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RV-8 wheel landing....

D

David-aviator

Well Known Member
...I won't do it any other way.

The last 2 mornings were very calm, nice flying in perfectly still air. But today was different. It was not windy, windy by any standards but it was not calm. Two airports were reporting 10 knots or so with gusts to 15 at Spirit.

So the test - can I land the beast in a cross wind, any cross wind?

Apparently I can, did not bounce or bend metal. Its like landing any airplane in a cross wind, lower the upwind wing and apply rudder to keep it straight. And as soon as it touches, a bit of forward stick to keep it glued to the ground and try to keep it straight with rudder.

Did 2 on hard surface, quartering headwind and one on the grass with direct crosswind. I measured the landing distance on the grass, with very little braking it was stopped in 800', the runway slopes uphill a little so that helps.

Pilots need to develop personal techniques that produce good results. Neophyte that I am with a tail dragger, I can not imagine doing anything but wheeling the RV-8 on - it works - for me.

You can apply gentle brakes before the tail comes down. As the machine slows and the tail is lowered, brakes can still be used gently. I'm sure a hard stomp could cause a nose over, but you can feel what it is doing as you brake gently, it is better than no braking if the situation warrants it.

I have a problem controlling direction after the tail comes down, the tail wheel is so sensitive at 40 knots, it is different than he rudder, stuff to learn and tweak.

It was not a gusty, gusty day but the experience was the beginning of taking on more crosswind.

8.8 hours in RV-8, 27 landings, about half of them were ok the rest could have been better. So far the airplane appears to have no bad habits but it has not been flown at aft CG, that will come.

If anyone wishes to report aft cg differences, I will read and appreciate the comments.
 
David, is there any way to extend the steering arms on the tailwheel? Or shorten the throw at the rudder?

I've seen it done on quite a few Pittses and reduces the sensitivity quite a bit.

Best,
 
Like many, I find the airplane is much easier to control with the tail up. As a consequence, I have developed the habit of maintaining flying attitude (tail up) as long as possible on the rollout. This involves more and more down elevator as the airplane slows, and when the tail finally drops, I snatch the stick back to pin the tail for taxi. Sometimes, when braking is involved, I'm completely stopped before the tail drops.

Incidentally, I also do this on the Rocket and actually have a video of me nearly putting it on the nose doing this, so be careful. It's a tenuous balancing act to take it that far and I'm not advocating that the practice is right for anyone, but it can be done.

Just a data point.
 
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For the tailwheel sensitivity, you'll get used to it. I keep my tail up as long as I can and that helps. If you have a link instead of chains it's like power steering for the tailwheel. No dancing required.

As for your aft CG question, you will notice that the pitch gets much more sensitive. You will fly down to your normal step and when you pull to level off...you're heading uphill instead. It takes a lighter touch with the CG aft. Nothing to get worried about, just be aware.

Have fun!
 
David-aviator said:
I have a problem controlling direction after the tail comes down, the tail wheel is so sensitive at 40 knots, it is different than he rudder, stuff to learn and tweak.
Click to expand...

I'm very far from an expert, but I WAY over controlled after the tail came down. Putting that link back in the chains that I took out helped. It let's me dance more on the rudder without kicking in the tailwheel.

Still working on it though....

Don
 
So do you guys who advocate keeping the tail up as long as possible feel that is wise in gusty x-wind conditions? And ill-timed gust could put you in the ditch in that time when the tail is coming down with practically zero rudder authority. Yes, you have brake, but I've never understood the point of doing this. You're giving up control...only because the tailwheel steering is "sensitive"? There are lots of sensitive airplanes out there. The answer is for the pilot to develop more sensitive feet.
 
It has been my experience (and I have a LOT of gusty crosswind, narrow runway experience) that the tail in the air gives more directional control than with the little wheel on the ground. And this is primarily due to the locking mechanism of the Vans or AP tailwheel. There have been plenty of times I've stabbed the pedal to counter a gust only to have the tailwheel unlock. Direct steering or locking type, I would feel differently.
 
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luddite42 said:
So do you guys who advocate keeping the tail up as long as possible feel that is wise in gusty x-wind conditions? And ill-timed gust could put you in the ditch in that time when the tail is coming down with practically zero rudder authority. Yes, you have brake, but I've never understood the point of doing this. You're giving up control...only because the tailwheel steering is "sensitive"? There are lots of sensitive airplanes out there. The answer is for the pilot to develop more sensitive feet.
Click to expand...

