situation is marginal at best.

Regretfully
Dan
St Louis MO.
 
briand. if you have an invoice with the price indicated for the product at the time you placed your order, and you placed that order with a credit card, then that should have been a contract for delivery of that product at that price period. A company should not have the ability to abritarily change that price because of their own policy changes. If prices had gone down would you have recieved a refund or credit? probably not. Also the use of your credit card without your consent is just bad business. Yes we are talking about less than $100 here but money lost is money lost and maybe Vans should have taken the high road here and said the customer is always right and made concessions to keep you happy. One angry customer can influence many more potential customers in a negative way. There are many fine people who work at Vans but sometimes I believe they are not all following the same page in the book regarding policy. This should have never gone beyond you and Vans and they are as much to blame for that as anybody. The $95 dollars we are talking about here could have been written off as good public relations by Vans in this case and everyone would have been the better for it!
 
Chickenlips said:
It looks like Van's is moving the manual trim cable out of the finish kit and moving it into the fuselage kit. This probably makes sense as the fuselage is open and the cable easier to install prior to finish kit work. It would only make sense that the customer will have to pay for the cable in one of the kits. If you are not using manual trim, then your grief is more warranted. cl
Click to expand...
Some of the stuff that's in the finishing kit makes absolutely no sense being there. Having 99% of the parts (not to mention the instructions) for the subpanel in the fuselage kit and then having that $3.99 piece (the "hat") in the fnishing kit (it even SAYS in the instrx it's in the finishing kit), makes no sense at all. Of course you could -- as I did -- or the part and have it deleted from the finishing kit, but that's still $4 handling and $2 shipping.

BTW, I got my fuse kit in March 2005 and the trim cable was in there.

Back to topic. The gentlemen says he paid the final 75%. Is that as a result of getting the request for payment (the one with the pink sheet in it)? If so, then, yeah, that clearly should be the final payment required. If this really isn't the case, then, yeah, that's a legit complaint and please let me know if this is the case.
 
rv63129 said:
Briand your public bashing has put you in a bad light. We all have problems from time to time. But your venom over $95.00 dollars makes me wonder about your motive.

Your handling of this matter, by publishing private emails and name calling puts you in a very bad light.

Most of us have worked with Barb and if you notice, all other responses about her have been positive. May be you should look in the mirror. It?s possible that she made a mistake, we all do from time to time. But your behavior is on this board is sub par. As RV builder's go we are a great group of people, I guess there will always be that one that makes the rest of us look better. You have lowered the bar. Your method of dealing with this situation is marginal at best.

Regretfully
Dan
St Louis MO.
Click to expand...


I disagree. One of the points of this board to exchange experiences and ideas. Briand didn't post until after several attempts to resolve the situation directly and privately with Van's. Even IF (?) he didn't handle the situation as perfectly as you would have doesn't warrant saying he has "lowered the bar".

As far as "But your venom over $95.00 dollars makes me wonder about your motive."... What "motive" could he be concealing? Is he coming up with his own kit design and just trying discredit his major competitor? We will all waste more than $95 for electricity to run the compressor for re-drilling parts we mess up. (At least I will... errr have... :p ) So, what possible motive could he be hiding? He has said it is principle based and I don't see any evidence to the contrary. I'll say again "There is NOTHING wrong with expecting companies/people to do what they say they are going to do."
 
briand said:
The issue has nothing to do with line 11. Line 1 takes precedence over line 11. I (as any lawyer would) interpret line 11 to be in reference to future orders, otherwise why make statement #1?
I won't deal with her. Sorry but I still say you can't charge someones credit card with out their approval. I have received private messages that indicate she has a reputation. I won't bash, the PM's were sent privately for a reason.

I do a great job where I work too but if I acted like her I would be fired.
Click to expand...
Gees, I emailed Scott myself and requested your refund. You should hear something soon. Are we done with this thread?
 
lifeoriley...are you willing to settle everyones disputes with Vans cause I've got several ! This does not need a reply, just pointing out that the problem really wasn't fixed in this way.
 
If you have several I recommend the same. Contact Scott, he will listen to whatever dispute you may have. Brian has a case and it needs to be settled. This thread really is not doing anyone a favor. Relax ... Van's is a great company and Scott will listen.

I'm done!
 
Something's not right here. The Web site with the prices on Van's site notes that prices are subject to change without notice, but the prices listed on the pdf forms are the same ones I saw in January.

If this particular order was placed in January or February-- and given the delivery date it seems to be late winter ... the order form filled out would match the ones I printed out in January. I saved them.

Here's the price at that time:

Empennage $1,495
Wing kit $5,800
Fuselage $5,560 (7a)
Finishing $5,500 (7a)

On the forms currently posted on the Web site, these are the current prices:

Empennage $1,495
Wing $5,800
Fuselage $5,560
Finishing $5,500

The numbers on the Web page at Van's match these numbers.

I think there's a misunderstanding involved here rather than conspiracy.

Could the original poster please post EXACTLY how much he has paid for this order (not including shipping?). Please include any additional options.
 
I was trying not to post again until I heard from Scott but here goes. BTW, I was trying not to list Barbs full name but I did it not thinking. Sorry for that Barb. I will say before I answer Bob. C's question that I do not believe there is a conspiracy here as that would require the involvement of more than one person. I think it is a case of Barb not being told that the rest of Van's decided to place the man. trim cable in the fuse kit starting 3/1/06 and instead of admitting she wasn't aware of the change and issuing a refund, she decided to make up some story about it.

Heres the timeline for the RV-8 order form changes for 2006:

1/1/06 - new prices put in effect

3/1/06 - man. trim cable placed in the fuse kit and removed from the finish kit (this was to make all the RV models the same), no other changes to order form that I can see.

4/1/06 I placed order for fuse using the most recent form (rev. date 3/1/06)

4/4/06 Invoice received which matched my order form exactly and had a final payment due date of 6/12/06

6/2/06 I authorized final payment of 4848.00 on my CC (which was actually charged 4943.00)

6/13/06 Someone at vans changed the RV-8 order form to make the man. trim cable an additional 95.00 instead of the 95.00 credit that was previously offered for not needing the cable.

Take a look at the order form and you will see the rev. date at the top and that it is the only one that does not offer a credit for omitting the cable. Rev. date is on pgs. 1 and 3 and the options are listed on page 2.

http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/rv-88a_order_form.pdf
 
Could the original poster please post EXACTLY how much he has paid for this order (not including shipping?). Please include any additional options.[/QUOTE]

I was going to scan my order forms at work Friday but the scanner was being worked on all day. I left the forms in my drawer at work so I'm going from memory now.

The order is for an RV-8 Fuse.

Base Price: 6425.00
Options :
Groun Adj. Pedals -200.00
Static Air +18.50
Elec. Ail. Trim +260.00
Ele. Ele. Trim Credit -95.00

Total Options -16.50
subtotal 6408.5

Crating +55.00

Total 6463.50

I'm not going to keep this thread going I will post the outcome and that will be it.
I now have to go and find out the deal with my flap spars and complain about the bad flap dwg. in another post. I hope I didn't make anyone here too mad so they will intentionally give me bad technical info. now.

William Weesner, I'm gonna be careful with the use of any info you offer. :D JK.
 
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