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Click, click?.again!!

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
So back in September, we found ourselves with the Val at Van?s, and when Louise hit the start switch to taxi to the fuel pump, all she got was a ?click?. We told that story already in another thread, and the cure was a new starter solenoid. Things were just great, and the airplane has been cranking better than ever. Better, that is, until, I hit the start switch the other morning up at Big Bear for a little local flying, and all I got was a strong ?click? ? no starter motion. I watched the voltages on the busses as I tried again ? and got no significant drop ? so I knew right off that there was no current draw through the starter motor. I safed everything and went out to wiggle the prop ? nothing locked up there, everything was fine ? it was just as if the starter wasn?t doing a thing.

Since I obviously wasn?t going anywhere quickly, I pulled the cowling (always carry enough tools to at least get the cowl off) and started poking around. It didn?t take long ? as I put my hand on the cable connection to the starter, I noticed that it turned just a bit. Looking closer, it appeared that the nut wasn?t really tight. I got out a half inch wrench and spun the nut off ? and off fell a burned half of a lock washer. The nut had a little slag on the ?inside? face. Obviously, someone (and I am about the only one that maintains this bird) hadn?t gotten the nut quite tight enough (it might have been when I was doing the work at Van?s, or back when I changed jugs last spring) and because it was loose, there wasn?t a good electrical connection for the high amps seen at the starter motor. Eventually, the arc tracks built up enough resistance that it wouldn?t kick the starter in. A visit to a neighboring hangar produced a replacement lock washer, and in five minutes I was ready to put the cowling back on. We were airborne ten minutes later, enjoying a smooth, cool day above the mountains!

Lots of folks experience slow cranking or poor starting performance in their birds. There is a list of things to check when this happens ? starting with the battery, cable connections, solenoid, more cable connections, and the starter. In my experience, the problem is rarely a major component (battery, starter, etc). SkyTec has a great troubleshooting guide that almost always leads you to a bad connection or bad solenoid (which, it has been pointed out frequently; we really don?t need with the new-style starters). Even batteries frequently aren?t the cause ? and new ones get more expensive every day. In this case, I cleaned up the contacting faces with my pocket knife and tightened things up. Next time, I?ll have a little piece of emery cloth in my ?away bag?, just in case. Once again, the lesson is ? start with the simple stuff. Oh, and make sure that your connections are tight!

Paul
 
so i guess this time it was the loose nut on the starter caused by the loose nut behind the stick? :D

bob burns

N82RB RV-4
 
Sounds like you had ME helping!

Well, I would make some snappy remark, but this has happened to me enough times that I will use this opportunity to keep quiet.

Now, I have a simple 1 step procedure for electrical items that don't seem to perform: is it plugged in? If it is (all the way thru the system), then it is time to get the credit card out, as the smoke has leaked out of that particular device.

Glad to hear you found the problem right away!

Carry on!
Mark
 
zebras and horses

My Mom worked in the medical field.
She used to say, "Don't look for zebras in a horse coral."
 
Same thing happened to me the other day. First thing I thought! Oh boy the starter is gone. Popped the top cowl and started looking around. The cable on the starter contacter could be moved from side to side. Tightened the nut and the engine started.
 
Solenoid - Skytec

bad solenoid (which, it has been pointed out frequently; we really don?t need with the new-style starters).

Paul

Um... what? How would you wire that? My Infinity grip has a 20 AWG wire I believe and I put an 18 AWG on my key switch. I have a 4 gauge going through my solenoid. Please let me know who that works sans the solenoid.

Thanks in advance.
 
Um... what? How would you wire that? My Infinity grip has a 20 AWG wire I believe and I put an 18 AWG on my key switch. I have a 4 gauge going through my solenoid. Please let me know who that works sans the solenoid.

Thanks in advance.


Take a look at SkyTec's web page on wiring - they make some funny comments about how "we" in the RV community wire our starters...

http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_Diag.htm

Who was QC? Did the procedure paperwork have a QC stamp?:p

Oh, don't get me started on QC stamps! Seen too many of them pencil-whipped over the years....:eek:
 
Same Issue

I had almost exactly the same issue.
The symptoms were slightly different though.
Depending on conditions, the starter would take a second or two to engage sometimes.
I put it down to a stuck solenoid. So i bought a new one. When I went to replace it, the first thing i found was the nut on the solenoid going to the starter motor, backed off about 1-2mm and welded in place from the arcing!
new nut and washer, problem solved. Another thing I run a spanner over at annual now.
cheers
 
I have studied the diagrams from skytec. I thinks its all about the new starters having their own contactor internally. Their wiring diagram would work fine. One thing I do like about the alternative vans way is that you do not have that high ampere capable wire going to the starter hot all the time that the master switch is on. In the vans dwg. it would only be hot when the start button is energized. I kinda like that idea. Either way would work just fine though.

bird
 
I have a skytec 149NL on my Cherokee, and I got stuck 700nm from home this weekend when it wouldn't start.

At first I thought my battery was dead because all I'd get was a click. I took it out of the plane and brought it somewhere to charge, and then back in the plane, for another click.

At this point I'm thinking that battery was toast so I had the mx shop on the field sell me a very expensive new G35. Installed that battery and... click.

Turns out the starter was throwing out the gear but not turning. I'm not sure if it's a dead spot in the commutator or bad brushes or what. I went through a couple of cycles of having it throw out the gear and then using the prop to turn the starter through a little bit as the gear retracted, and eventually I coaxed it into starting.
 
Ian, go to the Skytec website and using their troubleshooting guide, see if following it you would still have changed the battery or identified the starter issue.

I do not have it in front of me so cannot determine if I would have diagnosed it properly. Perhaps the fact that the prop never turned is one factor. Add in a good battery voltage and perhaps you could have ruled out the battery as a problem.
 
Take a look at SkyTec's web page on wiring - they make some funny comments about how "we" in the RV community wire our starters...

http://www.skytecair.com/Wiring_Diag.htm

I have researched those as well when designing (following directions I mean...) my starting system. They all use the solenoid though, that I can see. However they do not use the Indicator "I" post. We don't need to they tell me laughing under their breath, followed by how much they love Vans. :) So I ask again so I am not missing something, or so I may learn something: What did you mean "no solenoid?" :confused:

Thanks again for your time.
 
So I ask again so I am not missing something, or so I may learn something: What did you mean "no solenoid?" :confused:

Thanks again for your time.

Bob - take a look at "Diagram A" at the top of the column - they have a MASTER solenoid, but no STARTER solenoid - they use the solenoid on the starter itself to manage that load. And yes, the big, fat wire is hot all the way from the firewall to the front of the Lycoming anytime the master is on. Personally, I still use a starter solenoid on the firewall, but that is mostly becasue that is how we have always done it.
 
Regarding the 'vans wiring' referred to in the skytec document:

With the conventional starter wiring and permanent magnet starters it is possible that when the key and main starter relay/contactor releases, the spinning starter will generate sufficient electrical energy in back emf to hold the starter solenoid engaged and therefore the pinion with the flywheel.

If the starter is held engaged too long and the engine drives the starter to sufficient speed it may take a short time to disengage at low engine speeds. It is conceivable that the pinion may remain engaged indefinitely at some higher engine rpm.

The Vans wiring will resolve this issue - the pinion solenoid is powered from an independent terminal on the contractor, terminal 'I'.

That said it is not usually an issue. My own aircraft has a PM starter with conventional wiring and I have heard the starter hold in but not for more than a second. Like most people I try to release the key switch as early as I can, but now I also listen out for the engaged pinion.

Clearly Skytec do not believe this to be an issue.
 
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