That has happened to me and it required some braking to correct. Not sure it would have been any different with the tail on the ground as it likely would have castored. I am still learning though so my technique is far from perfected. Putting the tail down with a crosswind is still a bit tricky for me. Higher speed seems to pop the tail straight into castor as the rudder is in when the wheel touches, but slower speed has an area where authority is lacking. Either way I end up using some brakes....but leaving the tail up means by the time I'm using brakes for directional control, the speed is reduced and that time is brief.
 
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pierre smith said:
David, is there any way to extend the steering arms on the tailwheel? Or shorten the throw at the rudder?

I've seen it done on quite a few Pittses and reduces the sensitivity quite a bit.

Best,
Click to expand...

Pierre, there probably is a way to do it but the arm may be optimized already. I believe Vans uses the same throw on all the tail draggers.

Might be better for me to learn how to handle it.
 
David-aviator said:
Pierre, there probably is a way to do it but the arm may be optimized already. I believe Vans uses the same throw on all the tail draggers.

Might be better for me to learn how to handle it.
Click to expand...

I think in a week of flying, you won't even think about it David. The ongoing debate between tight chains and loose chains has been going on for, oh....a hundred years? No right answer - just what is right for each individual's reactions.;)

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
I think in a week of flying, you won't even think about it David. The ongoing debate between tight chains and loose chains has been going on for, oh....a hundred years? No right answer - just what is right for each individual's reactions.;)

Paul
Click to expand...

Paul, I am using the FLYBOY Rocket link, I like it and need to get used to not over doing in after the tail is down.
 
Sig600 said:
Best example I've seen of an RV-8 landing. Kudos whoever you are.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KX5G10CZLEo
Click to expand...

That's an OK regular wheel landing. THIS is the best RV-8 landing I've seen. Nice approach, no excessive speed, and nice 3-pointer with no float...which is rarely seen by RV pilots. Very pure. Notice how short the landing was. Apparently nobody told this guy RV-8s can't be 3-pointed...or the news hasn't reached the UK yet. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwPozNnEg6g
 
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Personal experience

David-aviator said:
...I won't do it any other way.

The last 2 mornings were very calm, nice flying in perfectly still air. But today was different. It was not windy, windy by any standards but it was not calm. Two airports were reporting 10 knots or so with gusts to 15 at Spirit.

So the test - can I land the beast in a cross wind, any cross wind?

Apparently I can, did not bounce or bend metal. Its like landing any airplane in a cross wind, lower the upwind wing and apply rudder to keep it straight. And as soon as it touches, a bit of forward stick to keep it glued to the ground and try to keep it straight with rudder.

Did 2 on hard surface, quartering headwind and one on the grass with direct crosswind. I measured the landing distance on the grass, with very little braking it was stopped in 800', the runway slopes uphill a little so that helps.

Pilots need to develop personal techniques that produce good results. Neophyte that I am with a tail dragger, I can not imagine doing anything but wheeling the RV-8 on - it works - for me.

You can apply gentle brakes before the tail comes down. As the machine slows and the tail is lowered, brakes can still be used gently. I'm sure a hard stomp could cause a nose over, but you can feel what it is doing as you brake gently, it is better than no braking if the situation warrants it.

I have a problem controlling direction after the tail comes down, the tail wheel is so sensitive at 40 knots, it is different than he rudder, stuff to learn and tweak.

It was not a gusty, gusty day but the experience was the beginning of taking on more crosswind.

8.8 hours in RV-8, 27 landings, about half of them were ok the rest could have been better. So far the airplane appears to have no bad habits but it has not been flown at aft CG, that will come.

If anyone wishes to report aft cg differences, I will read and appreciate the comments.
Click to expand...

David,

I agree with you that every pilot needs to find the techniques that works best for them.

I think I'm in the minority with some of my preferences, but here are some of them:

1. I actually prefer the feel of the stock Vans tail wheel fork over some of the high clearance designs such as the Bell Fork. The bell fork is nice to taxi with, but to me, the Vans fork feels much more stable and solid during landing roll out.

2. I'm using the Tail Lynx steering cable setup that Vans sells. I have the cables set up with some slack, because I feel this is more forgiving in cross wind situations when the tail is first lowered to the ground.

3. I prefer to gently lower the tail to the runway while I still have considerable rolling speed. This keeps the rudder effective for better stability and control when the tail is first set down.

