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Free airspace

jmvolpp

Member
I've all but scrubbed a VFR trip next month from east central IN to ECP since the plethora of Alert and Restricted Areas, MOAs, and training route corridors, with little relief in the form of "free" airspace, would seem to make the last 100 miles or so somewhat sporting. This wouldn't be my first rodeo, however I wouldn't relish feeling like a target for that long a stretch! Would those of you familiar with traversing the region care to weigh in on this possibly overcautious attitude?

Mike V.
 
VFR? I keep my eyes out (like always) and pretty much ignore MOA's and training routes. If you don't use that airspace, the utility of an airplane is pretty much zilch.
 
Kyle is right

And if you go on a Sunday or Monday a lot of the MOA's are inactive anyway. I go through them all the time and very seldom see anything. But as always be vigilant. Flight following wouldn't hurt either.
 
Nothing to it. You will fly right over my house. I live just southwest of DHN, right smack in the middle of all of that stuff.
Call Cairns approach @ 125.4. when you are 25 miles north of DHN, and they will give you flight following and keep you advised of all the helicopter training (all low level stuff) and then they will hand you off to Tyndall approach.

If you want to fly down the beach towards Destin, used the VFR corridors on the sectional and call up approach on the depicted frequencies.

I have not been into the new Panama City Airport. I usually go into Destin using the north-south corridor.

MOAs are not restricted airspace.

BTW, fuel is $4.60 at 0J6, not what I would call cheap, but probably better than Panama City.
 
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Please get flight following

Please please get flight following and check if the MOA is active. Like these guys said, we usually don't activate the MOAs on the weekends but sometimes we do. I can't tell you how many times I've been in the middle of a BFM set and had to knock it off and burn 5000 dollars of tax payer dollars to reset up the fight because a Cessna decided to fly through the middle of a MOA squawking 1200 and not talking to anyone.

Now that I'm off my soapbox, DO fly through them if they're inactive, I sure do.

-Craig
F/A-18 Driver
Prospective RV Driver
 
I've all too often had "flight following" dump me like a hot potato if I chose to fly through a hot moa and not go the long way around. You can try, but you can't always please everybody. Again, a moa isn't restricted airspace.
 
Please please get flight following and check if the MOA is active. Like these guys said, we usually don't activate the MOAs on the weekends but sometimes we do. I can't tell you how many times I've been in the middle of a BFM set and had to knock it off and burn 5000 dollars of tax payer dollars to reset up the fight because a Cessna decided to fly through the middle of a MOA squawking 1200 and not talking to anyone.

Now that I'm off my soapbox, DO fly through them if they're inactive, I sure do.

-Craig
F/A-18 Driver
Prospective RV Driver

Just curious, exactly how close do you have to be before the avionics in your fighter will pick up an aircraft squawking a transponder code, 1200 or other? To me it should be on your screen for a while and shouldn't be a surprise. I do realize that you get focused while up performing maneuvers, but usually there is more than just one fighter in the area and situational awareness with the other aircraft should be part of training, regardless of aircraft type. Since Flight Following does not guarantee seperation I would not be relying on that versus keeping your eyes out of the cockpit.

Please don't take my questions wrong, the last thing I want is a midair collision.
 
No TCAS

So you may actually be surprised to find out, but we do not have TCAS in the F-18 so we rely on air traffic control to let us know when someone comes into the MOA and our air to air radars. Unfortunately if you are maneuvering dyanimically as you are in a BFM (dogfighting) set up you are not able to "sanitize" the airspace around you because your nose is never pointing anywhere long enough. Dogfighting is a visual technique so you are trying to not lose sight of your one adversary and wingman with very little SA to devote to traffic avoidance. So what happens when someone comes into the MOA is we typically have to "knock-it-off" roll wings level, and search for the traffic. So when they say that the MOA is hot and they are maneuvering "dynamically" there is a very good chance that the fighter pilot, if he's defensive, is looking behind him over his shoulder as he redefines nose low and goes from 20k to 5K in a matter of seconds. Knowing what I know now of what goes on in MOAs I would avoid them if they're hot.

