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Negative G flight

Michaelpk3

Well Known Member
Question...

I have a RV-7A with o-360 and a friend of mine who is ex military pilot went up with me and he was doing some aerobatic menouvers. We did some rolls, loops and hammerheads. We had a few quick moments of negative G's. (no issues)

how quickly does the engine sputter from lack of fuel? Does carb float bowl dump all the fuel? I was worried but it didn't seem to phase him!
 
You don't need to go negative - a carbureted engine won't even keep running at zero-G - we used to do parabola's and at an entry speed of around 120 knots, you could get about six seconds of parabolic flight to a 45 nose low position. The engine would stop firing maybe halfway through. The good news is that once you get some positive G back on, it starts itself right back up.
 
If you have a standard breather, you would have a belly covered in oil or you probably didn't go negative even though it might have felt like it.
 
how quickly does the engine sputter from lack of fuel? Does carb float bowl dump all the fuel?
The float bowl is not dumping the fuel, it's the float itself that shuts off fuel supply to the bowl in the full up position (or down as in upside down).
Someone correct me if I am mistaken.

Less than that. With a carb it's pretty much instantaneous upon hitting negative G.

That is my understanding as well
 
I don't even need to go negative before it sputters or stops completely. I have been practicing the Primary IAC sequence and it almost always sputters/ quits on the 45 degree downline inverted portion of the half Cuban 8. Some other maneuvers that my non-injected O-320 does not like are humpty bumps, hammerheads (at the top where I'm close to or at zero G's) or sometimes even the top of a loop if I'm sloppy and don't carry enough energy.

It's very frustrating - to the point where I almost don't want to do aerobatics anymore until I get fuel injection. I've had the engine quit on me 2-3 times. Once, the prop was not wind-milling and I had to engage the starter to get it started again. No fun. And a bit unnerving.

I still haven't figured out why some days it'll tend to quit/ hesitate more than others. Maybe poor energy management on my part?? Does it help to have the boost pump on? Or mixture at full rich? Maybe someone more experienced can chime in.

Brian
RV4 O-320, Raven "half" system, EFII single EI
Dues gladly paid
 
engine quit

Brian, when I bought my airplane 13 years ago, it was carbureted and sputtered and quit just like you described until I went with the Ellison throttle body, which required very little extra work for installation since it uses the same fuel pump, etc. I couldn't do a hammerhead without the engine and prop stopping cold.:eek: No Fun.
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower AL
 
Bill, tell me about Ellison throttle body. I have been thinking of upgrading. Any more noticeable throttle response? Fuel economy change? You say it handles light aerobatics better?
 
Brian, when I bought my airplane 13 years ago, it was carbureted and sputtered and quit just like you described until I went with the Ellison throttle body, which required very little extra work for installation since it uses the same fuel pump, etc. I couldn't do a hammerhead without the engine and prop stopping cold.:eek: No Fun.
Bill McLean
RV-4 slider
lower AL

Yes Bill, I've been doing a bit of reading up on the Ellison TB (and other brands) and the impression I'm getting is that it's not so straight-forward to install and tune. I've read of some people's experiences of lots of frustration getting them to run right. I'd hate to find myself in that situation, which is why I haven't pulled the trigger on it yet. I heard that mods will need to be made to air box/ snout on the cowl, throttle cable geometry, etc.
 
ellyson

Brian, it was very easy for me since I didn't do it, but I watched my mechanic do it. It's obviously easier than adding fuel injection. Did not have to change the airbox or cowling. A little routing mods for throttle and mixture. Getting the idle mixture right is a little tricky initially to keep the engine running smooth, but once set, I've had years of no trouble. When it got too lean once, the engine would stumble at idle, but an 1/8 turn on the adjustment screw cleared it up. The idle adjustment on the TB is independent of normal operating mixture adjustment in the cockpit. Pat Coggins (Hog) converted to a TB and posted the experience on this site. I didn't do a good comparison between the carb and TB since I rarely flight straight and level very long to find out. Randy King was flying Sportsman with a carb, and was scaring us to death with the engine sputtering and quiting. He's going to fuel injection.
Hope this helps,

