I am so bad at this

So yesterday I messed up big and had to order a HS front spar and two ribs. Today, I figured I'd attempt to rivet the right side HS structure and I messed up the very first rivet I attempted. I split the manufactured head of the AN470 so bad it didn't even look like a rivet. Luckily I manage to get it out with no damage to the holes, but I'm starting to wonder if this is possible. I have a great adviser who has shown me a great deal and I feel I've learned a lot, but the results just aren't there. Please tell me this gets easier as you go and this is completely normal before aluminum parts start flying at my garage wall.

Take a deep breath man! go find you some practice material and play with it for awhile. you are learning new skills and some get it faster than other. you can get there

ways to make it easier

I have a terrible time controlling both the gun and the bucking bar (lost my helper) I have to clamp a block of wood to the part and use this wood to hold my bucking bar against so that i don't vibrate off the rivet (if room permits) the wood has a slot cut into it so that the bucking bar is held on three sides and i only have one direction to worry about. Also watch the pressure you use on the gun.

Practice and Concentration

Several threads on riveting, but like said, "practice". For me, concentrating more on the gun and less on the bucking bar made a big difference. Find what works for you and yes, it gets better/easier. Then you quit for a while and then you get to re-learn everything. Repeat as necessary......

Tom, if you have the type of rivet gun with a trigger that meters the air, I would practice squeezing the trigger very slowly until it just begins to tap the rivet, very slowly and lightly. As this happens, you get some feedback as to the position and feel of your bucking bar--and if everything feels right, gradually increase pressure on the trigger until the tapping gets stronger and faster. If everything feels right, give it a full head of steam for a second or two. Back off and check out the result. Tip: Do not let off pressure on the rivet with the set & bucking bar until you are sure the gun has stopped firing. After you practice this for a while you will be amazed at how easy the whole process becomes. Practice on some scrap first, for sure!

read, watch, practice

I'm still very early in the whole thing here, but feel "reasonably" comfortable. I did a workshop like the Sportair's in the US. Came away with a LOT of new knowledge and experience. Can't advise that more strongly, if you have access. Alternatively, as others have said, get someone to show you. Also, spend time here researching and reading - one of the best resources around. If a picture tells a thousand words, moving pictures might tell a million. Take a look at the big range of EAA video clips available. No doubt even if you don't find exactly the right thing for this particular problem (and I'm sure the answer is there), you could spend a few whole days watching their stuff and learning new techniques and ideas you will use in the future. Also, check youtube for available clips. I just did a search for "riveting 101" and came up with one that might help. Covers much more than technique, gives some good background info on solid rivets (sizing etc). Take a look at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hB3rIECtxM
Lastly, as someone already said, get some scrap, and a bunch of rivets and practice ... and practice ... and practice. I did what I was told once and drove 20 rivets every day for a whole week before I even let one rivet get a glance of my empennage pieces, and I haven't had to drill one out yet. I'm sure I will, its bound to happen. Take it slow. With the practice, practice not only technigue in terms of holding and griping the pieces and tools, but also factors like air pressure. Also, I'd suggest (and have done the same myself - on the Toolbox practice project), looking at alternative techniques such as using a hand held rivet squeezer (recommend the Cleaveland MainSqueeze if you haven't already got one). Maybe a more hand-held manual technique will let you get going and build up confidence. Another idea - where you can, use a back-riveting plate and rivet that way instead of using a bucking bar - probably lets you eliminate one factor in the whole thing allowing you to focus and concentrate more on holding the rivet gun firmly, straight on to the work etc etc.

Hope that helps.

Clarkie said:

Please tell me this gets easier as you go and this is completely normal before aluminum parts start flying at my garage wall.

Click to expand...

It does get easier. I had to reorder the very first part I ever drilled and I am sure it was just the first reorder.

I agree with the others that have said about practice. Anytime I do something for the first time I take some scrap(if you have to go buy scrap is it really scrap?) and replicate, as closely as I can, what I am going to be doing on the real parts. Sometimes it's tedious and an exercise in the obvious, sometimes you end up shooting the flush mushroom head across the garage because 90PSI is way too much pressure, and you are just glad it missed the aluminum that you don't want to be scrap.



Don't get too discouraged, you will get the hang of it!

I am not sure how VAN's teaches or talks about riveting but the most common mistake I see is way too much air pressure to the rivet gun trying to use the "regulator" at the gun. Most regulators at the gun are not regulators but rather adjustable bleed orifices. A good rule of thumb is to use 30 PSI regulated pressure at the compressor for a number 3 rivet using a 3X rivet gun and 40 PSI regulated for a 4 rivet with the 3X gun. If you are using a 2X gun you will need to up the regulated pressure 5 or 8 PSI. The regulator at the compressor should be a good regulator that you can set a pressure and it will hold the pressure...such as one you use with a paint spray. Give this a try.
Dave62 (Swift driver)

Never had a problem

I do have an adjustable regulator screwed into the air input port. I adjust it and run it against the work bench surface to make sure it has the right "feel" before I start driving rivets in the structure. It sounds like you have an air source and a rivet gun and it is not finely adjustable at the gun. BANG - BANG all on or all off you are at its mercy - not good.