At the end of the day, you can fly in MOAs VFR. I just caution against it.
 
Reality of sharing

Interesting to hear from both sides of the airspace users in this thread. We rarely get to hear what the situation is like from the fighter side. I am surrounded by MOA airspace in Arizona and I commute to California for work in the RV. So, I and many like me, have been transiting MOA's for over forty years.
Two observations.... as mentioned, I have been dropped from flight following while entering a hot MOA at times. The controller does not seem interested in being part of the chain of liability. Can't say I blame them. When they call normal traffic 12 o'clock three miles opposite direction, it is probably on a steady course. A "dynamic" fighter is so unpredictable... that the controller would be almost unable to help. BTW, I have never heard a controller mention the stuff on his scope maneuvering "dynamically". I suspect the term resides mostly in the fighter pilot community. The controllers do refer to RV's and others as FLIBS. I will let you look that one up since this is a family site.
I like to think of myself as a cautious pilot, but can't see any way I could get any use out of my plane by going around every active MOA. I already put many miles on circling the Restricted areas in California. And they are hot almost permanently in recent years. I do find some comfort in the fact that the F-18 or F-16 driver is probably the most highly "tuned" aviator on the planet and in command of the most sophisticated flying machine ever dreamed up. If my little RV ever appeared suddenly in his windscreen, a slight flick of the wrist and he (or she) would whistle past me... and I would have a hangar story to tell. I can't remember any reports of a midair where I travel. And there are many thousands of VFR transits through the active military airspace. I give the most credit for this safety record to the fighter pilots themselves. And I am proud this Memorial day to remember those who came before.
 
One other little told fact... If we are dogfighting (which is what I'd be most afraid of getting mixed up in) both the Navy and Air Force usually utilize a 5K AGL hard deck. So if you insist on going through a hot MOA, staying below 5K should keep you safer, and also hopefully keep the fight going for the military guys.

Cheers
 
MOAs

I detect from replies posted that there is an attitude it is okay to fly through a MOA since it is not illegal. Let's think about that.

The MOAs are approved and placed on the charts to provide our military aviators in that local area valuable training on their tactics with the few flight hours they get to train each month. They study their manuals, get placed on the flying schedule, brief for an hour or so, hope they get an airframe that is ready to fly, start and taxi out for takeoff in all kinds of weather, and navigate to the MOA where they get cleared into the MOA for training. With fuel available they have perhaps 45 minutes do do about 3 or 4 setups using selected tactics, then they have to head back to home base. If there is a stray aircraft flying through the MOA, they have to knock it off burning precious training fuel until the stray is out of the way and they lose that training set up.

So, by flying through the MOA, you save maybe 10-15 minutes rather than flying around the MOA corners, but they lose valuable training to make them better and more combat ready. They may not be on the flying schedule to fly that training scenario for months. Is that what you want to save a little time?

Why not call Center as you are getting close to the MOA to find if it is HOT or COLD. If center says it is HOT, go around the corners and give our military aviators the opportunity to get full use of the their spot on the schedule and the fuel they have for training. If Center says the MOA is COLD, go on through and monitor Center freq so they can contact you if necessary.
 
In this case I would fly V115 (more or less) to CEW then V198 just past 54J yen south to KECP. It's almost impossible in that area to avoid all MOA's. If you are on flight following, you can check to see which ones are hot and avoid them unless they are all hot (which I imagine rarely happens), then go through the small ones around Crestview. I fly through this area all the time and I usually fly the V198 corridor if things are hot. Even IFR I've never had them send me way out to the north past the Rose Hill and Pensacola MOA's. There's too much GA traffic into and out of Florida and south Georgia for them to make a lot of them hot at the same time.
 
