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AKZO

J

JDA_BTR

Well Known Member
How could I have not used AKZO before now? I got one of the primer pistols and have a larger HVLP on order, but today I used the primer pistol for the first time instead of using spray cans?.. Wow - it goes on so easy and even.

Now if I just knew how long to wait before turning the parts to paint the other side?.
 
JDA_BTR said:
Wow - it goes on so easy and even.

Now if I just knew how long to wait before turning the parts to paint the other side?.
Click to expand...

It sure does. Because of this, you must ensure you do not shoot it too heavily - seems like a common problem. If you have a beautiful, even, paint-like appearance, it's probably too much. The correct amount is very much less visually appealing; almost grainy in appearance.

As far as time, it also depends on amount shot, but most of my parts could be turned in 15-20 minutes. I then left them cure for a couple days before dimpling and riveting.
 
Well I acquired some tools - one was the Harbor Freight pneumatic paint shaker. I put the epoxy can on it and let it do all the hard work of mixing the thick AKZO epoxy. The catalyst looks like it only needs minimal shaking - it is like water.

I bought a primer pistol from ATS: http://www.aircraft-tool.com/shop/detail.aspx?id=SA-PP01
I think there is another one similar that has a glass jar instead of the film can. I found that I could prime about 10 ft^2 of stuff on one side with the film can full of primer.

I had to drop the pressure to the gun to about 35 psi, because any more just blew too hard on the parts I was painting and they wanted to move around.

Coming in the mail I have the rockler tools HLVP gun that is the resell of a Titan 19000 that takes the #2 adapter for the 3M PPS paint cup system. So I'm looking forward to mixing the paint and then not having much cleanup at the end when that shows. I think it will do a better job faster than the primer pistol. But the primer pistol would work for the whole job I think. The primer pistol is a little funky with having to shake a little bit to keep the paint running through it due to the solids in the paint. And it's stream is a little unpredictable because is it just siphoning up the paint.

I was able to clean up pretty easy though with some MEK to wash out the canister and then a half canister of MEK blown through the gun to clean the pickup tube.
 
3M

You're going to love the 3M PPS system. Clean up is so easy. I usually leave the cup for last and toss in all the paint trash then close it up and trash it.
 
Curious, what is AKZO? I'm only familiar with the large chemical manufacturing corp, Akzo (Nobel).
 
On this site people refer to it as simply AKZO, but it is a primer that can be purchased at Aircraft Spruce and other places. It is made by the AKZO Nobel company.
 
Yep, I like the stuff so much that it is the final finish for the interior of my project. I also am a 3M PPS convert too. I'll never go back to a regular cup.
 
What I did with Azco Noble

I applied the paint/coating /using a supplied air respirater Hobby Air.
 
Regret

For others out there starting out, I used rattle can for my entire project, it is my biggest regret. AKZO looks WAY better, is way tougher and the price in the end was probably about the same or more for the rattle can. It's not hard to use, don't be intimidated like I was at using a spray gun. Go for it.
 
My turn at trying to prime using AKZO

Hello,

I also bought my AKZO from Graco. Great service. They also sell 2 oz touch-up kits for $4.00. I bought the gallon and the touch-up kit.

Today I decided to try priming. I know I need help on this so please provide any support or advice. Please follow the link to my web page and full resolution photos.

http://elstien.us/RV-10 Build Log and Information/Picture Albums/First Priming/index.html

I used a HF HVLP gun with 40 PSI at the gun static pressure (no trigger pull) I experimented with different fluid flows and spray patterns but not with pressure. I am happy that I did not create a mess but I am not happy with the results.

Do not worry about the order of the work, I know I did some riveting before priming etc.
I mixed 1:1 and let sit for 30 minutes
I mixed only 1/2 of the touch-up kit.
Poured 1/2 into gun, maybe 1 Oz
Covered all parts.
My friend thought the coverage was not enough so I added the remaining and sprayed one skin of the practice kit heavier, almost a cover coat.
All the parts feel fuzzy, maybe because of too high a pressure on the gun?

Please let me know some ideas and I will try some additional pieces.
 
Hi Michael,

Really hard to tell with the pics and without seeing the parts, but I had a few parts with the same thing - almost looked like a bunch of dirt/dust contamination; also felt rough. I believe it was a case of too much air drying some of the primer as it was being shot. I adjusted the airflow and all was well.
 
Grainy

60av8tor said:
Hi Michael,

Really hard to tell with the pics and without seeing the parts, but I had a few parts with the same thing - almost looked like a bunch of dirt/dust contamination; also felt rough. I believe it was a case of too much air drying some of the primer as it was being shot. I adjusted the airflow and all was well.
Click to expand...

