RV-12 S-LSA parking at Oshkosh

Fellow VAF'ers,

The proliferation of S-LSA RV-12s has brought up an issue that needs to be addressed, which is this- whether these aircraft should be parked with the other RVs at Oshkosh. It seems like a simple question and a no-brainer (an opinion shared by people on both sides of many debates...) but it is a little more complicated then that. It's something that we (as the Oshkosh parking folks, both volunteers and EAA staff) have been discussing amongst ourselves and have yet to come to consensus. So, I thought I'd throw this out to the VAF world for discussion and a poll. Please note- this poll is not a binding referendum. OSH is not a democracy, more of a benevolent dictatorship... sort of like VAF.

To be clear from the start- we are only discussing -12s that are S-LSA (store bought, factory built airplanes.) This discussion does not concern -12s built from kits, be they registered E-LSA or E-AB. The latter are homebuilts and will always be allowed.

The basic issue is this- the various showplane parking areas (homebuilts, warbirds, vintage, ultralights) are restricted to those airplanes which meet those criteria. North 40 (and Fond du Lac/ Appleton when that fills up) is for everything else. Each area sets their own definitions and requirements as to what can park in their area. Vintage is a good example- there is a cut off year for airplanes that are old enough to park there. They are very strict about enforcing that and they need to be, because space is limited. EAA has a longstanding policy of never turning away a showplane, and one way to ensure that we don't run out of showplane space is to restrict what parks there.

Brining it back to homebuilts- every year we see a number of folks taxi up to the homebuilt area in their (172, Cherokee etc) dutifully holding a "HBC" sign. When questioned, the answer is usually some version of "my buddy has an RV-7 back there and I want to camp with him." Sorry Charlie, not gonna happen. The RV buddy is more than welcome to camp with you in the N40 if you like, but we are not going to let your spam can park with the homebuilts. This has ruffled a few feathers over the years but it's the way we do things. If we let one in, what's to stop the next few hundred from following suit, and pretty soon we are out of space and sending RVs to Fond du Lac.

About 10 years ago, when the LSA thing really took off, we saw more of this. Folks taxing up in their new (insert brand of European fiberglass Rotax microlite job here) thinking that they get to park in showplane because, well, just because. We saw the same thing with some of the early Cirrus and certified Lancair Columbias. No matter how new, expensive and pretty it is, it's no different than a 1971 Cherokee, and it parks in the N40.

Which brings us to the RV-12 S-LSAs. They have arrived on the scene in sufficient numbers that it is going to be an issue and we need to address it. No they are not homebuilts but yes they are RVs, so what do we do with them? Allow me to lay out the pros and cons as best I can.

Pros:

- RV-12s are RVs, not much different from the other RVs.
- There are not that many of them so what's the big deal?
- Many RV-12 S-LSA owners are former builders of other RV models, so they've "earned the right" so to speak.

Cons:

- They are not homebuilts, but store-bought airplanes.
- While they are small in number now, that number grows every year and will be a space issue eventually.
- If we let Van's S-LSA models in, how do we turn away other S-LSA versions from other kit manufacturers?
- It is challenging for the volunteers, in the heat of battle, to differentiate. Yes they are labeled as such, but we're not always looking at them from the correct angle to see the little "S-LSA" on the side.

So, I'm looking for some opinions on this questions- Should factory-built RV-12 S-LSA models be allowed to park in the homebuilt parking and camping areas at Oshkosh?

Poll Question

The software cropped the poll question and I can't seem to edit it. The entire poll question is this:

"Should factory-built RV-12 S-LSA models be allowed to park in the homebuilt parking and camping areas at Oshkosh?"

I'm really conflicted! I'm RV12 ELSA. One of the reasons you look at RVs is to see the different approaches, paint jobs, options, custom touches etc. So, seen one SLSA, seen them all - except for paint color.

So, on the one hand, that (and limited space) is a reason to vote for separation.

But on the other hand, freshly certified ELSA RV12s differ in only "minor" ways from each other compared to other RVs. So that is a mitigating factor, but not a strong one.