There seems to be a variety of opinions here and also a variety of conditions. In flying from So Cal to Tahoe I typically go through the Lemoore MOAs on flight following. I usually get transferred to the Lemoore controllers and get through with their assistance, even while the airspace is hot. The last time traffic was called out as two F-15s (??) and I got a decent view of them as they rapidly climbed through my altitude, all from a safe distance. No stress and actually enjoyable. Transiting a hot MOA does not necessarily mean no help from flight following.

Erich
 
sua.faa.gov is your friend. Lesser known resource that can aid in determining when various forms of Special Use or other airspace will be active.
 
This thread reminds me how nice it is to have an IFR ticket and be able to file IFR even in VFR conditions. By doing this you get eyes on you to get through busy airspace safely. It scares me when I see pilots worrying more about their XM reception than staying in touch with services such as flight following. Most of them just do not know what they do not know.
 
Tyndall

Tyndall never uses all of Bravo MOA. They use a portion of Bravo and Hotel called Compass Lake, if you fly direct to Laara, to ECP, you will be well clear of the portion of Bravo MOA they use. You can also fly to 54J and call Eglin Sikes Sector/Eglin north to keep clear of R2905, they will push you just east of it through Tyndalls unpublished arrival/departure corridor, hope this helped.
 
Come on down, enjoy some southern hospitality

All kidding aside, I Have flown the panhandle a number of times,..and down to Appalachicola once. Controllers are fine, and you will talk to a number of military controllers along the way. Think they enjoy working a mixed group, and staying busy.

Think you will have more trouble with JPG and Cincinnati than here. My navigator just piped up and said take the northern route,... I-10. Southern along the beach is ok also. Her hometown is southern IN, so, haven't exactly flown the reverse, of yours, But pretty well covered most of it. (She really enjoyed the Appalachicola trip)

Think only one time did a MOA go hot after part way through, on flight following.

I for one, like to keep our tax dollars working, and our aviators trained, so I try to avoid if at all possible when they are hot. The routes I fly are only slightly tweaked when MOAs are hot. Generally have more change due to weather than MOA. Afternoon thundershowers can be wicked bad,..... As can morning and evening thundershowers. Plan to fly early in the day,...and be done by 11 or earlier if possible. If not, heads up and keep options OPEN.
 
We fly helicopters in some of those same MOAs the OP is talking about, and now I'm in a MOA much further north. Though helicopter traffic is normally going to see you long before you ever see them (if ever) Most MOAs set up for helicopter use (can't speak for the fast mover types) have extensive route structures established within them, and FAA traffic will almost never have knowledge of the route structure. I've always thought it was unfortunate that a CTAF style common freq was not established for MOAs. It sure would help with air to air deconfliction. I can't tell you how many times we've been in the trees and have low and slow VFR traffic cruising around us and we just hide out until they leave, or watch them on the sights.
 
While it's not illegal to fly through a MOA, it's probably not advisable if the MOA is hot.

If the MOA is for a UPT base or any the other more advanced training base think of what may be going on within the MOA. Imagine an UPT student pilot in a T-38. You think there might be issues with that student pilot keeping his head in front of the aircraft and him keeping track of a GA pilot blindly flying through a MOA?

Like it has already been mentioned, controllers will advise if the MOA is hot. I just flew through Mississippi this weekend in which most of the eastern part of the state is covered by a MOA. You may not be able to fly a straight line, but there is usually a path through the area. I was fortunate this time in that all the MOAs were cold, so taking a straight line approach wasn't an issue.

Most of the bases bend over backwards to maintain a positive relationship with GA. Most publish procedures and advice for GA pilots flying in the vicinity of the training bases. They also publish incident reports of near misses and accidents. After reading them, you may think twice before flying through a hot MOA.
 
So you may actually be surprised to find out, but we do not have TCAS in the F-18 so we rely on air traffic control to let us know when someone comes into the MOA and our air to air radar.

Would you guys show up on ADS-B or TIS? I am pretty sure the controller providing flight following has less time to look out for me then I do so having you show up on my map would be really usefull.
 
Here's a timely reminder, then, that the MOA's just west of Oshkosh WILL be active during AirVenture this year. Plan accordingly.

Big war games planned that week.