Bob Axsom

One other thing that helped me was using a 3x gun. I can't remember where the recommendation came from, but I bought a 2x and was not very good with it. My mentor had a 3x and when I used it my riveting quality improved. Same with the bucking bar. Mass helps steady things. You could also experiment with different ways of bracing your hand holding the bucking bar. Just holding your arm and hand out in space with the bar on the rivet is tough. Look for ways to brace your hand or at least your elbow. Also look for a way to keep the gun close to your body, for the same reasons...holding it at a distance from your body makes it harder to control. 3x gun and a tungsten bucking bar may make things easier for you. This may also sound silly, but make sure you use good hearing protection. Not just to protect your hearing, but you may be flinching without it

All Best

Jeremy Constant

Tom---it does get easier. I figured before I messed up my own kit, I'd help others with theirs. We have some really great guys at Ridgeland, that not only let me hang out, but I actually learned airframes. Plumbing this stuff is easy for me, but learning the art of riviting was a nightmare for me. I dont know why. But, after helping with several RV projects ( fuel tanks now), I feel that I can tackle my own project.
There has to be an RV guy somewhere near Huntersville that can lend some guidance for Tom. We want his plane to fly with him in it, not the parts flying against his garage wall.
Call Jay Pratt. Call Walt Aronow. Call Rick Gray. Call most anyone on this forum. The best teachers around are on here. I'm sure they will be glad to answer questions. They helped me---
Try it ---you'll like it!
Tom

Wow, there is lots of great advice here. Any chance you can go to a week-long course where you and an instructor build your empennage? I did (Synergy Air in Oregon) and it was fantastic. You definitely learn all the mechanical tasks, including the several ways to rivet, and your emps are done in 1 week.

I'll second or third the comments about practicing on scrap. While practicing, try different pressures and see which one works best for you (it will differ between the -3 and -4 rivets). Use a good rivet gun like Sioux or similar. Use the heaviest and biggest bucking bar that will fit your work...often this means not using the smaller tungsten bar that many of us like, but may not be appropriate for the particular task.

Good luck!

Lot's of good ideas here. I will throw in my two cents.

1. Use lower pressure, experiment with 30-40 psi
2. Purchase a 2X gun for the -3 rivets, it is a lot easier to control.
3. Order the large beginner head with the rubber around the perimeter (Avery)
4. Get a friend to work with you on some practice pieces.
5. Don't even think about driving any rivets in spars until you have mastered the practice pieces. Purchase an assortment of rivets and drive a hundred of the 426's and 470's. When you think you have the knack, move on, but start with less difficult pieces.

You will get good at it, trust me, the more you drive them the better you get. When you don't feel comfortable putting a piece together by yourself, call on your helper...

One other thing that I havent seen here yet is ...

One other thing that I havent seen here yet is push the rivet set hard against the manufactured head of the rivet then press the bucking bar hard against the tail of the rivet (perpendicular in both cases) then squeeze the trigger (if you drive some in scrap before each rivet session and count you will soon find out how long it takes to get a good job) then release the trigger WITHOUT LETTING UP ON THE GUN OR BUCKING BAR PRESSURE UNTIL AFTER IT COMES TO A COMPLETE STOP. You do not have to get it all the way home on the first shot, load up the manual pressure on the gun and bucking bar and give it a few more taps WITHOUT LETTING UP ON THE GUN OR BUCKING BAR PRESSURE UNTIL AFTER IT COMES TO A COMPLETE STOP.

Bob Axsom

Just another $.02

I never did get to where I was comfortable using gun / bar without a helper. It always felt like I was one hand short. If the rivet was a '470 and easy open access, I probably did a few by myself, but overall, not many. In any event, as others have mentioned, no substitute for practice.

Also, I found that, for me, rivet squeezers were much preferred to the gun / bar where they can be used. For me, the hand squeezer seemed to work best, but there were many times where I was happy to have the pneumatic. I recall using both of the squeezers a lot in the empennage.

After you get good at the practice rivets - you might use those to practice drilling them out - it's going to happen.

Dan

??go find you some practice material??

??get some scrap??

??take some scrap(if you have to go buy scrap is it really scrap?)? [FONT=&quot]

??practicing on scrap??

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]I used to wonder where all this "scrap" people talked about came from. I no longer wonder about this. There is plenty of "scrap" available for me to practice on in "the aircraft factory".

My wife and I have an agreement in place which goes something like this: When I bend, fold, spindle or mutilate a part, she gets to spend the cost of replacement on clothes, shoes and accessories. I guess you could say this is a motivator for me to do better.

You'll get better, too...with practice.

[/FONT]

Pressure

It's been mentioned before but worth mentioning again.
Set your rivetting pressure on the edge of a table you don't care about denting! Lower the pressure until you can control the riet gun and it doesn't make 30 dents all over your table leg or scrap wood whatever. Should be able to make one nice dent. Adjust from there. There's a you tube video that shows this and I found it real helpful. Did the same thing you did on that HS Skeleton.
Best part about practicing on scrap is that you get to practive removing rivets too...