4. I DO NOT "pin the tail wheel" with full back stick until I've verified that the plane ins rolling straight after putting the tail wheel down. Then, I'll only pin the tail wheel if I have a gusty crosswind, otherwise I leave the stick neutral for the remainder of the roll out.

5. Be very ready for a cross wind gust when rolling tail down at low speed. This is the real danger zone for a heading upset when you don't have much air flow over the rudder to assist with directional control for counter acting crosswind gusts.

6. After a handful of hours in my plane, I realized that it seemed mildly unpredictable and "darty" after the tail was set down. Initially, I had the main axles aligned per the plans with 0 tow in/tow out. I remeasured and decided I had about 0.1 - 0.2 degrees of toe in (with the plane in level attitude). I decided to install 1/2 degree wedge shims which gave me 0.2 -0.3 degrees of toe out. This made an unbelievable difference in stability, and I highly recommend this to anyone experiencing stability problems during roll out. I never would have believed this if I didn't see it for myself.

7. Finally, the rudder is very sensitive when compared to something like a Citabria. Eventually you will get used to giving just the right amount of toe movement for making small corrections during landing roll out.

Skylor
RV-8
 
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David-aviator said:
Paul, I am using the FLYBOY Rocket link, I like it and need to get used to not over doing in after the tail is down.
Click to expand...

I'm a "link" guy as well (with Silver Bullets on all three planes) - I just like the positive control aspect of it. Very early in my RV-8 flying (Phase 1), I had a couple of "darts" after landing in a stiff crosswind, but none since. You'll adapt very quickly.
 
This is like telling someone how to kiss.

You'll figure it out and you will be great at it.
 
Toobuilder said:
It has been my experience (and I have a LOT of gusty crosswind, narrow runway experience) that the tail in the air gives more directional control than with the little wheel on the ground.
Click to expand...

But not when the tail is kept up as long as possible, and just before it drops. Just before, and as the tail is dropping, you can kick the rudder stop to stop with very little reaction. Fine if you want to wheel land, but I've just never understood the ones who advocate holding the tail up as absolutely long as possible. That will be very slow, and you will NOT have a lot of directional control, other than brakes. Whatever works for you I guess.
 
Although mine is a 7 (Catto prop) I almost exclusively wheel land, not quite done flying in the three point attitude and just skips down the runway.

I agree with Paul, several more hours and you won't know the difference. I spent the first 30 hours with the stock chains and liked them. Then I switched to the steering link and found it much touchier/twitchy with the tail down. 5 hours later I would hate to go back to chains, I like the more direct feel of the link FWIW.
 
Well, I'm up to 11.8 hours and still enjoying the heck out of it. The RV-8 is the airplane for me and I should have gone for it years ago.

Changed oil at 10 hours, pulled the screen, no evidence of anything bad going on, going with mineral oil another 30 hours even the though the rings are seated IMHO. Temps are normal and it has not used a drop of oil. Of late I've been flying around LOP getting the plugs cleaned up. The engine, a Barrett Superior IO360 180 HP is running very smooth with the Catto prop.

The only thing bad coming out of the oil change was my brain forgot I was on a 12" step stool checking the engine compartment and when stepping off it backwards tripped and fell on the left arm and shoulder. The left wrist took most of the fall energy and after an x-ray determined it was not broken, just badly sprained and swollen. I flew with a splint on it yesterday, figuring Douglas Bader flew with a wooden leg, I can fly with a splint. All it had to do was move the throttle land raise the flaps. :)

Shot 5 landings at 5 different airports and all went well. I am now up to 10 knots of cross wind and still no bent metal, am getting more satisfaction leaning to fly the 8 than building it. Life could be worse.
 
I'm with you Dave;
The 8 is the plane for me!
My best landings are a cross between the two videos. I like to make a tail low wheels landing and let the tail wheel down fairly early. Of course, all my landings are different, or should I say 'Unique?'
I've landed similar to both videos, but compared to the 2nd, I prefer a little more reserve lift at the round-out / flair in case the landing headwind stops abruptly.
I like the way the gear legs handle the bumps and irregular surfaces better than the rod type gear.
I'm in the middle of changing the engine now, so I'm suffering RV withdrawal...Brrr!
 
Keeping the tail up on rollout is fun in calm or constant wind, but you will eventually run out of rudder authority and brake in a gusty situation just when you need it most.

You may not groundloop but you can put some pretty serious side loads on your tailwheel and bulkheads when the tailwheel comes down.

Just like you add half the gust factor to your approach speed, fly the tail down to the ground earlier when conditions dictate.
 
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