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Why no RV Owners Association?

plehrke

Well Known Member
Patron
Note to moderators: I know this is close to the edge or rules because it contains the word politics but it is very RV related.

I was Just reading the article by AOPA that 21 flying organizations sent a petition to NTSB asking the panel to "publicly convey that general aviation is one of the safest modes of transportation in the United States."

The letter was signed by the following groups.
In addition to AOPA, the letter was signed by the Aeronca Aviators Club, Aircraft Electronics Association, Bellanca-Champion Club, Cardinal Flyers Online LLC, Cessna Pilots Society, Commemorative Air Force, Experimental Aircraft Association, Flying Dentists Association, Flying Physicians Association, International Council of Air Shows, International 180/185 Club, Lancair Owners and Builders Organization, Light Aircraft Manufacturers Association, Malibu/Mirage Owners & Pilots Association, Mooney Summit, National Agricultural Aviation Association, National Association of State Aviation Officials, National Business Aviation Association, Recreational Aviation Foundation, and Sonex Builders and Pilots Foundation.

There are a few certified aircraft clubs/groups but interesting that there is a Lancair owners and Builders and a Sonex Builders and Pilots Association. RVs would be a very large organization compared to these. Why no formal Vans RV builders/owners group?

Maybe because Van himself already has a voice on many of the experimental and general aviation influencing boards/committees. Maybe because we have this forum already for us to organize/communicate and have many vendors/FAA//EAA/AOPA/etc officials that regularly read and comment here.

I am not advocating that this or any new RV org needs to be formed. I am just wondering why other, smaller EAB "type clubs "groups have formed and have become involved in sending political letters.
 
VOPA? Vans Owners and Pilots Association..... I agree, it is strange that there is no National group to advocate our interests.

-Marc
 
Well, first it requires an individual (or a few individuals) willing to do the work, either for the group good, or for personal gain.

Second, the individual(s) must actually have the talent to make it thrive.

Third, it requires a reason (often some perceived crisis) which drives individuals to join and stay.

Last, all three must be more or less permanent.

Apply the above to the Vans community, and one or more of the above factors is missing at this time. Frankly, we're in the catbird seat. Van himself already represents our interests very well. The company is stable. Customer conflict is rare, and when it does happen, it tends to be individual in nature, not a group crisis. There are no supply or regulatory issues specific to Vans owners. Reality is that everybody in the EAB community caters to RV builders, because frankly, without us they will become insolvent or appear incompetent.

Nothing is more sure than change, but for now, an association doesn't seem likely.
 
The company is stable. Customer conflict is rare, and when it does happen, it tends to be individual in nature, not a group crisis. There are no supply or regulatory issues specific to Vans owners. Reality is that everybody in the EAB community caters to RV builders, because frankly, without us they will become insolvent or appear incompetent.

Question answered. I agree with the rest of your post but actually think what I quoted is the answer. If this was not true, the other 4 points would become true.
 
This forum provides most of the functions of those groups as far as builder/owner sharing and "fellowship"... probably moreso than most of those other groups. EAA (and AOPA) provide for group advocacy. I am sure that if there ever was a need, this large group could be brought to bare as needed.
 
I think this website is the closest the Van's community has to an Owners and Pilots Association. I don't know what else an OPA would offer that we don't already have here, or that isn't already covered by one of the more general umbrella groups. AOPA (or in Canada, COPA) lobbies for the general access to aviation. EAA (or in Canada, RAA) lobbies for Amateur-built aircraft and rules surrounding them. That leaves specific aircraft knowledge for building, owning, and maintaining for the type-specific clubs. VAF is it for us.
 
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I think this website is the closest the Van's community has to an Owners and Pilots Association. I don't know what else an OPA would offer that we don't already have here, or that isn't already covered by one of the more general umbrella groups. AOPA (or in Canada, COPA) lobbies for the general access to aviation. EAA (or in Canada, RAA) lobbies for Amateur-built aircraft and rules surrounding them. That leaves specific aircraft knowledge for building, owning, and maintaining for the type-specific clubs. VAF is it for us.