Bill (willyeyeball)
 
Brian, it was very easy for me since I didn't do it, but I watched my mechanic do it. It's obviously easier than adding fuel injection. Did not have to change the airbox or cowling. A little routing mods for throttle and mixture. Getting the idle mixture right is a little tricky initially to keep the engine running smooth, but once set, I've had years of no trouble. When it got too lean once, the engine would stumble at idle, but an 1/8 turn on the adjustment screw cleared it up. The idle adjustment on the TB is independent of normal operating mixture adjustment in the cockpit. Pat Coggins (Hog) converted to a TB and posted the experience on this site. I didn't do a good comparison between the carb and TB since I rarely flight straight and level very long to find out. Randy King was flying Sportsman with a carb, and was scaring us to death with the engine sputtering and quiting. He's going to fuel injection.
Hope this helps,

Bill (willyeyeball)

Thanks Bill. If I was retired and had all the time in the world, I would give it a try. But for now, I barely even have enough time to fly. I'm half-way decent with tools, but no where near being a real builder or an A/P, so I have to be very cautious about deciding which projects I can take on. If your mechanic (or anyone else who's reading this) is interested in installing it for me, please PM me! ;)
 
No power? No problem!

Two years ago I was flying at the Kathy Jaffe Challenge contest in New Jersey. There I met 79 year old Randol Webb, flying his bone stock J-3 Cub. Randol regularly flies in the Sportsman category in his CJ-6 and occasionally in the Cub. "I have to take two breaks when flying Sportsman in the Cub", he told me. "That's just to re-start the engine and climb for altitude prior to the next maneuver!"

Having a carbureted engine does NOT stop Randol. No reason it should stop you!

(Having said that, I do appreciate fuel injection!):D
 
Two years ago I was flying at the Kathy Jaffe Challenge contest in New Jersey. There I met 79 year old Randol Webb, flying his bone stock J-3 Cub. Randol regularly flies in the Sportsman category in his CJ-6 and occasionally in the Cub. "I have to take two breaks when flying Sportsman in the Cub", he told me. "That's just to re-start the engine and climb for altitude prior to the next maneuver!"

Having a carbureted engine does NOT stop Randol. No reason it should stop you!

(Having said that, I do appreciate fuel injection!):D

Ron, so does that mean that I should be able to do the entire primary sequence without the engine stumbling or quitting? And if it quits, is it b/c of poor technique/ energy management on my part?

I find that on the inverted 45-degree down line of the half Cuban-8, I need a hair of forward stick to keep it straight and that is enough to cause my engine to quit. I want to continue practicing, but am getting discouraged (or at least annoyed) b/c I have not yet been able to do the entire sequence without the engine hesitating or quitting.

Brian
 
Ron, so does that mean that I should be able to do the entire primary sequence without the engine stumbling or quitting? And if it quits, is it b/c of poor technique/ energy management on my part?

I find that on the inverted 45-degree down line of the half Cuban-8, I need a hair of forward stick to keep it straight and that is enough to cause my engine to quit. I want to continue practicing, but am getting discouraged (or at least annoyed) b/c I have not yet been able to do the entire sequence without the engine hesitating or quitting.

Brian

The half Cuban and the aileron roll, properly done should cause your carbureted engine to quit momentarily and you will likely throw some oil on the belly. I know that's disconcerting at first, but the engine will recover quickly and the oil wipes off. The alternative is to sacrifice a proper figure and a better grade for carrying slight positive G during those rolls. Once you get hooked on IAC competition you will be saving $$$ for fuel injection and an inverted oil system! Have fun!
 
