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Electronic Ignition... weighing it out.

jeffkersey

Well Known Member
I am coming up on 500hrs on my purchased flying RV7A. Dual Slick Mags. Running just fine. I read where I should have the Mags inspected to the tune of $500+ each. Reading about the fuel savings, non hot start issues, and inexpensive spark plugs have me thinking. The hesitations I am having is the rise in CHT and 100 hour inspections. (the P model E-Mag is what I have been considering). On really hot summer days, I can creep up over 400 degrees in a climb to a higher altitude if I want to do it in short order. I want my motor to last long beyond the 2000 TBO. I am only 4 years into aircraft ownership and maintenance and I have to admit my ignorance and inexperience with how the temps truly effect the motor. I have seen some folks say they see 20 degrees higher CHT with EI. Is this worth worrying about? Is that rise at a given fuel flow and making more power with the EI and just reducing the fuel flow would render the same CHT and power that the mag was producing with using less fuel? Can someone speak to the number of trouble free hours they have had out of P-model Emags? How long does your 100 hour inspection take?
 
I've had NO trouble free hours using pmags... Over 700 hours of trouble flying with ElectroAir's. One of the common problems with pmags is high CHT's. Electronic ignitions are great when they are installed and working properly. Easy starts hot or cold, smoother running engine.. I can't say the fuel economy is better since I never sat and compared. After running a single ElectroAir and mag for many years I pulled the mag and have been running dual ElectroAir's for more than 5 years.
 
Please keep in mind that these troubling CHT increases are related to an improper advance curve - the fact that it's electronic has nothing to do with that. Improperly timed Magneto's will cause the same problem.

Select the product that has the proper curve and you are golden.
 
Please keep in mind that these troubling CHT increases are related to an improper advance curve - the fact that it's electronic has nothing to do with that. Improperly timed Magneto's will cause the same problem.

Select the product that has the proper curve and you are golden.

Absolutely true.... The problem with pmags is an aggressive advance curve that causes high CHT's
 
I only run dual pMags (other than the RV-10 - but now have a six cylinder pMag in hand waiting to install on it). The RV-10 was my first experience with mags, and was a constant source of irritation (timing, maintains and especially plug cleaning) as I was spoiled from running dual pMags.

800 hours in an RV-8A with an IO-360 (parallel valve). Absolutely zero issues. I offer high CHT stories are not all that relevant for the majority of people. Run the pMag(s) with the timing jumper in and fly on.

I have some 300 hours running another brand of electronic ignition that had multiple problems from the first day, including two hard in flight failures. These ignitions were replaced with pMags.

If you do not take the time create a bullet proof power source for any EI other than pMag, you should just stay with mags.

Carl
About a month away from first engine start on the new RV-8 project - running dual pMags.
 
Please keep in mind that these troubling CHT increases are related to an improper advance curve - the fact that it's electronic has nothing to do with that. Improperly timed Magneto's will cause the same problem.

Select the product that has the proper curve and you are golden.

I couldn't agree more!

Search on my username, there are a number of posts about properly timing P-mags.

Check your PM's.
 
......I should have the Mags inspected to the tune of $500+ each. Reading about the fuel savings, non hot start issues, and inexpensive spark plugs have me thinking. The hesitations I am having is the rise in CHT and 100 hour inspections. (the P model E-Mag is what I have been considering). On really hot summer days, I can creep up over 400 degrees in a climb to a higher altitude

IMHO.... Lower your nose and climb out, all is good. Plugs should not need changing out till worn below service limits.....a long time if you manage things properly/leaning on ground. $3,500 is price for two EI units with wires, plug adapters etc. Guessing your ROI is about 1500 hrs excluding any fuel savings. You could sell the mags to offset. Most EI will need service sometime in their life by OEM. It?s your plane and we all like tinkering with them. I too have considered EI.... O320/160/FP. Personally I don?t see EI as a solution to a problem, but just another choice. YMMV
 
I have two comments:
#1, You can vary your P-Mag timing from inside the cockpit if you add one of the interfaces (m-mags or other), so you could easily run a more favorable advance when climbing and then increase the advance for cruising. This would be an improvement over your current fixed timing.
#2, I would not avoid an upgrade because of a cooling issue. I would fix your cooling issue. It is either fuel flow or cooling air flow. Each are relatively easy to correct with some experimentation.

I had duel magnetos and after the third overhaul decided the p-mags would pay for themselves. I am very happy with them. I use the engine bridge to allow me to very the timing via my I-phone, but I never do.
 
Guessing your ROI is about 1500 hrs excluding any fuel savings. You could sell the mags to offset.

Discounting the fuel savings associated with electronic ignition is not necessarily good math.

Our O-360 is consistently burning a little more than 1gph less fuel than delineated in Lycoming's power charts. At 1gph the payback on investment in electronic ignition is very fast indeed. By my calculations, the single P-Mag on our engine has fully paid for itself by the time we hit the 500 hour mark.

When we get to that 500 hour mark the impulse-coupled Slick on the engine will be turfed in favor of another electronic ignition. The fuel savings with the second EI is a small increment over that saved by the first but by then I suspect I will have much better confidence in EI and greater willingness to be fully electronic.