I agree. I got a grainy finish with the P60G2 the first few parts. It turned out to be paint was not atomized. Adjustment to slightly less paint and a tad more pressure made a smooth finish.
a light scrub of parts with 400 smoothed out the grainy finish.
 
What do ya'll do to mix the primer/catalyst once in the PPS cup? It won't fit in the shaker and I can't find the little collar that would do that anywhere (it is in the 3M video demonstrating the cups). Hand shake? Stir?

Also, the priming pistol worked but was inconsistent. I have gotten a Vaper 19000 and I don't know how to use/adjust it - the instructions are useless. It looks like there is a knob on the back and another on the side?. Googling it...
 
JDA_BTR said:
What do ya'll do to mix the primer/catalyst once in the PPS cup? It won't fit in the shaker and I can't find the little collar that would do that anywhere (it is in the 3M video demonstrating the cups). Hand shake? Stir?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I even understand the question. You're mixing up one little cup of stuff at a time... Thoroughly mix the solids in the gallon can. Transfer correctly measured amounts to the PPS, stir with a tongue depressor. Wait the induction time. Give it a jiggle as you are putting it on the gun to spray, and go for it.
 
That was my question - after combining the two parts how much more mixing of that is needed. It didn't seem like it should need much.
 
Better the second time around

Thank you everyone for your advice. Tonight I loaded up a batch of AKZO, probably around -1 oz. what was left from the touch up kit. I lowered the pressure to the gun to 36 PSI static pressure and adjusted the air knob (near the air hose attach point) all the way in at first. I also turned the material knob (the one that controls the needle) all the way in.


  • I tried to spray, nothing came out. As I expected.
  • I then undid the air knob 1 turn and pressed the trigger, air but no material, as expected. The pressure drop from static to trigger pull was a delta of 8-10 PSI
  • Next I undid the material knob 1/2 turn and pressed the trigger and got some material to flow, but it was not "wetting" the aluminum.
  • I undid the material knob another 1/2 turn and pressed the trigger.
  • Viola- it looks a lot better.
  • It went on wet, covered well and no fuzzy stuff.

I am out of touch-up material and need to crack open the gallon containers. The next time I spray it will be on the VS spar and I fully expect to fine tune the adjustments, air, fan and material just right.

One step closer to starting the real build

Thanks everyone.
 
I have a few questions on the AKZO primer.

It looks like the smallest quantity is 2 gallons. Correct? Is that enough to prime an entire RV?

Does this stuff keep well? Would it loose anything after 5 years of storage?

Has anyone ever sprayed this stuff with an airbrush for small jobs?

Thanks
 
diamond said:
....

Has anyone ever sprayed this stuff with an airbrush for small jobs?

Thanks
Click to expand...

I've used a cheap external mix Badger airbrush for small jobs. One oz. mixed seems to go a long way and it's real easy to use and clean up with a little acetone.

Careful with the Harbor Freight external mix airbrushes - the plastic in them will melt with the AKZO. :rolleyes:
 
I'm using AZKO to prime the -12 I'm building. I've used almost a full gallon (2 gallons if you count the activator) doing the Empennage/Tailcone and Wings. I don't think 1 gallon will do an entire RV-7.

When I did my -7A, I used a number of different primers. At some point Walt gave me "expired" AZKO that he got from a user that had to adhere to official shelf life limits. It wasn't 5 years old but it was a few years old by the time I got it and it was better then anything I has used to that point in the build.

I just ordered another gallon last night. Thanks for the Graco tip, definitely the best price around.

I'm using a Sharpe gun with PPS cups. I'm still developing my technique.
 
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diamond said:
I have a few questions on the AKZO primer.

It looks like the smallest quantity is 2 gallons. Correct? Is that enough to prime an entire RV?

Does this stuff keep well? Would it loose anything after 5 years of storage?

Has anyone ever sprayed this stuff with an airbrush for small jobs?

Thanks
Click to expand...

The two gallon kit is 1 gallon of primer and 1 gallon of activator. It is mixed in a 50/50 ratio. From what I have seen on the forum, the official shelf life is 2 years, but others have mentioned using some that has been older than that. YMMV.

I have the PPS adapter and the shipment of AKZO and Prekote on their way, so I will be attempting this for the first time soon. I think the practice kit will be my first victim, er, I mean target, er, object to test on. :)
 
diamond said:
Has anyone ever sprayed this stuff with an airbrush for small jobs?
Click to expand...