Good grief. I hope the powers that be planned to have a lot of "knock it off" calls during this time. This is one time I wouldn't blame GA pilots a bit for flying through a hot MOA.
 
NC MOA's/Restricted airspace

North Carolina is covered with Military activity, and plenty of MOA's/Restricted airspace. I traveled from central NC to the outer banks region of Cape Hatteras this past weekend, and even with the miles of open water ,MOA's and restricted zones with names like "Giant Killer", the trip was awesome. You just have to be willing to call the bases and find out what's active and not... Seymour Johnson ,New River MCAS and Cherry Point MCAS will give good intell on any activity, and we had no issues at all. Anyone who travels to First Flight or up/down the Carolina coast can be very intimidated the first time you glance at a sectional.
 
I have flown on both sides; military (over 30 years) and civil. I believe it is important to remember that MOAs are see and avoid airspace. The military and civil users are both responsible for avoidance. Just because an MOA is active does not mean it is in use. Schedules change and training flights get completed or cancelled; the MOA might still be active.

If you are worried about running into military aircraft then you better add IRs and VRs to your list of concerns. I would imagine most folks fly across them without knowing if they are scheduled for use or looking for low level high speed aircraft. And these routes, for the most part, are NOT in any SUA.

Use good diligence, check for activity and talk to flight following; but I would not just add hundreds of miles to a flight to completely avoid the area. That is why we (the military) have restricted areas; so we can exclude other traffic.

Just my two cents.
 
Use good diligence, check for activity and talk to flight following; but I would not just add hundreds of miles to a flight to completely avoid the area. That is why we (the military) have restricted areas; so we can exclude other traffic.

Absolutely concur - a good and concise summation of how we fly out here in the mountainous west. We share MOA's, and we (GA) leave the restricted airspace to those who own it. Avoiding all MOA airspace is impractical when you look at the size of some areas, and can be dangerous if you look at where that puts you in relation to mountains and other really bad places.

And the military is even glad to share many of the restricted areas - on the weekends, it is easy to get cleared right across the Edwards Complex and get good views of Muroc and China Lake.

Amazingly, the airspace rules were designed with flexibility in mind - so blanket assumptions about staying out of certain types and areas give up freedoms that we can safely exercise.

This topic gets debated regularly here and on other forums - I am glad to have earned something new this time around - the 5,000' AGL hard deck is a good reference number!

Paul
 
Hope the links work.

Below are 2 links, one to the Sheppard AFB Share the Air pamphlet that has a lot of good information regarding TCAS in UPT aircraft, low level routes etc. The message is to always use your transponder. I know pilots here that turn off their transponders as soon as they are out of the Mode C veil -- never understood why you want to limit the ability of people to see you:confused:

The 2nd link is from the Eglin AFB Flying Club and has information on how to fly in and around the Eglin AFB airspace.

Most bases have similar information if you go to their websites.


http://www.sheppard.af.mil/shared/media/document/AFD-120221-059.pdf

http://www.eglinaeroclub.com/Documents/MACA-Pamphlet-Jan-2012.aspx
 
Interesting to hear from both sides of the airspace users in this thread. We rarely get to hear what the situation is like from the fighter side. I am surrounded by MOA airspace in Arizona and I commute to California for work in the RV. So, I and many like me, have been transiting MOA's for over forty years.
Two observations.... as mentioned, I have been dropped from flight following while entering a hot MOA at times. The controller does not seem interested in being part of the chain of liability. Can't say I blame them. When they call normal traffic 12 o'clock three miles opposite direction, it is probably on a steady course. A "dynamic" fighter is so unpredictable... that the controller would be almost unable to help. BTW, I have never heard a controller mention the stuff on his scope maneuvering "dynamically". I suspect the term resides mostly in the fighter pilot community. The controllers do refer to RV's and others as FLIBS. I will let you look that one up since this is a family site.
I like to think of myself as a cautious pilot, but can't see any way I could get any use out of my plane by going around every active MOA. I already put many miles on circling the Restricted areas in California. And they are hot almost permanently in recent years. I do find some comfort in the fact that the F-18 or F-16 driver is probably the most highly "tuned" aviator on the planet and in command of the most sophisticated flying machine ever dreamed up. If my little RV ever appeared suddenly in his windscreen, a slight flick of the wrist and he (or she) would whistle past me... and I would have a hangar story to tell. I can't remember any reports of a midair where I travel. And there are many thousands of VFR transits through the active military airspace. I give the most credit for this safety record to the fighter pilots themselves. And I am proud this Memorial day to remember those who came before.