But, on the gripping hand, ELSAs get a lot of mods shortly after certification (or snuck through before) which SLSAs will never have. So there is always something to see in a group of ELSA RV12s that one has not seen before.

So I reluctantly voted with the majority.

Seems like

Seems like I'm in the minority here but to me an RV-12 is an RV-12 - no matter who built it. Isn't it all about camaraderie? It is likely that a few of the 12's that are ELSA were built for the owners by 'hired hands' and they still get to park in the HB area. I wonder what % of the RVs that show up at any airshow were built by their owners seeing as how many are purchased from the person who built them. If you all separate the 12s, what have you accomplished?

Too simple - let the 12s park in the HB area. Why separate them? Just puts a lot of 12 owners out in the factory area - why?

Is a Cub a Cub? Where do new SLSA Carbon Cubs park? Where do true antique/classic age Cubs park? Where do WagAero (etc) homebuilt 'Cubs' park?

I haven't been to 'Airventure' in almost a decade, but the last time I was there, a friend who flew in in a new-production Waco biplane was parked in antique/classic, without question. Should he have been there? All he did was write a check for a new airplane a year or two earlier.

Charlie

There will be MANY RV's parked in the homebuilt area that were built by professionals and not the person flying them in. The S-LSA is no different in my mind. Let them all park together.

airplane get-together or birthday celebration, whatever you decide will be okay...its your party...you get to invite whomever you wish. there will always be those that feel left out and those that feel others should have been. no way to pick a "right" answer.

there is so much more to OSH than who you get to sit next to.

An S-LSA is not a homebuilt, by definition. Why, then, should it be parked in homebuilt parking or homebuilt camping?

Question!!

I haven't researched it that much but can you tell a factory built from a kit? Is there a marking, emblem etc....?

To me it is an RV12. The kit came from Van's. Somebody else just built it. I believe this needs to be a little flexible. People come from all over to see specific models and it really isn't fair if they aren't grouped.

Regarding other factory built SLA's, if they were a kit with an option, I also don't see the concern.

I guess it could be looked at as RV parking as opposed to Homebuilt parking. Probably 99% of the planes in that area are RV's anyway.

I say let'm in!!!

The most obvious thing is the "LIGHT-SPORT" placard as opposed to the "EXPERIMENTAL" placard. And the fact that the S-LSA must have 12" numbers.
Of course an amateur-built or E-LSA may also have 12" numbers.

S-LSA's are factory built, so they don't meet the basic criterion stipulated for HBC by the Osh organisers. End of story. E-LSA's, modified or not, `professionally' built or not, are still `homebuilt' from kits and are not S-LSA's. It may be hard for the volunteers to pick the difference in some cases, but the entry rule seems simple enough.

Isn't the easiest way to just make the HBC area bigger? If less are parked in spam can areas, there should be more room for the Homebuilt areas.

All RV's start out as a kit. Vans sends them out to be built - for Vans to sell. They are not built in the Vans factory. Im having a hard time figuring out the difference between them and RV-12 built by one person and sold to another.

rockwoodrv9 said:

All RV's start out as a kit. Vans sends them out to be built - for Vans to sell. They are not built in the Vans factory. Im having a hard time figuring out the difference between them and RV-12 built by one person and sold to another.

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True, the S-LSA 12's are not assembled in Van's factory, but the work is done under Van's supervision and in that sense they are factory built. The question was "Should factory-built RV-12 S-LSA models be allowed to park in the homebuilt parking and camping areas at Oshkosh?" Well, if it's an S-LSA then by definition it's not a homebuilt, so it seems to me that the simple answer has to be 'no', irrespective of the fact that it would be nice to see a large gathering of -12's in the same area.

There are people on this forum that build planes for others to buy. Can they park in the HBC area? If Vans did not build it - it is not a factory built plane.
Maybe only builders who built the plane they are flying should be able to park there. No second owners, no quickbuilds. Maybe just plans built planes should qualify.

