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  #1  
Old 10-11-2018, 02:43 AM
Piper J3's Avatar
Piper J3 Piper J3 is offline
 
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Location: Hinckley, Ohio
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Default E15 Vs. E10 Mogas for 912ULS

I thought I'd start a thread on this subject now that<SNIP> 15% alcohol blend <will be required> in auto fuels. <edited per posting rules>

From SERVICE INSTRUCTION SELECTION OF SUITABLE OPERATING FLUIDS FOR ROTAX® ENGINE TYPE 912 AND 914 (SERIES)E10 (Unleaded gasoline blended with 10 % ethanol)... In addition to AVGAS and unleaded automotive fuel (Mogas) the ROTAX® 912/914 series of engines are now approved for use with E10. Fuels that contain more than 10% ethanol blend have not been tested by BRP-Powertrain and are not permitted for use.

I sent an email to Rotax Technical Support telling them the United States will will soon be switching to year-round E15 auto fuels. I will report soonest when I hear back from Rotax. I also sent an email to Lockwood Aviation asking same question.

I also wonder what Van's has to say regarding increased ethanol in the RV-12 fuel system. I believe Van's runs E10 Mogas in the RV-12 demo plane. This will also be a concern with the new RV-12iS.

Aside from compatibility, the increase in ethanol will reduce engine power slightly and also increase fuel consumption slightly as energy content (BTU) for alcohol is less than that of gasoline. On a positive note, added alcohol will increase fuel octane rating.

Other concerns include long-term storage and vapor lock.

Just some thoughts to get the discussion going...
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RV-12 E-LSA #120058 AWC Jul 2012 - Bought Flying Oct 2015 with 48TT - Hobbs now 406

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Last edited by rv7boy : 10-15-2018 at 12:48 PM. Reason: Political comments removed
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  #2  
Old 10-11-2018, 04:29 AM
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rongawer rongawer is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper J3 View Post
I thought I'd start a thread on this subject now that <SNIP> 15% alcohol blend in auto fuels will be required. <edited>

From SERVICE INSTRUCTION SELECTION OF SUITABLE OPERATING FLUIDS FOR ROTAX® ENGINE TYPE 912 AND 914 (SERIES)E10 (Unleaded gasoline blended with 10 % ethanol)... In addition to AVGAS and unleaded automotive fuel (Mogas) the ROTAX® 912/914 series of engines are now approved for use with E10. Fuels that contain more than 10% ethanol blend have not been tested by BRP-Powertrain and are not permitted for use.

I sent an email to Rotax Technical Support telling them the United States will will soon be switching to year-round E15 auto fuels. I will report soonest when I hear back from Rotax. I also sent an email to Lockwood Aviation asking same question.

I also wonder what Van's has to say regarding increased ethanol in the RV-12 fuel system. I believe Van's runs E10 Mogas in the RV-12 demo plane. This will also be a concern with the new RV-12iS.

Aside from compatibility, the increase in ethanol will reduce engine power slightly and also increase fuel consumption slightly as energy content (BTU) for alcohol is less than that of gasoline. On a positive note, added alcohol will increase fuel octane rating.

Other concerns include long-term storage and vapor lock.

Just some thoughts to get the discussion going...
Good discussion topic Jim. I cringe at the thought of being forced to use ethanol in gas, mostly for the loss of efficiency and the increased corrosive effect of it with aluminum. While it does increase specific fuel consumption (meaning more fuel burned per hour for the same power setting), it increases engine power, which is an effect of the increased oxygenation of the fuel during combustion and contributes to the increased octane, which you noted.

A good read on all of this is INFLUENCE OF COMPOSITION OF GASOLINE – ETHANOL BLENDS ON PARAMETERS OF INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINES.

<SNIP>I'm disappointed the FAA's PAFI has been now pushed out until 2020. I was very hopeful to have unleaded avgas in the 100 octane range.

For us UL Power engine users, the engines are good for 15% ethanol, so I guess I'll just grin and bear it.