This is why EVERYONE should donate to this sight.
It has it all without all the politics!!!!!!


Boomer
 
Given the purpose of a lobbying organization, why wouldn't the size, experience, and purpose of EAA be the right association for Van's owners and pilots?
 
Given the purpose of a lobbying organization, why wouldn't the size, experience, and purpose of EAA be the right association for Van's owners and pilots?

Good observation - and five of the seven members of the current EAA Homebuilt Advisory Council are RV Builders/Pilots.......
 
+1 for VAF meeting most of the needs of an association

+1 for supporting EAA to do the lobbying. (And AOPA too, although not focused on EAB)

Although.... As the OP brought up, the petition was signed by a long list of organizations.

It might be the case that a petition signed by a litany of organizations, even if small or even mostly inactive, might carry more convincing weight than one big organization. Congressional staffers probably don't do background check on the signatories. One might argue that the same people are members of several of the organizations. But I don't think it matters. It may be that adding another itemized voice would be beneficial.

So, it might be a constructive and useful addition to the voices that already speak on our behalf.

Here's an idea. What if such an association could be formed with almost no effort at all. Everyone that pays the voluntary yearly donation to VAF is automatically a member of the VAF Association. Doug maintains a contributor list - it is defacto the membership list in the association.

There. An official RV owners and builders association, called the VAF Association.

Now there is just one more step that is necessary, and that takes a bit of work. Someone needs to speak up when there is an issue that the VAF Association should take a position on or endorse something.
Any member of the VAF Association would be able to propose taking some action by posting on the forum. Then, through a forum poll, members essentially vote on the action.
Finally, someone needs to follow through by writing an endorsement letter or opinion letter - maybe that could be the member that brought up the issue, or it might have to be Doug if it is articulating an opinion.

Probably some details to work out, but maybe the easiest owners association ever.
 
Yips!

This forum provides most of the functions of those groups as far as builder/owner sharing and "fellowship"... probably moreso than most of those other groups. EAA (and AOPA) provide for group advocacy. I am sure that if there ever was a need, this large group could be brought to bare as needed.

Shuddering at the thought of you guys brought to "bare"!
 
Now there is just one more step that is necessary, and that takes a bit of work. Someone needs to speak up when there is an issue that the VAF Association should take a position on or endorse something.
Any member of the VAF Association would be able to propose taking some action by posting on the forum. Then, through a forum poll, members essentially vote on the action.
Finally, someone needs to follow through by writing an endorsement letter or opinion letter

Yeah, yeah, I nominate Steve Smith! He is retired! He has plenty of time!

Bwahahahahah!
 
RV Owners Association? We have one. It's called Vans Airforce. The only thing missing is the part that all other associations have. It's called dues. Doug has chosen (wisely), in order to keep it non-political and possibly other reasons, to request 'donations' instead. Unfortunately there are many who use this group site regularly who do not contribute. This creates an unfortunate burden on one man's family, while enabling the growth of a true organization of passionate flyers. I know there are other groups like ours, but none of them are the size or nature of ours. Our group includes flyers, builders, designers, and experimenters, like a few others groups of smaller size, be we, collectively, have a strong voice. This is understood by many supporters of this site, like Vans Aircraft, Steinair, Garmin, and many others, who are getting beneficial exposure at a fair price. So.... what other commercial enterprise/advertisers site/forum group, do you know of that gets the kind of recognition that VAF gets in important aviation publications and large aviation venues than we do? Answer - none! We are essentially an association of RV builders and flyers - the largest in the world of this type - and I don't know what could be gained by starting an owners association. I think that if you make your annual contribution to VAF, you can consider yourself a member of VAF - a worthwhile 'Association'.
 
VAF provides all of the benefits of a Type club?