The idea of AV is to increase general aviation participation and offer a place of like minded people to associate and learn from each other. What is gained by excluding people. Are you helping the RV community or just your own ego?

You know, a lot of things that MIGHT become problems never actually DO become problems... They run off the road long before that. So - what - 15 or so SLSAs exist? Big deal. Ignore it. So another 100 MIGHT get built? Well, think they will all come to OSH? Not likely.

Let's solve problems that actually exist...

rockwoodrv9 said:

Are you helping the RV community or just your own ego?

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The OP posed a question to the RV community to comment and vote on. All I've done is try to explain my reasoning. Nothing to do with ego, and certainly not trying to offend you or sabotage the RV community. Feel free to disagree. There are pro's and cons both ways as the OP pointed out.

rgmwa,
Sorry for the way my post sounded. After seeing your post and re-reading mine, it read different than I intended.

There is a certain amount of "swagger" we all get from being able to tell people we built our plane. Holy c rap, it is a big deal!! I was thinking of what is better for the RV 12 and all of the RV planes. I believe including all of them will help way more than excluding the few who paid for planes that Vans had built to sell for a profit. I still think just make the area bigger and eliminate the problem.

No apology needed, rockwood. As an RV-12 builder I'd love to see a big gaggle of -12's at Oshkosh (per live-cam in my case unfortunately), but I guess it will be up to the guys who run the show.

I shouldn't comment since I don't have an RV, but I'm a member and I think it would be cool if the 12's could park in either space at pilot's discretion.

There can't be THAT many of them right??

I mean, we're flying our 1964 C-180 up there for the first time this year, and if I wanted to stoop so low as to grace the North forty with my presence say to park next to Honeck and bug him, they can't MAKE me park in VAC can they?

Good points by everyone on both sides, keep them coming. It pretty much mirrors the debate we've been having within our own ranks, both the volunteers and EAA staff.

rockwoodrv9 said:

Isn't the easiest way to just make the HBC area bigger?

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That's the entire point- space is finite and we can't just make it bigger. Over the last 5 years, we've gradually expanded to the north and northwest, across the taxiway into what used to be the red auto parking lot. We can't go much further than that without displacing Warbirds from their space, and that is highly unlikely to be approved. You may recall that in 2009 we literally, for the 1st time ever, ran out of space in homebuilt and had to send a few dozen RVs down to the far, far south end of the field to park. We've expanded the parking area since then, but the fleet has also grown and we see roughly 5% growth a year in parking numbers. Even with the expanded space we have, we're maybe 5 years from saturating the current space. Then what? I put in a request a few years ago to purchase 500 "Aero-Lift" airplane hoists to plant in the parking areas. Still waiting to hear back on that...

rockwoodrv9 said:

There are people on this forum that build planes for others to buy. Can they park in the HBC area?

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If I had my way they would not, but that's a rant for another thread. There is no practical way to police "hired guns" for this purpose; not so with S-LSA.

From one "Moose" to another

Jeff,
This truly is an interesting question, and no obvious "right" answer, either.

Should you ultimately decide to keep them separate, I think Mel has given you the means of quickly identifying the S-LSA versions...the 12" N-numbers. Since the S-LSA 12's are required to have 12" numbers, 12's with small N-numbers are assumed to be E-LSA and get directed to HBC. A 12 that comes up to you with 12" numbers gets a closer look for the S-LSA sticker.

Michael White said:

Jeff,
This truly is an interesting question, and no obvious "right" answer, either.

A 12 that comes up to you with 12" numbers gets a closer look for the S-LSA sticker.

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Wouldn't that be rather awkward and slow the conga line down considerably?

It's not just S-LSA RV-12s we're talking about here. There are also plenty of S-LSA Jabirus, Rans, Carbon Cubs, and others with kit-built versions. To be fair, when you let S-LSA RV-12s park in HBC, you'd have to let all 125 S-LSA Jabirus and all 200+ Carbon Cubs and who knows how many Rans S-7s and S-19s in there too. Yep, it might fill up pretty fast! I think it might be time for an S-LSA campground.

slsa vs elsa

rleffler said:

Wouldn't that be rather awkward and slow the conga line down considerably?

