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Today's front page & Class E airspace

xblueh2o

Well Known Member
Seeing the article about Class E airspace got me thinking about something a former student of mine asked the other day that I couldn't find a good answer for. Wondering if there is anyone in the VAF braintrust from around the Las Vegas area that can shed some light.
About 40NM west of Las Vegas, starting just east of Calvada Meadows airport (74P) and running north to near Desert Rock airport there is a rectangular section of Class E airspace where on the outside Class E begins at 1200 AGL and on the inside it would be 14,500 MSL. That is simple enough. The question is why? What is the reason for this very specific shape and sized area?

If there are any instructors/pilots from the Vegas area who know why I would love to hear the reasoning for the shape, size and placement of this area.

Another interesting thing is, if you look at a sectional the rectangle is there. If you look at the Foreflight Aero chart, it isn't.


[ed. Link to article: http://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/airspace/class-e/ v/r,dr]
 
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About 40NM west of Las Vegas, starting just east of Calvada Meadows airport (74P) and running north to near Desert Rock airport there is a rectangular section of Class E airspace where on the outside Class E begins at 1200 AGL and on the inside it would be 14,500 MSL. That is simple enough. The question is why? What is the reason for this very specific shape and sized area?

According to the IFR low chart that looks like a MOA. They could tell you but then they'd have to...
 
Not marked as a MOA on the Sectional.

That is an odd thing indeed. Exactly 1 nm wide, and 25 nm long.

Maybe it is a designated Phase I test area for E-AB? I'm joking!!!!

The practical significance of making that sliver class-G rather than class-E is just the visibility and cloud clearance limits for VFR.

This is just a guess: It does extend inside the boundary of a Restricted Area, so maybe it is a corridor to permit entry and egress to/from the Restricted Area for UAVs or other aircraft that are mandated to fly VFR?
 
the article referenced by the home-page story says, "In class E airspace, IFR traffic is controlled by ATC."

This begs the question, and forgive me, I'm not IFR rated -- but isn't IFR traffic ALWAYS controlled by ATC? Is the author implying that an appropriately rated pilot in an appropriately certified airplane can fly IFR in class G airspace without a clearance from ATC?
 
Is the author implying that an appropriately rated pilot in an appropriately certified airplane can fly IFR in class G airspace without a clearance from ATC?

This is correct, although you are still obligated to fly at least 1000’ (2000’ in designated mountainous areas) above terrain and obstacles, and descend using only published approaches. So you have to be sure you will enter VMC, or have an ifr clearance, prior to entering controlled airspace.
A few years back, several airports along northern CA’s coast sat in class G up to 5000’. It was common for an ifr rated pilot to depart without an ATC clearance, climb thru the coastal stratus to VMC still in class G, then depart into class E under VFR.
Of course, collision avoidance was based on the big sky theory.
These days it’s hard to find enough class G to do this.
 
although you are still obligated to fly at least 1000? (2000? in designated mountainous areas) above terrain and obstacles, and descend using only published approaches.

You are thinking airplanes. There are a lot of ag helicopters in the coastal fog regions of NorCal that routinely operate under non-VFR-legal conditions. Even for airplanes my understanding is that it's perfectly legal to conduct an entire flight in zero visibility between two class G airports without talking to anyone, as long as controlled airspace is never entered.
 
Not marked as a MOA on the Sectional.

Correct. The brown shading on IFR low simply means "uncontrolled airspace to 14500'", but most instances are in proximity to restricted areas and MOAs, meaning civilian ATC can't guarantee separation there from 1200 AGL to 14500 MSL. Since there's a "bombing and gunnery range" right next to it, that seems like a pretty good guess why. :D
 
You are thinking airplanes. There are a lot of ag helicopters in the coastal fog regions of NorCal that routinely operate under non-VFR-legal conditions. Even for airplanes my understanding is that it's perfectly legal to conduct an entire flight in zero visibility between two class G airports without talking to anyone, as long as controlled airspace is never entered.

