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  #11  
Old 01-03-2020, 04:47 AM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jliltd View Post
...

This is a good development. Now that 2020 is upon us the FAA is starting to act like they are listening (unlike the last 5 years). I am working on another petition for exemption to the "always on" rule for non engine-driven electrical aircraft that want to fly within rule airspace with compliant "out" and then turn it off when out of rule airspace. AOPA legal team has been meeting with the FAA on it and we just used my Luscombe as the official petition aircraft that will set a precedent for other antique aircraft.

Jim
Be careful what you ask for.

You might trigger the FAA to mandate battery powered transponders and ADS-B in all non-electric aircraft, which would be very bad!
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  #12  
Old 01-03-2020, 05:24 AM
jliltd jliltd is offline
 
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Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
Be careful what you ask for.

You might trigger the FAA to mandate battery powered transponders and ADS-B in all non-electric aircraft, which would be very bad!
That's a fair question given the lack of detail in my post. You dont specify "where" in your statement where that could happen. And it would never happen, unless your statement implies "within Rule Airspace". Which is exactly our goal. Right now non engine-driven electrical aircraft cannot operate in Rule Airspace except for within the Mode C veil of Class B, outside of B. But never within any other Rule Airspace (Class C, A, ADIZ, etc..). Until non-electrical aircraft are allowed to turn off ADS-B equipment when outside of Rule Airspace that shunning applies. Period. So we are reducing that limitation allowing non-electrical acess to Rule Airspace at the option of the aircraft owner where there is none currently. This is a petitioning for exemption for this airplane only. Carefully crafted by the AOPA legal department using our aircraft as a poster child. Once the ice is broke it can become a precedent and create a template for any other non-electrical owner who desires acess to Rule Airspace or just wants the simple option to turn off installed equipment outside of Rule Airspace for whatever other reason. This has nothing to do with a change in regulation but rather provides a one-time one-ship exemption analogous to the proven existing LOA process while keeping regs in place.

The new ADS-B rule does not allow any equipped aircraft to ever turn off ADS-B out unless you are parked without the engine running. Regardless of location. Wthin Rule Airspace or not.
Anywhere on the surface or in the air, in the whole United States. Whether a maintenance run-up or taxiing on the ground 200 miles from civilization.

So this request is simple. Allow our aircraft to turn off ADS-B when outside of Rule Airspace just like we could do for Mode C in the past. The AOPA legal team is escorting this petiton through the FAA as a yes/no request with deliberate language. Our membership dollars at work. If anybody wants to read the petition I can send a link.
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Last edited by jliltd : 01-03-2020 at 05:37 AM.
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  #13  
Old 01-03-2020, 07:43 AM
johnp19 johnp19 is offline
 
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For visual flight rules (VFR) formation flights not receiving ATC services, ATC directs that only the lead aircraft should squawk the assigned beacon code(1200). All other aircraft should disable transponder and ADS-B transmissions once established within the formation.

I read this to mean that when not in contact with ATC during VFR formation flights the standing guidance is for wingmen to disable transponder and ADS-B out.


As some have already pointed out there are a number of issues with this guidance.* For example, my EFB receives*its GPS and ADS-B-in data from my ADS-B system.* Additionally*my Uavionix system is not switched.* I can only disable it by pulling the breaker. (What about those systems on a fuse that is not readily accessible?)* * If you happen to have the Uavionix Sky Beacon it is powered with the nav lights and cannot be separated.* On certified aircraft with this system the STC requires the nav lights and ADS-B to be on at all times.*

What about maneuvering formations where you go from standard to non-standard formation, I.E. Extended trail with over the top maneuvering?*


Some systems or components(mainly some encoders) have a several minute warm up*time which effectively precludes quickly turning the system back on, not to mention taking eyes off of the plane in front of you.

I could make some comments about the FAA not thinking this through before they mandated ADS-B and published the rules, which they are now changing, but it would not do much good. I am afraid that this is setting people up for unintentional violations, which now that we have ADS-B transmitting identification it makes it much easier for the FAA to do from an office while looking at ADS-B data on their computer.

V/R,

John
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  #14  
Old 01-03-2020, 08:21 AM
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rmartingt rmartingt is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnp19 View Post
I could make some comments about the FAA not thinking this through before they mandated ADS-B and published the rules,
There are a lot of things regarding ADS-B and its implementation that the FAA doesn't seem to have thought through or considered.

- Operator privacy
- Formation flight
- Aircraft with non-engine-powered electrical systems that want to use ADS-B (gliders, antiques, ultralights, etc.)
- Overall system security
- Drones/UAS
- Overall system capacity/congestion

And so on.


However, like most FAA rules (and indeed, most legislation and regulation in general) they make a set of rules expecting one outcome, and get a different outcome. Go look at the Light Sport rules and what the FAA intended vs. what it got.
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  #15  
Old 01-23-2020, 03:20 PM
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skylor skylor is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnp19 View Post
For visual flight rules (VFR) formation flights not receiving ATC services, ATC directs that only the lead aircraft should squawk the assigned beacon code(1200). All other aircraft should disable transponder and ADS-B transmissions once established within the formation.

I read this to mean that when not in contact with ATC during VFR formation flights the standing guidance is for wingmen to disable transponder and ADS-B out.


As some have already pointed out there are a number of issues with this guidance.* For example, my EFB receives*its GPS and ADS-B-in data from my ADS-B system.* Additionally*my Uavionix system is not switched.* I can only disable it by pulling the breaker. (What about those systems on a fuse that is not readily accessible?)* * If you happen to have the Uavionix Sky Beacon it is powered with the nav lights and cannot be separated.* On certified aircraft with this system the STC requires the nav lights and ADS-B to be on at all times.*

What about maneuvering formations where you go from standard to non-standard formation, I.E. Extended trail with over the top maneuvering?*


Some systems or components(mainly some encoders) have a several minute warm up*time which effectively precludes quickly turning the system back on, not to mention taking eyes off of the plane in front of you.