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Back when I used to go to OSH, they had the same issue with classic vs regular GA (age). Supposedly, they had someone with a radio, on a computer, checking registration numbers & saying 'no' to too-new planes, 'on the fly'.

It Comes down to the basic definition.

I say no to parking any Factory built airplane in the HBP or HBC areas. SLSA means Factory built. EAA is based on the home built tradition. I believe in the basic definition of the home built Parking area. If it not a EAB or ELSA then sorry! I spent a lot of my personal time building my ESLA RV12. I go to OSH every year and have won the right to park up closer to all the action and don't want a factory built airplane in my spot. As far as having a professional builder build the plane for a customer then that is a loop hole in the system at least it helps further the Experimental industry. The Poll speaks for itself. I wonder what Paul Poberezny would say?

New LSA Camping Area Needed

KatieB said:

... I think it might be time for an S-LSA campground.

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I had the same thoughts as KatieB when I read this thread for the first time last night. My suggestion is to have a designated area in the North 40 for LSA's. They wouldn't even have to be S-LSA's to park there. There are already designated areas in the North 40 campground for Bonanzas and Cessnas. Maybe Mooneys, too, I'm not sure. For the S-LSA pilots who get their feelings hurt because they can't camp in the HBC area, they could be sent to the LSA camping area, even if it's in the North 40.

I'm not convinced there is a growing number of PILOTS who camp at AirVenture. Aren't EAA and AOPA telling us the pilot population is shrinking? And aren't the attendance numbers for AirVenture shrinking? I tend to believe there is a RE-DISTRIBUTION of the types of airplanes whose pilots camp somewhere at AirVenture. I think in future years we'll see a growing number of LSA's and fewer aircraft of other types, resulting in the same number of pilots or even fewer pilots in total, camping at AirVenture. That's just my opinion.

So my suggestion is not to expand any existing campgrounds, just re-designate an existing camping area for LSA's. I realize this is out of the realm of Jeff's original post, but I submit it in the hope that he can pass it on to those who do make decisions regarding the overall parking distribution at future Airventures.

P.S. Just because you fly a homebuilt, you shouldn't feel you are restricted to HomeBuilt Camping (HBC). There are a lot of RV pilots that camp in the North 40.

rleffler said:

Wouldn't that be rather awkward and slow the conga line down considerably?

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Bob,
It's like I said...there's no "right" answer, which is why I won't be trading day jobs with Jeff any time soon.

I don't think it would slow things down much...a second or two at the most, once you know what to look for and where. The progression would be:
RV-12...12" N-number...S-LSA sticker on the vertical tail (below the RV-12 logo)...go to S-LSA area. No S-LSA sticker...got to HBC.

Once you got in the flow, it would take less time to do it in the field than it took you to read it here.

Maybe a better solution is to send ALL the RV-12's (S-LSA and E-LSA alike) to the LSA area because they're ALL Light Sport? You can't please all the people all the time, so why try? (Said in jest, people...)

I'll admit that I did not know about the 12" number requirement for S-LSA. That does make it somewhat easier to sort them out and shifts the pro/con balance ever so slightly. We know it may be possible, whether it's the right thing to do is still open to debate.

An update/ more data: I learned via Vans that there are 35 S-LSA 12s in the wild. If half of them show up (unlikely) it's not enough to put us out of business, but someday soon it will be. Do we wait until then, or establish the rules now? And as Katie pointed out, this is bigger than just the 12s.

Strongly, strongly disagree with separation of "LSAs" in general and putting them all together!!

Strongly!

Bill_H said:

Strongly, strongly disagree with separation of "LSAs" in general and putting them all together!!

Strongly!

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Ditto.

I built my RV-12 exactly the same way as my previous builds. The fact that it's a LSA has no bearing on anything.

I can see the argument for pulling the S-LSAs out given the number of other models from other kits that Katie sited. I didn't think of all those.

Bill_H said:

Strongly, strongly disagree with separation of "LSAs" in general and putting them all together!!