FAR 91.175 does require you to use a published approach to descend under ifr. Descent below the MDA/DA without the required visibility is not allowed. While many published approaches take you into class G, I know of none that start in class G.
 
FAR 91.175 does require you to use a published approach to descend under ifr. Descent below the MDA/DA without the required visibility is not allowed. While many published approaches take you into class G, I know of none that start in class G.

That is true for flights under IFR. If it never enters controlled airspace, the flight isn't compliant with part 91 regardless of visual conditions. In the case of ag helicopters they typically return to the take-off location, which may have neither departure nor approach procedures published.

I'm no expert on this, but do remember a discussion a few years ago about why the airspace adjacent to KSNS class D got redrawn to add a class E rectangle. The explanation I was given was that it was to limit these kinds of helicopter ops within the marine layer. I see now that the sectional got redrawn yet again and the NW rectangle went away, but there's still a rectangle to the SE (toward Chualar, touching the KMRY rectangle) that's very hard to see. The ILS/LPV 31 doesn't need protected this far out as the terrain doesn't rise in this direction, so it must be something else. In contrast, the KMRY rectangle is probably to clear the mountain on the missed.
 
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Seeing the article about Class E airspace got me thinking about something a former student of mine asked the other day that I couldn't find a good answer for. Wondering if there is anyone in the VAF braintrust from around the Las Vegas area that can shed some light.
About 40NM west of Las Vegas, starting just east of Calvada Meadows airport (74P) and running north to near Desert Rock airport there is a rectangular section of Class E airspace where on the outside Class E begins at 1200 AGL and on the inside it would be 14,500 MSL. That is simple enough. The question is why? What is the reason for this very specific shape and sized area?

Its not Class E, its a narrow strip of Class G that lies outside the boundaries of two Class E areas. Why they didn't just merge the two areas I couldn't say. An artifact of how the chart was made perhaps?
 
Interesting. I also note the same feature where they show up when looking at the sectional but are not depicted when looking at Foreflight Aero chart.
Curious indeed.

Perhaps for the case above the ForeFlight chart is depicting the Grand Canyon VFR Sectional Chart?

The funny dogleg, with a break for V-293, is on the Las Vegas Sectional but not on the Grand Canyon one.

The Grand Canyon chart is dated 2001, but is current until replaced. Perhaps the funny dogleg got added to the regular sectionals after 2001?
 
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Perhaps for the case above the ForeFlight chart is depicting the Grand Canyon VFR Sectional Chart?

The funny dogleg, with a break for V-293, is on the Las Vegas Sectional but not on the Grand Canyon one.

The Grand Canyon chart is dated 2001, but is current until replaced. Perhaps the funny dogleg got added to the regular sectionals after 2001?

Just to be precise, there *is* no "Grand Canyon VFR Sectional Chart". There's a "Grand Canyon VFR Aeronautical Chart", though. :)
 
Airspace action is done by the federal rulemaking process and I would bet that there was an uncaught discrepancy in the lat/long description of two airspace actions describing Class E airspace that was never noticed and not resolved. The charting folks just take what they get and chart it.

A diligent researcher could probably eventually find the Federal Register entries and compare lat/longs for airspace boundary descriptions and resolve it, or get another hobby.

It should be fixed and if the right person in the right FAA regional airspace office was advised it probably would be eventually, but it would not be a priority.
 
Airspace action is done by the federal rulemaking process and I would bet that there was an uncaught discrepancy in the lat/long description of two airspace actions describing Class E airspace that was never noticed and not resolved. The charting folks just take what they get and chart it.

A diligent researcher could probably eventually find the Federal Register entries and compare lat/longs for airspace boundary descriptions and resolve it, or get another hobby.

It should be fixed and if the right person in the right FAA regional airspace office was advised it probably would be eventually, but it would not be a priority.

Hmm, possibly. Though theres some pretty important airspace in that area for that to be a simple mistake.
 
There is also a similar one, but slightly trapezoidal and with a dogleg in this case, just West of Page (PGA)
There was a previous discussion about that, but I'll be dipped if I can find it. I don't think we came up with any good answers.
 