I've never had to deal with MOAs but you're correct in that a traffic call would be difficult. The planes are moving too fast and the radar honestly can't keep up (and I use some of the best radar in the country). All I'm going to see is an intermittent return jumping all over with XXX in the altitude block. Just what I've observed watching air shows from a radar scope.
 
I have flown on both sides; military (over 30 years) and civil. I believe it is important to remember that MOAs are see and avoid airspace. The military and civil users are both responsible for avoidance. Just because an MOA is active does not mean it is in use. Schedules change and training flights get completed or cancelled; the MOA might still be active.

If you are worried about running into military aircraft then you better add IRs and VRs to your list of concerns. I would imagine most folks fly across them without knowing if they are scheduled for use or looking for low level high speed aircraft. And these routes, for the most part, are NOT in any SUA.

Use good diligence, check for activity and talk to flight following; but I would not just add hundreds of miles to a flight to completely avoid the area. That is why we (the military) have restricted areas; so we can exclude other traffic.

Just my two cents.

Absolutely concur - a good and concise summation of how we fly out here in the mountainous west. We share MOA's, and we (GA) leave the restricted airspace to those who own it. Avoiding all MOA airspace is impractical when you look at the size of some areas, and can be dangerous if you look at where that puts you in relation to mountains and other really bad places.

And the military is even glad to share many of the restricted areas - on the weekends, it is easy to get cleared right across the Edwards Complex and get good views of Muroc and China Lake.

Amazingly, the airspace rules were designed with flexibility in mind - so blanket assumptions about staying out of certain types and areas give up freedoms that we can safely exercise.

This topic gets debated regularly here and on other forums - I am glad to have earned something new this time around - the 5,000' AGL hard deck is a good reference number!

Paul

These 2 posts (IMHO) do an excellent job of summing up the entire discussion. The high deserts of the S.W. are full of MOA's, low altitude training routes and restricted areas. With proper (non complicated) procedures it is possible to safely fly through all of them (though I have never been granted entry to Restricted Area 51 :rolleyes:) )
 
This topic gets debated regularly here and on other forums - I am glad to have earned something new this time around - the 5,000' AGL hard deck is a good reference number!

Paul

Careful on the assumption of nothing below 5000 AGL. That is the hard deck for those still "participating". I have been in briefs that have the "return home" corridors to be at 500 AGL to ensure they are clear of those still "participating".
 
Careful on the assumption of nothing below 5000 AGL. That is the hard deck for those still "participating". I have been in briefs that have the "return home" corridors to be at 500 AGL to ensure they are clear of those still "participating".

Also MTRs are usually 500 to 1500 AGL at speeds of 400kts or more....
 
Good grief. I hope the powers that be planned to have a lot of "knock it off" calls during this time. This is one time I wouldn't blame GA pilots a bit for flying through a hot MOA.
For the record, the events going on in the MOA were planned and known about before EAA made the decision to move the convention up a week and create the conflict. A bad move on EAA's part, but not a good reason to fly through the MOA unnecessarily. But I get your drift.
 
EAA

For the record, the events going on in the MOA were planned and known about before EAA made the decision to move the convention up a week and create the conflict. A bad move on EAA's part, but not a good reason to fly through the MOA unnecessarily. But I get your drift.

The Airventure future dates for 2104 thru 2020 were announced on Aug 29, 2013. Do you have documented proof of the MOA activity being planned prior to Aug 2013.
EAA did not "move up the dates". The dates follow a pattern going back at least to the early 60's.
 