So far (~200 hours) the P-Mag has provided excellent service.
 
Great Article...

Jeff, read the link below a few times, available courtesy of the author. And remember, as others have noted, electronic ignition does not increase CHT. Timing advance does. Some EI's offer full control of advance, including none at all.

https://www.danhorton.net/Misc/Nigel Speedy - Ignition Advance .pdf

Dan, Great article. Gives me stuff to chew on. Thanks for putting in all that work and analysis. 190KTAS-SMOKIN! I have never seen more than 175KTAS in my plane and I am not comfortable running it like that for very long. The extra fuel burn and heat to get it there is just not worth it for the extra 15 knots above my normal flight plan...
 
Dan, Great article. Gives me stuff to chew on. Thanks for putting in all that work and analysis. 190KTAS-SMOKIN! I have never seen more than 175KTAS in my plane and I am not comfortable running it like that for very long. The extra fuel burn and heat to get it there is just not worth it for the extra 15 knots above my normal flight plan...

Jeff, that is Nigel Speedy's work, not mine. Nigel is a professional test pilot. I consider the article to be one of the best available on the subject...a real Joe Friday, just-the-facts.
 
Jeff, read the link below a few times, available courtesy of the author. And remember, as others have noted, electronic ignition does not increase CHT. Timing advance does. Some EI's offer full control of advance, including none at all.

https://www.danhorton.net/Misc/Nigel Speedy - Ignition Advance .pdf

As Dan mentioned, this is a very good article regarding engine timing.

Since Nigel used our EICommander I feel compelled to make the following comments regarding safe operation of the EIC and P-mags:

1. If you are running and EIC, throttle back before sending the ignitions a new timing configuration. The newer EIC32 enforces this by limiting ignition changes to when the engine is turning less 2000 RPM.
2. With either model, if you wish to change the timing in flight for testing or say you want to bump it up or down when running different types of fuel, please use the On The Fly change feature. This feature is less disruptive to the ignitions firing sequence and does not require throttling back.
 
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my mistake...

Jeff, that is Nigel Speedy's work, not mine. Nigel is a professional test pilot. I consider the article to be one of the best available on the subject...a real Joe Friday, just-the-facts.

Ah, I see. Sorry Nigel. Great article. Dan, I guess when I saw the link was from your server,, I blasted right past the author title and got into the article thinking you had written it.
 
Copy that...

As Dan mentioned, this is a very good article regarding engine timing.

Since Nigel used our EICommander I feel compelled to make the following comments regarding safe operation of the EIC and P-mags:

1. If you are running and EIC, throttle back before sending the ignitions a new timing configuration. The newer EIC32 enforces this by limiting ignition changes to when the engine is turning less 2000 RPM.
2. With either model, if you wish to change the timing in flight for testing or say you want to bump it up or down when running different types of fuel, please use the On The Fly change feature.


Thanks for all the insight Bill. Looks like a cool device. The space in my panel is all used up. Maybe someday I can have something like this.
 
Even if you don?t have room for it, you can still install the pmags and live happily. I purchased a 9 recently that was already benefiting from them. Being stuck in a time warp the way I WAS, prior to the purchase I procured a set of mags and harnesses and proceeded to rebuild them because I was sure that those pmags were going to come off. Guess what? I?ve got a nice set of mags for sale. The pmags aren?t going anywhere. I get to fly with Nigel somewhat regularly and his 8 is a skyburner. Running lop with the emags is very economical
 
Bare in mind that you can not adjust the curve on a pmag, you can only shift it. Electronic ignitions are loaded with advantages over mags. But most importantly they are not all the same. There are many threads concerning EIs, lots of real information, not opinion, and far more with just opinion. What works for some may not work for others. I've spent many years collecting hard data on EI's, no sense in starting EI conflict here as it always turns into. Most pilots have no idea what their EI is doing cuz they have no way to monitor it during flight. Some pilots do have EI monitors and do know. Beware of opinion.
 
As Dan mentioned, this is a very good article regarding engine timing.

Since Nigel used our EICommander I feel compelled to make the following comments regarding safe operation of the EIC and P-mags:

1. If you are running and EIC, throttle back before sending the ignitions a new timing configuration. The newer EIC32 enforces this by limiting ignition changes to when the engine is turning less 2000 RPM.
2. With either model, if you wish to change the timing in flight for testing or say you want to bump it up or down when running different types of fuel, please use the On The Fly change feature. This feature is less disruptive to the ignitions firing sequence and does not require throttling back.

Just want to confirm. The EICommander requires you to throttle back to 2000 RPM in flight to make ignition changes. Is there an On the Fly feature? or is this only available under 2000 rpm?

Thanks,
Jim
 
Just want to confirm. The EICommander requires you to throttle back to 2000 RPM in flight to make ignition changes. Is there an On the Fly feature? or is this only available under 2000 rpm?

Thanks,
Jim

The On The Fly feature is available at any RPM as it does not change the entire configuration in the P-mags.
 
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