I live in Page and asked my CFI about it, he stated it was Class G due to poor radar coverage. The box basically follows a ridge from Bryce down to Cameron Arizona. I think the shading is important as it shades out and not in, as does the box west of Las Vegas.
 
The Thunderbirds practice out of Indian Springs. They might use this line for that practice and want a higher level of ATC control. Just a guess based on what goes on in that area. But that is backward isn't it? E control starts at 14.5 (floor) inside the rectangle. Plus I belive the Thunderbirds practice over the runway at Indian Springs.
 
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You are thinking airplanes. There are a lot of ag helicopters in the coastal fog regions of NorCal that routinely operate under non-VFR-legal conditions. Even for airplanes my understanding is that it's perfectly legal to conduct an entire flight in zero visibility between two class G airports without talking to anyone, as long as controlled airspace is never entered.

My understanding is that Class G airspace requires 1 mile visibility and clear of clouds. I often depart my field when IFR. I have 700' to the Class E. I have verified this with various CFI's. The regs are pretty clear on 1 mile and clear of clouds. The helo's may have special regs or exceptions.

Larry
 
So that Class E area is around the Grand Canyon. The problem is, if Class E started at 1200 AGL.. then that would mean, in some areas of the canyon, that Class E would start inside the canyon and extend upwards.

Since area inside the canyon is pretty much an ATC deadzone as far as radio and radar.. it can't really be "controlled".. the only airport inside that area is Marble Canyon..which has no IFR approaches.
 
My understanding is that Class G airspace requires 1 mile visibility and clear of clouds. I often depart my field when IFR. I have 700' to the Class E. I have verified this with various CFI's. The regs are pretty clear on 1 mile and clear of clouds. The helo's may have special regs or exceptions.

Larry

At or below 1200? AGL in class G, the VFR minimums are as you say, so under such conditions you are operating under vfr rules. For helicopters their minimum is 1/2 mile visibility. You need to be sure you will have ?standard? 3 miles and 500 below/1000? above etc prior to entering class E. It can sometimes be hard to know for sure what the vis/cloud situation is 700? up, if you?re sitting in 1 mile. Or, sometimes it?s obvious.
 
At or below 1200’ AGL in class G, the VFR minimums are as you say, so under such conditions you are operating under vfr rules. For helicopters their minimum is 1/2 mile visibility. You need to be sure you will have ‘standard’ 3 miles and 500 below/1000’ above etc prior to entering class E. It can sometimes be hard to know for sure what the vis/cloud situation is 700’ up, if you’re sitting in 1 mile. Or, sometimes it’s obvious.

In my case, the class E is at 700 AGL. I only take off in questionable conditions when departing IFR and stay below 700 until cleared. I am only 8 miles from ORD and directly under the three primary approaches when landing East. Approach will not let me depart IFR when they are landing EAST, which is the norm in calmer winds. They will usually let me takeoff when landing West if I promise to be in the air a few seconds after my clearance.

I get the same **** coming home. We don't have an approach and the ATC union vehemently opposes it every time we try. Kinda sad that the union can dictate whether we get an approach. I shoot an approach at DPA and fly the 10 miles VFR.

Larry
 
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You still have the requirement operating IFR in Class G to maintain altitude at least 1000' above obstacles - which includes the ground - which is going to be hard to do if Class E starts at 700. How are you doing that?
 
You still have the requirement operating IFR in Class G to maintain altitude at least 1000' above obstacles - which includes the ground - which is going to be hard to do if Class E starts at 700. How are you doing that?

I don't. It's a grey area. The 1000 foot rule makes an exception for taking off and landing. I am only below the 1000' limit during my take off phase. However, that often becomes prolonged, as ATC isn't always prompt to give me my clearance. Sometimes they bring me up only to MVA altitude even. However, that is well above the 1000' mark.

I am kind of in a pickle, because there is simply no way to get a void clearance from Chicago approach when they are landing East at ORD. I and other have tried numerous times. Their guidance is to take off VFR and pick it up in the air. I figure that at least gives me some cover if anyone ever balks about it.

Lary
 
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