Yes. I use a small Badger (cheap) airbrush all the time for small parts and in conjunction with the larger gun to get in tight areas. Works great, easy clean-up. http://www.badgerairbrush.com/BADGER_250.asp

Also, to prevent wa$te, I use two syringes, one for each primer component, to draw out small quantities for touch-up, etc. I mixed up 2cc (1+1) the other night to prime the spar nutplate countersinks with a small brush. (little insulin type syringes) The primer won't cure in the syringes if you use a separate one for each can.
 
Husker'87 said:
The two gallon kit is 1 gallon of primer and 1 gallon of activator. It is mixed in a 50/50 ratio. From what I have seen on the forum, the official shelf life is 2 years, but others have mentioned using some that has been older than that. YMMV.

I have the PPS adapter and the shipment of AKZO and Prekote on their way, so I will be attempting this for the first time soon. I think the practice kit will be my first victim, er, I mean target, er, object to test on. :)
Click to expand...

Awesome service from Graco. Ordered Wednesday evening and it arrived today. :eek:
 
So I have decided to go with the AKZO primer. But at that price, I sure don't want to waste any. If I use the PPS system, mix up primer but don't use it all, can it be stored for future use?
 
Takes 30 min after mixing for first use, then 8 hour pot life; less if you have a small amount.

The cost at $150 delivered for a gallon of paint is actually really cheap. 128 ounces mixed compared to $6 plus tax for a can of spray paint that has 12 oz only 6 of which end up on your parts. So thats 20 cans of spray paint or about $120; and the AKZO is tough as nails and so much more satisfying.

On an $100K airplane, a couple hundred bucks in paint is nothing; build on!
 
Primer

diamond said:
So I have decided to go with the AKZO primer. But at that price, I sure don't want to waste any. If I use the PPS system, mix up primer but don't use it all, can it be stored for future use?
Click to expand...

Once you get a good technique, measure the primer and calculate the coverage. Then going forward mix only the amount needed.
 
diamond said:
I saw another post that described using AKZO 2111. Is that the same stuff as this?

Also, I see that the PPS comes in different cup sizes. Which cup size is appropriate for priming parts?
Click to expand...

I have both the mini and standard. The mini is 6 oz, and the standard are 20 oz. I would think that the standard would be the best and the unit cost is about the same between the two so I would just get the standard size if I had to do it again.
 
What guns are people using for AKZO primer? Links would be appreciated. Also, where can people get that PPS system?

I'm ordering the 2 gallons and a couple touch up kits for practice spraying on my practice kits in the next couple days.
 
Paint guns

diamond said:
How about the Harbor Freight version?

http://www.harborfreight.com/5-piece-air-spray-gun-disposable-paint-cups-97098.html

Has anyone used these succesfully for priming? No internal filter or ability to spray upside down, but definately cheaper. How important is spraying upside down and filtering AKZO anyway?
Click to expand...

I've read lots of others who used the higher priced HF gravity feed gun. With the 3M PPS cups you can spray any direction.
That said, I love my Devilbiss but I got lucky and bought it used for a great price.
 
diamond said:
How about the Harbor Freight version?

http://www.harborfreight.com/5-piece-air-spray-gun-disposable-paint-cups-97098.html

Has anyone used these succesfully for priming? No internal filter or ability to spray upside down, but definately cheaper. How important is spraying upside down and filtering AKZO anyway?
Click to expand...

Save your $ - unless you like watching your Akzo flow out of the $hi!!y plastic treads of the cups. I do use the HF gun (with the cup it came with), however, and get great results for priming.
 
PilotRPI said:
What guns are people using for AKZO primer? Links would be appreciated. Also, where can people get that PPS system?

I'm ordering the 2 gallons and a couple touch up kits for practice spraying on my practice kits in the next couple days.
Click to expand...


I got my HVLP gun from Lowes and ordered the PPS cups from Amazon.
 
Jon, if you get out the hangar this weekend stop by and give a lesson on your priming technique. I have a potential sale on the rans so I will be out there installing a Trig transponder and a 406 MHz ELT.
 
60av8tor said:
Save your $ - unless you like watching your Akzo flow out of the $hi!!y plastic treads of the cups. I do use the HF gun (with the cup it came with), however, and get great results for priming.
Click to expand...

Interesting. I haven't had a problem with any of the HF cups or thread adapters in the two 5-packs that I've used. Economical solution. But I do like the DeKups better.
 
krw5927 said:
Interesting. I haven't had a problem with any of the HF cups or thread adapters in the two 5-packs that I've used. Economical solution. But I do like the DeKups better.
Click to expand...

Very interesting indeed. Can't imagine I'm using incorrectly - pretty straightforward:D Easy enough for me to clean out the permanent cup, but would be nice to have cheap disposables.
 
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