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  #11  
Old 05-01-2017, 09:50 AM
rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Hubbard Oregon
Posts: 7,863
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Proper installation of wing tips on any RV requires primarily one thing.... having the aileron fixed into the neutral position so the the training edge of the wing tip can be aligned vertically and in roll to it.

How this is done doesn't matter.

Using the template supplied in the RV-14 wing kit works well (it was used to install the tips on the tail dragger prototype).

Installation errors are possible with any method if the aileron was not confirmed to be in the nominal neutral position or if it moved during the install process.

Mis-alignment of the tip trailing edge after final assembly of the aircraft and installation of the flaps and ailerons is likely caused by the positions of the ailerons being compromised to account for twist in the flaps, ailerons, or both. Not the best way to build an airplane but there seems to be a large tolerance of variation without it have much effect on the flying qualities other than probably a tiny bit more drag.

Point being..... if installing the tips after flap and aileron rigging produces a better result then there are some construction errors that are being compensated for, rather than fixing the actual problem......


Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Martin View Post
When I checked out the prototype RV14 at AirVenture the first time it was there, I looked at the alignment of the ailerons, flaps etc and was told at the time that this plane was different, that things would not line up.
Without specifics I can't comment on what you saw, but a lot of experimenting with aileron rigging has been done since then.
It was discovered that because of the reflex position of the ailerons on the RV-14 coupled with just a bit of elasticity in the control system, the ailerons actually deflect downward very slightly in high speed flight so once the airplane was fully built the ailerons were rigged so that on the ground they will look about 3/32nds" high on each side relative to the wing tips. In flight they are exactly in trail.
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Scott McDaniels
Hubbard, Oregon
RV-6A (aka "Junkyard Special ")
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  #12  
Old 05-11-2017, 07:20 AM
Tom Martin Tom Martin is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,423
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I have the wings temporarily on the aircraft using hardware bolts rather then the final close tolerance bolts.
I set the flaps in the full up, reflux, position as per the instructions.
The wing to stick push rods lengths were set as per plans, as were the flap push rods.
With the stick in neutral, (elevators in the neutral position) the right aileron lined up perfectly with the flaps. The left aileron was trailing edge low by less then 1/8". This is pretty darn good for having followed the plans and using the aileron jig to set the wing push tubes. Minor adjustments from here would have made the tips line up if I had placed them on the wings in the jig.
I have not yet installed the tips, that is the next job but so far things are working out really well. Any twist in either of the flaps would mean that the alignment with tips already installed on the wings would make it difficult to line things up.
My suggestion would be to wait until the wings are mounted not the aircraft before final tip fitting. There really is no reason to do the tips in the jigs, it is no easier then doing them in the jig then on the assembled aircraft.
These are the closest aligning control surfaces, from an initial fitting, that I have yet encountered; Awesome.
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Tom Martin RV1 pilot 4.6hours!
CPL & IFR rated
EVO F1 Rocket 1000 hours,
2010 SARL Rocket 100 race, average speed of 238.6 knots/274.6mph
RV4, RV7, RV10, two HRIIs and five F1 Rockets
RV14 Tail dragger

Fairlea Field
St.Thomas, Ontario Canada, CYQS
fairleafield@gmail.com
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  #13  
Old 05-20-2017, 06:15 PM
Tom Martin Tom Martin is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
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I used the hinge method of attaching the wing tips. Quite a bit more work but looks really nice. Not sure if I would really recommend it as you would have to be taking your wing tips off quite a few times to make up for the extra initial time. There is likely a small weight penalty with hinges but this is offset by not having to deal with the small #6 screws, which can be difficult at times.
When I got the tips in their permanent position both tips were about 1/8" higher on the outside then next to the aileron. Ok but not a nice sight line when the surfaces are lined up. The irony about surface alignment on the RV14 is that they are only going to line up perfectly when the elevators are in the neutral position. Thus when you have the stick tied back on the ramp at AirVenture it will appear that you messed up on the rigging. This may be what I saw on the demonstrator.
Nothing wrong with the system it is just a quirk of the controls on the 14, and also, I believe, on the 10.
Anyways, both tips were also about 1/4" long so first off I trimmed them for length and then I slit the end.



The next step is to rough up the inside trailing edge with sand paper and install the tip back on the wing. Spread the trailing edge and insert a generous amount of flox and epoxy, a stiff mix. Then using two 6' angles I clamp them to the tips, ailerons and the outside bit of the flaps. This is done on both sides of the aircraft at the same time to insure that everything lines up.
The next day the tips are removed and an added 3" wide strip of glass and resin is inserted in the aft end of the wing tip, over the flox.

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Tom Martin RV1 pilot 4.6hours!
CPL & IFR rated
EVO F1 Rocket 1000 hours,
2010 SARL Rocket 100 race, average speed of 238.6 knots/274.6mph
RV4, RV7, RV10, two HRIIs and five F1 Rockets
RV14 Tail dragger

Fairlea Field
St.Thomas, Ontario Canada, CYQS
fairleafield@gmail.com
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  #14  
Old 05-20-2017, 06:43 PM
MED MED is online now
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Aiken, SC
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I like the idea of the angles to align the tip trailing edges with the ailerons, but their use seems to be in conflict with Scott's comment that the ailerons will be 3/32" high compared with the tips. Not sure how to achieve that.
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  #15  
Old 05-20-2017, 07:02 PM
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czechsix czechsix is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Spring Hill, KS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MED View Post
I like the idea of the angles to align the tip trailing edges with the ailerons, but their use seems to be in conflict with Scott's comment that the ailerons will be 3/32" high compared with the tips. Not sure how to achieve that.
My take is that you align the flaps, ailerons, and wingtips during rigging/fitting.
Then if the ailerons are deflected slightly TE low in flight, you just shorten each aileron pushrod by a turn or two.