Here's a timely reminder, then, that the MOA's just west of Oshkosh WILL be active during AirVenture this year. Plan accordingly.

Big war games planned that week.

Should not be too restrictive as VOLK East is 8000 to 17999 ft. Need to be down well below that at enter the VFR arrival at Rippon.

The Airventure future dates for 2104 thru 2020 were announced on Aug 29, 2013. Do you have documented proof of the MOA activity being planned prior to Aug 2013.
EAA did not "move up the dates". The dates follow a pattern going back at least to the early 60's.
Surely people in high places in the military, FAA, and EAA are coordinating with each other since I know all three organizations list safety as a very high priority.
 
The Airventure future dates for 2104 thru 2020 were announced on Aug 29, 2013. Do you have documented proof of the MOA activity being planned prior to Aug 2013.
EAA did not "move up the dates". The dates follow a pattern going back at least to the early 60's.
No, I was just going by EAA's own statements on the matter. By their own admission they moved the dates up a week this year to better accommodate families who had to get kids back to school. The schedule has evolved over the years and changed many times, settling on the current Monday-Sunday schedule about a dozen years ago, but never this early.
 
I've all too often had "flight following" dump me like a hot potato if I chose to fly through a hot moa and not go the long way around. You can try, but you can't always please everybody. Again, a moa isn't restricted airspace.

It would be interesting to hear from a controller on this. It has been my experience that with flight following, if you decide to go on and fly through an MOA that the controller has advised is hot, their procedure is to cancel flight following. That seems like a reasonable action to me. If I am told that an MOA is hot, I would not want to fly through it anyway. The controller will almost always suggest a heading, alternate altitude, or reroute to keep you clear of the hot airspace. I suspect that if you were IFR and the controller gave you a vector or a reroute because of a hot MOA, he would expect you to comply. Wonder what would happen if you refused the reroute while on an IFR clearance? I understand that it is perfectly legal to fly VFR through an MOA whenever you want to do so.
 
Another Hornet dude here...

I have often coordinated with the controlling agency to fly through a MOA if it's hot. Often you can get overflight (or more typically in GA, underflight) through a MOA.

For example, ATC would just come up to the fighters and ask if we could work 3,000 ft and above in the MOA, while someone transits below. While this could be a slight inconvenience depending on the mission at hand, it's much preferred to a panicked "knock it off" as we have a 500ft pass with uncalled traffic that nobody had SA to.

For the average GA pilot, our fighters are not as well equipped as you'd imagine. They have TACAN only, no TCAS or ADS-B, and the radar display is somewhat cryptic and must be pointed in the direction of the traffic you're looking at. If nobody cues you into traffic in a certain location, there's a good chance that it can go undetected. Not to mention that during BFM your attention is focused 90% outside the cockpit.
 
MOA SUA activity link

I know this thread is a little old, but I'm going to post this anyway! Here's a link that shows upcoming MOA and SUA activity on a map. Super easy to use. I saved the link in my "Aviation" folder on my iPad.

seeandavoid.org

Lance
 
I suspect that if you were IFR and the controller gave you a vector or a reroute because of a hot MOA, he would expect you to comply. Wonder what would happen if you refused the reroute while on an IFR clearance? I understand that it is perfectly legal to fly VFR through an MOA whenever you want to do so.

ATC will not give you an IFR clearance thru a hot MOA. And of course if IFR you must follow the clearance(s) you are given.
If in VMC the option is yours to cancel ifr and do what you like.
 
I know this thread is a little old, but I'm going to post this anyway! Here's a link that shows upcoming MOA and SUA activity on a map. Super easy to use. I saved the link in my "Aviation" folder on my iPad.

seeandavoid.org

Lance

It'd be really cool if Foreflight and/or Garmin Pilot integrated this information into their apps for pre-flight planning purposes.

Better still, having this information broadcast via ADS-B (much like TFRs or AIRMETs/SIGMETs) to get this information in-flight.
 
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