The most important function of the best Type clubs is initial and recurrent training. A "VOPA" would be an ideal vehicle for establishing a "VPPP."*





*Van's Pilots' Proficiency Program
 
With the digital age much of the activity has moved online, so VAF fills that niche quite nicely ...

That being said, there's a few things that could be of interest:

- Advocacy to the manufacturer from the owners and pilots. Seems to me like sometimes there are points of disagreement that could benefit from a more formal structure to voice concerns .... and:
- More formal ways to gather data from the membership. So for things like cracked steps, or nose gear issues, an "OPA" could potentially organize in such a way as to provide better data than just an online poll. This could be for the benefit of members, or again, to enter in conversation with the kit manufacturer. Send e-mails/letters to members, asking for specific data points, and so on ...
- Training programs, improved/different documentation, manuals, etc.
- More visibility. Although the online forums work, not everyone is here. If you have an association that does outreach, prints posters, organizes RV fly in days, etc. under a single "brand", there could maybe be some long term value in that, specific to RV's?

More generally speaking, sometimes a more structured approach to certain challenges, beyond the ad-hoc nature of an online forum, can sometimes be useful, and a "VOPA" could provide that structure ...
 
Another thing offered by the better "OPA's" is "Service Clinics." These are brief inspections, where an expert in the type crawls around your airplane with a mirror and a flashlight, inspecting known trouble spots. For Bonanzas, it takes an hour or so. And while you're waiting for your airplane to be inspected, you can observe the inspection of other airplanes (with the owners' permission). If you look at 4 airplanes with 10 years of use on them, that's 40 cumulative years of operational wear and tear you're looking at.

You won't get that online.
 
RV Owners Association? We have one. It's called Vans Airforce. The only thing missing is the part that all other associations have. It's called dues. Doug has chosen (wisely), in order to keep it non-political and possibly other reasons, to request 'donations' instead. Unfortunately there are many who use this group site regularly who do not contribute. This creates an unfortunate burden on one man's family, while enabling the growth of a true organization of passionate flyers. I know there are other groups like ours, but none of them are the size or nature of ours. Our group includes flyers, builders, designers, and experimenters, like a few others groups of smaller size, be we, collectively, have a strong voice. This is understood by many supporters of this site, like Vans Aircraft, Steinair, Garmin, and many others, who are getting beneficial exposure at a fair price. So.... what other commercial enterprise/advertisers site/forum group, do you know of that gets the kind of recognition that VAF gets in important aviation publications and large aviation venues than we do? Answer - none! We are essentially an association of RV builders and flyers - the largest in the world of this type - and I don't know what could be gained by starting an owners association. I think that if you make your annual contribution to VAF, you can consider yourself a member of VAF - a worthwhile 'Association'.

+1. If there were a VAPO and money was involved, only 6% would participate!
 
+1. If there were a VAPO and money was involved, only 6% would participate!

Maybe ... or maybe not. As with anything, it's a value proposition. If the price is right and the benefits are seen to be worth it, you just might get better uptake ... One could look at the Sonex OPA ... or the Glasair one ... to see what works and what doesn't. The Cirrus one seems to have some size and clout to it, clearly they're doing something right and people are willing to pay for the benefits.

BTW another benefit could be discounts on products for members ... which you sometimes see with VAF advertisers!
 
- More formal ways to gather data from the membership. So for things like cracked steps, or nose gear issues, an "OPA" could potentially organize in such a way as to provide better data than just an online poll.

That defiantly would be an upside and a service we currently do not have but are in need of, as the RV fleet grows and ages.
I think I would be willing to send an RV organization a summary of all maintenance actions I have had to perform. Just cut and paste from the logbook. I do not see any reason not to as it is already in the logbook and would be available for inspection if sold or involved in an incident anyway. If even 10% of the owners participated, that would be a database of 900-1000 airplanes. Pretty good sampling. Work comes in having someone collect, organize, and make available the data and trends. Also would need to classify issues differently then current certified owners clubs do since every one in the database was built different.
 
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