Put another way, you really want the flaps and wingtips aligned well...the ailerons are easy to adjust slightly up or down later on as needed to be aligned with the flaps/wingtips in flight.
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Mark Navratil
Spring Hill, KS
RV-8A N2D #80583 - built/flew/sold
RV-14A #140017 - wings complete, empacone in progress...
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  #16  
Old 09-25-2018, 05:24 PM
JHartline JHartline is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Carrollton, GA 5GA2
Posts: 180
Default Slow learner on this...

I just got my flaps, ailerons, and unmodified wingtips installed per the plans. Like others I could only get 8-deg on my flaps versus the depicted 7. But they are symmetrical within 0.3 degrees at the fully up position. I'm calling that good. With the control stick in the fully neutral position both aileron TE's are above the flap TE and wingtip TE by about 3/32, maybe a tad more, but they are spot on symmetrical.

I have not measured exactly but the eyeball says the flap and wingtip TE's are very close to matched. Probably not off enough to do any adjustments (I hope.)

I'm going to do some more measuring but this seems to match what others on this thread were trying to achieve...and what Vans says is the desired configuration. Agree, disagree??

If this is all correct Vans gets all the credit...I just followed the instructions.
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James Hartline
Carrollton, GA 5GA2
RV-14 - Finish and FWF in progress
T-Bolt IO-390
Maule MX7-180
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  #17  
Old 09-25-2018, 07:18 PM
Bavafa Bavafa is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Sacramento, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JHartline View Post
I just got my flaps, ailerons, and unmodified wingtips installed per the plans. Like others I could only get 8-deg on my flaps versus the depicted 7. But they are symmetrical within 0.3 degrees at the fully up position. I'm calling that good. With the control stick in the fully neutral position both aileron TE's are above the flap TE and wingtip TE by about 3/32, maybe a tad more, but they are spot on symmetrical.

I have not measured exactly but the eyeball says the flap and wingtip TE's are very close to matched. Probably not off enough to do any adjustments (I hope.)

I'm going to do some more measuring but this seems to match what others on this thread were trying to achieve...and what Vans says is the desired configuration. Agree, disagree??

If this is all correct Vans gets all the credit...I just followed the instructions.
Not quit at this step but hopefully will be very soon and I was wondering if the 7 degree for the flap is down from the longeron or up from the longeron. Judging from the drawing is hard to tell but I am guessing that it is down.
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  #18  
Old 09-25-2018, 07:23 PM
JHartline JHartline is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Carrollton, GA 5GA2
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You got it...it's down. At this point (reflex) your flap leading edge will be resting against the rear wing spar. Can't go up any more.
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James Hartline
Carrollton, GA 5GA2
RV-14 - Finish and FWF in progress
T-Bolt IO-390
Maule MX7-180

Last edited by JHartline : 09-25-2018 at 07:25 PM. Reason: To change something
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  #19  
Old 09-25-2018, 08:14 PM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Schaumburg, IL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimO View Post
You should be able to install the wingtips and use the jig and rig the ailerons with the flaps on the wing cradle. You will most likely want the ailerons and wingtips both aligned with the flaps with the flaps in reflex position, and that can be determined by just mounting the flaps while on the wing cradles.
I would not spend the time to completely rig them on the cradle though. Rig them to a close approximation but then do the final rigging with everything assembled on the plane. You will need to have the stick (elevator) neutral when you rig the ailerons for the final rigging because the ailerons will change position slightly with nose-up/down stick movement. But since everything should line up with the flaps (assuming you don't have twist in your flaps) you can rig them on the cradle.

One thing to check...with the flaps mounted on the wing in the cradle, look at your rivet lines against the top wing skin. You can tell then if you have twist in the flaps. The question then is, how bad is the twist? With a lot of twist, you won't necessarily want to rig your ailerons and wingtips to the flaps. Use the jig to see what the proper position should be. If you're all straight, you should have the jig in place and flaps in reflex and it'll all line up pretty well.
+1

This is what I did on the 10 wings (same a 14). The cruise "in trail" baseline is the flap fully pressed against the rear spar. Be sure there is no binding and the flap is hitting the spar. Then use a spring clamp to hold the aileron parallel to the flap and install the wingtips to match the aileron. Rigging comes later. Here you are just installing the wingtips in the designed wing In trail (actually -3* from) position. rigging with the bell crank is not relevant for this step and I would not use the aileron alignment tool for this step. That said, it is a logical next step to rig the bellcrank while you have everything in position and gravity is helping to hold the flap against the spar, as well has holding the bellcrank against the alignment jig.

It's actually easier on wing stand, as gravity holds the flap against the spar.

Larry
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Last edited by lr172 : 09-25-2018 at 08:20 PM.
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