Ellison TB

Just FWIW, I finished my o-360 RV 7 almost 2 years ago with an Ellison throttle body, and had no issues with the install at all. It bolts on and goes. The only hassle was the need to fab a bell crank to slide the throttle on my particular install. Took about 3 hours to fab, and I'm slow! Love the way the thing runs in any attitude, super simple, and requires no attention. The Ellison came highly recommended to me by several acro pilots who had used them in the past. Glad I did! In fact, I bought a spare just in case, but it is collecting dust! If you want details, I'd be happy to send pics of my setup. Just pm me.
Good luck and keep rockin!
Jim
 
Just FWIW, I finished my o-360 RV 7 almost 2 years ago with an Ellison throttle body, and had no issues with the install at all. It bolts on and goes. The only hassle was the need to fab a bell crank to slide the throttle on my particular install. Took about 3 hours to fab, and I'm slow! Love the way the thing runs in any attitude, super simple, and requires no attention. The Ellison came highly recommended to me by several acro pilots who had used them in the past. Glad I did! In fact, I bought a spare just in case, but it is collecting dust! If you want details, I'd be happy to send pics of my setup. Just pm me.
Good luck and keep rockin!
Jim

Thanks Jim. PM sent.
 
Ellison pilot report

I installed an Ellison EFS 4-5 on my RV-8 with an O-360 about a year ago and have been doing a lot of flying and tinkering with it since. At the same time I bought an EFS-4 for my RV-3 with an O-320 that was undergoing a major redo. I have flown the 8 for about 150 hours or so and the 3 for just about one hour as I test flew it for the first time yesterday. Here are my impressions so far of the two units.

The EFS 4-5 is about 1 1/2 inches shorter than the carburetor so it requires either a spacer to be fabricated to keep the airbox in alignment with the cowl, or fiberglass work on the cowl. Supposedly intake turbulence is the boogie man for these units and so far I would agree. I started with a simple, milled aluminum spacer between the Ellison and the airbox. Worked great at low power, but had poor distribution of air to the cylinders as evidenced by large variations in CHT and EGT, as well as a noticeable loss in power during time to climb.

Next, I bought air straighteners from Aircraft Spruce and added one at the throat of the Ellison. I was very concerned because it was sized for the EFS-4 so was too small for the larger 4-5. I found on the net that it should still flew enough air so tried it anyway. Distribution was marginally better, but still not right. Of course the power was obviously not better since there was a restriction in the inlet.

Next, a friend helped me fabricate a new spacer, much wider than the other so the unit could have a larger volume plenum to breath from with no obstructions in the way of the intake. I was stoked about this and thought it would solve the problem, but unfortunately it's worse than ever. Now there is a noticeable shake at high throttle openings and over 200 degree split in EGT between the front and rear cylinders.

The next plan, which I haven't done yet, is to add fabricated vanes inside the air box and a deflector for the front of the air filter to try and straighten the air more.

The RV-3 has the old style inlet with no airbox. It's a scoop directly to the intake, which according to the Ellison manual should be the worst configuration. I bought a new Vans airbox, fiberglass scoop for the cowl, and the glass to do the entire cowl mod and new airbox. With the difficulties on the 8, I decided to try flying the 3 without doing those mods to get a baseline.

The EFS 4, unlike the 4-5, is exactly the same size as the carburetor. This means that the old intake and cowl bolted right up with no modification at all. Additionally, the air straightener that I bought was sized for this smaller Ellison unit, so I added it since this intake configuration was listed as the worst. Long story short on this one is that the first two flights seem fine. Good power and smooth at all throttle settings. Now, to be fair, I've only put an hour on it and haven't tested nearly as thoroughly as I have the other unit, but first impressions are really good and if I can't find any bad habits I'm going to leave it alone and not do the new intake scoop and airbox.

A friend has the EFS 4 on an RV-4 with the newer scoop and airbox and loves it. I'm inclined to think the problem may be that the 4-5 is more finicky. I certainly wish Ellison had an intake box for it that would just work. One that you could just hook up an air hose and the box would solve the intake problems.

As a final note, the starting, idling, and lower throttle power delivery is fine. Also, high power and low angle of attack is acceptable, so aerobatics and fun flying is great. Trying to climb to higher altitudes with the throttle open and nose up is when things are at their worst in the RV-8 install.

Hope this helps someone and if anyone has a suggestion, I'm all ears.

Tommy
 
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