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  #1  
Old 01-27-2020, 09:56 AM
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Pilot135pd Pilot135pd is offline
 
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Location: Ben Wheeler, TX
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Default After an Unairworthy Condition Inspection

Was hangar flying with a friend the other day and the topic of the Annual Inspections and Condition Inspections came up.

On a Standard Airworthiness airplane the Inspection is done and there are 2 options that usually happen:

1- the discrepancies (or squawks) get fixed and the Annual Inspection is signed as Airworthy and returned to service.

2- the discrepancies get written up (squawk list) and the logbook is signed as Unairworthy with discrepancies given to owner. Then at least an A&P will correct the discrepancies and sign the logbooks with their certificate as done. That brings the plane back to Airworthy.


Then we started talking about Experimental airplanes:

All maintenance on my Experimental plane can be done by me. I'm not an A&P and don't have a Repairman certificate of any kind.

In Experimental airplanes the Condition Inspection must be done by at least an A&P.


Here's were we got stuck. Say an A&P does my Condition Inspection and finds some deficiencies. Can he sign the logbook as Unairworthy and give me a squawk list like a Standard airplane or does he have to repair anything and sign it as Airworthy?

If he can sign it as Unairworthy and give me a squawk list, can I fix the squawks and return it to service or does it have to be another A&P?

Please include FARs with your replies so I can research it further and learn from you. Thanks !


(*** In MY specific case it would most likely get fixed by another A&P because depending on what it is I probably don't have the expertise, but I'm asking in general terms. ***)
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Last edited by Pilot135pd : 01-27-2020 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 01-27-2020, 10:07 AM
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bkervaski bkervaski is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
In Experimental airplanes the Condition Inspection must be done by at least an A&P.
Not true .. If you hold a Repairmen Certificate for your airplane you can sign off your own condition inspection ..

Quote:
If he can sign it as Unairworthy and give me a squawk list, can I fix the squawks and return it to service or does it have to be another A&P?
I may be wrong, have never owned a certified aircraft, but I don't think an A&P can sign it off as "unairworthy" they simply don't sign it off at all until they find it airworthy (all the issues resolved).

But curious to me as well, since you don't have a repairmen certificate, what constitutes "maintenance"? I don't think, for example, replacing a control surface is maintenance. However, per Part 43, oil changes are.

So if you're not a Repairman are you limited to Part 43 like a certified aircraft?
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Last edited by bkervaski : 01-27-2020 at 10:14 AM.
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  #3  
Old 01-27-2020, 10:14 AM
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Pilot135pd Pilot135pd is offline
 
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bkervaski View Post
Not true .. If you hold a Repairmen Certificate for your airplane you can sign off your own condition inspection ..
I said an A&P is needed for the Condition Inspection because the Repairman can only do his own so someone with a Repairman certificate would not encounter the situations asked about in this topic.
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  #4  
Old 01-27-2020, 10:19 AM
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bkilby bkilby is offline
 
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Anyone can do anything on an experimental. Reskin it, rebuild the engine, change the tires, whatever... When it comes condition inspection time, gotta be the builder or have repairmen cert or any A&P can sign off on it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bkervaski View Post
Not true .. If you hold a Repairmen Certificate for your airplane you can sign off your own condition inspection ..



I may be wrong, have never owned a certified aircraft, but I don't think an A&P can sign it off as "unairworthy" they simply don't sign it off at all until they find it airworthy (all the issues resolved).

But curious to me as well, since you don't have a repairmen certificate, what constitutes "maintenance"? I don't think, for example, replacing a control surface is maintenance. However, per Part 43, oil changes are.

So if you're not a Repairman are you limited to Part 43 like a certified aircraft?
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  #5  
Old 01-27-2020, 10:25 AM
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Sam Buchanan Sam Buchanan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkervaski View Post
So if you're not a Repairman are you limited to Part 43 like a certified aircraft?
No.

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  #6  
Old 01-27-2020, 10:48 AM
fixnflyguy fixnflyguy is offline
 
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Default What I do

So, for topic of this thread, I am an AP/IA, and I do inspections on both certified, and experimental, many of which are RV's that were not built by the owners. I typically do the inspections with the owner present, because I learn what he or she has done, and they learn from my building/inspecting/legal aspect. If I find an issue needing immediate attention, I offer them the opportunity to correct it themselves, or have me do so. I make a list after the full inspection, and if they flew to my facility we correct before they leave. If I am inspecting at their own hangar, I will request the item be corrected (by them or myself), and I will then look at just those items to achieve the condition inspection. I never make a logbook entry of an aircraft being non-airworthy, or not in condition safe for flight...just bad taste to smear a logbook with that kind of stuff.
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  #7  
Old 01-27-2020, 10:56 AM
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DanBaier DanBaier is offline
 
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Hopefully Mel or Vic will weigh in.

I don't think the experimental aircraft is found to be "airworthy" (that it conforms to it's type certificate and approved data, and is in a condition for safe operation - definition per FAR). Instead, for an experimental, the logbook entry is specified word for word in the letter of authorization that came with the experimental airworthiness certificate - simply that the aircraft was inspected and found to be in a condition for safe operation.

It would seem to me that someone with the appropriate repairman's certificate or an A&P could inspect the aircraft. If it's in condition for safe operation, it gets a logbook entry. If not, there is just no entry made of any kind.

Dan
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  #8  
Old 01-27-2020, 11:03 AM
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rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
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I don't know an IA (myself included) that would get paid to sign something off as unairworthy. If I find something, as I often do, it gets fixed before the annual is signed off. Same goes for condition inspections.
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  #9  
Old 01-27-2020, 11:35 AM
jliltd jliltd is offline
 
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I completely agree with the sentiment that no IA and/or A&P should ever make an unairworthy emtry in a log book. That makes no sense unless someone is being vindictive at the worse or plain ignorant at the least.

If an aircraft owner doesn't want necessary airworthiness items addressed they can just pay for the work to date and take their airplane and log books back without an annual inspection or condition inspection entry.

Jim
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  #10  
Old 01-27-2020, 11:36 AM
BobTurner BobTurner is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkilby View Post
Anyone can do anything on an experimental. Reskin it, rebuild the engine, change the tires, whatever... When it comes condition inspection time, gotta be the builder or have repairmen cert or any A&P can sign off on it.
The builder signs off the first condition inspection, prior to the A/W inspection. After that, it has to be one of the last two -repairman or A&P. And FAA policy is to issue no more than one repairman certificate for a given airplane, and then only to an original builder.
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