One last thing to consider, just because the EPA has been ordered to raise the limit from 10% to 15%, and from winter months to all year, does not mean all states will move to it. I highly doubt that the California Air Research Board will go for it, most notably due to the increase smog in the summer months in the already smoggy valleys out here.
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Last edited by rv7boy : 10-15-2018 at 11:24 PM. Reason: Political statements removed
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  #3  
Old 10-11-2018, 07:57 AM
Mark33 Mark33 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rongawer View Post
....For us UL Power engine users, the engines are good for 15% ethanol, so I guess I'll just grin and bear it......
Hey Ron, this is a total thread drift, but how do you like your UL Power engine? Have you ever had a Rotax that you can compare and contrast it to? If you'd like to just send me a PM or even start a new thread on the subject, that'll be fine.

Thanks,
Mark
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  #4  
Old 10-11-2018, 08:15 AM
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DaleB DaleB is offline
 
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First of all, could we maybe, pretty please, have just one forum where we don't have a political spin on topics? It gets really, really tiresome. [Agreed, Dale. Rather than delete this entire thread due to rules violation, the thread has been edited to remove the political comments. ]

Second, considering that I can still buy 93 octane unleaded alcohol-free gas at the pump 1/2 mile from the airport, I'm not particularly worried about everything going to E15. There's no requirement that all gasoline will be blended with ethanol at all, let alone 15%.
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Last edited by rv7boy : 10-15-2018 at 12:59 PM. Reason: Explanation of thread editing
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  #5  
Old 10-11-2018, 03:12 PM
rv9builder rv9builder is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleB View Post
Considering that I can still buy 93 octane unleaded alcohol-free gas at the pump 1/2 mile from the airport, I'm not particularly worried about everything going to E15.
Unfortunately, 93 octane unleaded alcohol-free gas isn't readily available in all parts of the country.
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  #6  
Old 10-11-2018, 03:28 PM
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9GT 9GT is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaleB View Post
First of all, could we maybe, pretty please, have just one forum where we don't have a political spin on topics? It gets really, really tiresome.
I agree.
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  #7  
Old 10-11-2018, 03:34 PM
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DaleB DaleB is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv9builder View Post
Unfortunately, 93 octane unleaded alcohol-free gas isn't readily available in all parts of the country.
Granted, and it's far from universally available here. There's one gas station chain that I know of that sells it (and my mistake, it's 91 not 93). But I don't think ethanol is required by law or regulation, existing or proposed, in all gasoline in any amount.
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  #8  
Old 10-11-2018, 04:43 PM
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Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper J3 View Post
I thought I'd start a thread on this subject now that <SNIP> 15% alcohol blend <will be required> in auto fuels. ...
As I understood the announcement, E-15 is not mandatory or replacing E-10, it will just be available nationwide. There are a lot of vehicles on the road that were not designed for E-15.
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Last edited by rv7boy : 10-15-2018 at 11:17 PM. Reason: changed E85 to E-15; OP’s quote edited to remove the politics
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  #9  
Old 10-11-2018, 04:47 PM
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Mel Mel is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Buchanan View Post
As I understood the announcement, E85 is not mandatory or replacing E-10, it will just be available nationwide. There are a lot of vehicles on the road that were not designed for E85.
I think the debate here is between E-10 and E-15, not E-85.
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  #10  
Old 10-11-2018, 06:37 PM
BillL BillL is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Piper J3 View Post
Other concerns include long-term storage and vapor lock.
Ethanol is added to reduce evaporative HC emissions. It has a lower vapor pressure. Stability is another matter as auto gas is not very stable as it is. Vodka seems to last pretty well.

Combustion, power, bsfc, starting and ability to fumigate the intake charge (cold weather starting) would certainly expected to be part of the test protocols.

Elastomers should not be an issue, unless the gasoline side of the formulation changes oddly.

It would have better water tolerance as there is more ethanol to hold it.
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