I could make some comments about the FAA not thinking this through before they mandated ADS-B and published the rules, which they are now changing, but it would not do much good. I am afraid that this is setting people up for unintentional violations, which now that we have ADS-B transmitting identification it makes it much easier for the FAA to do from an office while looking at ADS-B data on their computer.

V/R,

John
To add to your questions, I have some of my own:

1. When departing a controlled airport VFR, are wingman required to squawk until told otherwise? (I assume airport operations at a controlled airport constitutes "receiving ATC services".

2. When an enroute/VFR flight squawking 1200 requests flight following, are all wingmen in the flight required to turn their transponders/ADSB out on until requested to turn them back off by ATC?

3. When a VFR flight returns to a a controlled airport/airspace and lead contacts the tower, are wingmen required to turn their transponders/ADSB out back on?

I agree that it doesn't seem like the ADSB operational requirements were very well thought out and now they're making up the rules as they go along...

My take is that we aren't in violation of the regs as long as the transponders/ADSB are on so I leave it on until told otherwise (A/C's are not regulatory). Maybe if the controllers are annoyed enough by this, they'll fix the regs for good!

Skylor

Last edited by skylor : 01-29-2020 at 11:46 PM.
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  #16  
Old 01-28-2020, 06:52 PM
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n82rb n82rb is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skylor View Post
To add to your questions, I have some of my own:

1. When departing a controlled airport VFR, are wingman required to squawk until told otherwise? (I assume airport operations at a controlled airport costitutes "receiving ATC services".

2. When an enroute/VFR flight squawking 1200 requests flight following, are all wingmen in the flight required to turn their transponders/ADSB out on until requested to turn them back off by ATC?

3. When a VFR flight returns to a a controlled airport/airspace and lead contacts the tower, are wingmen required to turn their transponders/ADSB out back on?

I agree that it doesn't seem like the ADSB operational requirements were very well thought out and now they're making up the rules as they go along...

My take is that we aren't in violation of the regs as long as the transponders/ADSB are on so I leave it on until told otherwise (A/C's are not regulatory). Maybe if the controllers are annoyed enough by this, they'll fix the regs for good!

Skylor
skylor asks the big question. the ac, which he points out correctly is not regulatory tells you to violate a far: far 91.225

(2) Otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions.

it says when not VFR not using ATC services to turn it off. that is in direct violation of 91.225. which says ATC can tell you to turn it off not some AC.

im with skylor. its their mess, mine stay on until they fix it legally. will be great hearing ATC at osh tell everybody to turn it off over the already crowded radio.

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  #17  
Old 01-29-2020, 12:18 AM
PCHunt PCHunt is offline
 
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Default ATC treatment of Formation Flights

ATC has treated formation flights as a single entity for many years. Long before ADS-B, only the lead would squawk. Or in the case of longer in-trail "formations" (usually large aircraft), the lead and the last aircraft might squawk.

When a formation flight taxies out, the entire flight is cleared to taxi as one entity.

When a formation flight is cleared for takeoff, the entire formation is cleared, as if one entity. Example: A 60-ship flight of T-6 aircraft was cleared for takeoff at Oshkosh years ago. One transmission, one "entity" for ATC.

When you arrive at an airport as a flight of four, you are cleared to land as a flight, and the normal runway separation standards don't apply.

So it would seem logical that when in formation, ATC would like to treat you as a single entity. I can't imagine that they really want aircraft in close proximity squawking and "ADSB-ing". Surely it will trigger collision warnings in their system.

A little common sense goes a long way to interpreting the rules. No matter how many times rules are written and re-written, if you are pedantic enough, you can find some conflict in the rule.

Flame suit on...........
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  #18  
Old 01-29-2020, 08:01 AM
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Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
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What Pete said is what I was thinking. Annoying the controllers by having everyone turn their ADS-B on and have to be told to turn it off again is just being an *ss. The controllers have no direct control over the regs, they're just the ones who have to live with them.

You know that they'll tell you to turn it off again, so just leave it off unless you're lead.
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  #19  
Old 01-29-2020, 12:11 PM
MIKE JG MIKE JG is offline
 
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^^This....

Doesn't matter if you are talking with an ATC facility or not, their collision warning systems are still going to alert if it sees two or more aircraft in close proximity to one another. Imagine having to deal with this day in and day out.

Any time you are operating as a formation flight (FAA defines that as w/in 1NM of another aircraft on purpose) the wingmen need to disable their transponder and ADS-B signals to prevent nuisance collision warnings.

If you have followed the regs, you briefed your formation flight prior to takeoff, the lead assumes all responsibility for adherence to the FARs, that includes, VFR weather minimums and cloud clearances, equipment requirements, etc.

To ATC and the FAA you are a single entity until that time that you break up the formation. That's why when your buddy pulls up along side of you in flight unexpectedly, it's not a great idea.
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  #20  
Old 01-29-2020, 01:15 PM
OKAV8r OKAV8r is offline
 
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Default Squawk vs.??

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCHunt View Post

...I can't imagine that they really want aircraft in close proximity squawking and "ADSB-ing".
Since transponders were originally conceptualized as a "parrot" system, the term "squawk" emerged. Since ADS-B is viewed by some as a chicken s**t concept, maybe the term should be "cluck"
"N123, approach, stop squawk stop cluck"
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