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f1rocket said:

The fact that it's a LSA has no bearing on anything.

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I sense this discussion wandering off into the weeds a bit. Just to refocus it and clarify from the OP- this discussion does not pertain in any way to E-LSA versions. If you built it from a kit it's in, whether registered as E-LSA or E-AB. We are only talking about S-LSA, store bought, factory built, turnkey flying airplanes.

Question for Bill (since you brought it up): What would you have us do with the LSAs that is different from what we are doing now? Keep in mind we are talking at least several hundred (and growing yearly) between the RV-12s, Jabirus, Rans models, Flight Designs, etc etc.

I was responding to RV7BOY's suggestion for a separate all - LSA area. You have to ask him!

Bill_H said:

I was responding to RV7BOY's suggestion for a separate all - LSA area. You have to ask him!

Click to expand...

Read my previous post. My answer is there. By the way, don't read more into my post than is there. I never said all LSAs should be grouped together. E-LSAs and EABs could still camp in HBC.

SLSA need there own area

I agree the the majority - if it is an ELSA or EAB it falls into the spirit of the HB area by the EAB. The issue is opening the door for other planes that are not experimental HB.

Earlier Jeff mentioned the word "Showplane" and I think that's important. The designated Showplane camping and parking areas are intended to group airplanes together that are eligible for the same categories of judging. Homebuilts, Vintage, Warbirds, and Ultralights have their spots, and the rest go to North 40 and overflow. (This is why only Vintage airplanes of a certain age are allowed in the Vintage area-- it's not because they're snobs.) The judges aren't going to fly to Fond du Lac to find an airplane that needs to be judged. Obviously, the camping areas have evolved to become more of a social thing over the years, but the structure isn't about any airplane or type of pilot being more deserving than another one. S-LSAs are factory built and are not eligible for judging, so by default they've always gone to North 40 and overflow. Now if you guys want to start a designated RV parking area, tha'd be a whole different story.

KatieB said:

Earlier Jeff mentioned the word "Showplane" and I think that's important. The designated Showplane camping and parking areas are intended to group airplanes together that are eligible for the same categories of judging. Homebuilts, Vintage, Warbirds, and Ultralights have their spots, and the rest go to North 40 and overflow. (This is why only Vintage airplanes of a certain age are allowed in the Vintage area-- it's not because they're snobs.) The judges aren't going to fly to Fond du Lac to find an airplane that needs to be judged. Obviously, the camping areas have evolved to become more of a social thing over the years, but the structure isn't about any airplane or type of pilot being more deserving than another one. S-LSAs are factory built and are not eligible for judging, so by default they've always gone to North 40 and overflow. Now if you guys want to start a designated RV parking area, tha'd be a whole different story.

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Well said.......

Bob

Final answer

After considerable discussion among the volunteers and EAA staff, and after gathering information from the RV community via this thread, we have made the decision. S-LSA RV-12s and other S-LSA aircraft will NOT be allowed to park in the homebuilt parking and camping areas. They will be directed to the North 40 general aviation parking and camping areas.

I realize this will not sit well with everyone, but if this poll is an accurate indication, most in the RV community will agree with the policy. I wanted to get this out there far enough in advance for those coming to Oshkosh to plan accordingly. If you are flying in with a S-LSA, your sign should indicate GAC or GAP. If you try to sneak in with a HBP or HBC sign you will be turned away and redirected to the North 40.

For those are parked in the North 40, there is easy, little-or-no-walking access to the RV area in homebuilt via the North 40 shuttle bus and the Red Tram route. See the map on the Airventure.com website for more details:

http://www.eaa.org/~/media/Files/AirVenture/AV14_VisitorsMap.pdf

Look forward to seeing everyone in a week or so.

Great Job Jeff!

Last thread bump before Oshkosh. Fly safe and READ THE NOTAM!!!

N40

Factory built LSAs should be in N40.

Now, how do you quickly and easily tell if its really a factory built and not a homebuilt while marshaling aircraft to parking?

So did this actually happen?