Bob Axsom said:

One other thing that I havent seen here yet is push the rivet set hard against the manufactured head of the rivet then press the bucking bar hard against the tail of the rivet (perpendicular in both cases) then squeeze the trigger (if you drive some in scrap before each rivet session and count you will soon find out how long it takes to get a good job) then release the trigger WITHOUT LETTING UP ON THE GUN OR BUCKING BAR PRESSURE UNTIL AFTER IT COMES TO A COMPLETE STOP. You do not have to get it all the way home on the first shot, load up the manual pressure on the gun and bucking bar and give it a few more taps WITHOUT LETTING UP ON THE GUN OR BUCKING BAR PRESSURE UNTIL AFTER IT COMES TO A COMPLETE STOP.

Bob Axsom

Click to expand...

This is the best advice I've seen yet.

Riveting is easy...

You do have to learn the skill though.

Firstly, congratulations for manning up and actually asking the group for help. I'm sure everyone would like to drop around for an evening and help you work it out.

One thing that I didn't learn till very late in the build process was how to work smart. If I had done so I would have halved my build time. The first lesson here is that you need to learn to rivet - simple as that.

You can either stumble around and figure it out yourself over the next 6 months, and still be slow and inefficient, or find someone to teach you properly.

Learning to rivet is not like learning the violin - there are about 4-5 different skills that come into play and it takes probably an evening to appreciate them, and a week of practice with a skilled operator to refine them.

Just consider, if you took yourself off to one of the build workshops mentioned previously you would probably have your empennage completed within the month. And into the bargain you will acquire the work skills and confidence necessary to carry you through the project.

Now I do appreciate circumstances may not permit attending a workshop - yep that was my excuse but there are other options. Hunt down other builders nearby and spend a few evenings, a beer or three and have them teach you.

So take the bull by the horns and adjust your approach to building this fine airplane.

You're going to love that airplane.

Dave62 said:

I am not sure how VAN's teaches or talks about riveting but the most common mistake I see is way too much air pressure to the rivet gun trying to use the "regulator" at the gun. Most regulators at the gun are not regulators but rather adjustable bleed orifices. A good rule of thumb is to use 30 PSI regulated pressure at the compressor for a number 3 rivet using a 3X rivet gun and 40 PSI regulated for a 4 rivet with the 3X gun. If you are using a 2X gun you will need to up the regulated pressure 5 or 8 PSI. The regulator at the compressor should be a good regulator that you can set a pressure and it will hold the pressure...such as one you use with a paint spray. Give this a try.
Dave62 (Swift driver)

Click to expand...

I have a 2X gun and this is accurate information. I started with 35 pounds for flush rivets and 45 pounds for universal head rivets. On ones with long shanks, you are going to have to up the pressure. no more than 45 on flush and I have used as much as 65 on universal that had really long shanks.

Buggsy2 said:

Wow, there is lots of great advice here. Any chance you can go to a week-long course where you and an instructor build your empennage? I did (Synergy Air in Oregon) and it was fantastic. You definitely learn all the mechanical tasks, including the several ways to rivet, and your emps are done in 1 week.

I'll second or third the comments about practicing on scrap. While practicing, try different pressures and see which one works best for you (it will differ between the -3 and -4 rivets). Use a good rivet gun like Sioux or similar. Use the heaviest and biggest bucking bar that will fit your work...often this means not using the smaller tungsten bar that many of us like, but may not be appropriate for the particular task.

Good luck!

Click to expand...

The time (and money) my wife and I spent at Synergy Air learning the basics was probably the best investment we made on the project. There used to be an outfit in Georgia that offered a similar course, but I have not seen anything about them for quite a while. The EAA courses are another option, and I am sure there are others around the country.
Practice, practice, practice.

md9680 said:

My wife and I have an agreement in place which goes something like this: When I bend, fold, spindle or mutilate a part, she gets to spend the cost of replacement on clothes, shoes and accessories. I guess you could say this is a motivator for me to do better.

Click to expand...

Good lord! You're gonna want to double the hull insurance if you didn't stipulate this is only for during the building process.




.

Doesn't get easier, but the learning curve will go away, and it will seem like second nature

I used to cringe when the instructions used the bad word, "Fabricate." by the end of the build, it was just another task.

More pressure applied by hand with rivet gun than bucking bar. Bucking bar does the work.

When possible, use the mirrored reflection of the shiny aluminum as a guide to being perpidicular to the part with the gun. See if the real rivet set and its mirrored image makes a straight line.

Proper pressure from the compressor is key. Not enough pressure can also cause you to be on the rivet too long and chances of damage goes up.

Get some of these for 470 rivets: http://www.averytools.com/departments.asp?dept=23
These little plastic caps really help to square the set on the 470 head. Made a real difference for me.

Make sure the parts being riveted are secure. If you are trying to hold a gun, bucking bar, and the parts stable at the same time, you are asking for trouble.

As others have said, you'll get it.

Good luck.

Don't be too hard on yourself

When I started on almost the 1st day I was sending off an enquiry to Van's with a photograph asking whether or not I needed to scrap a part because I managed to dimple a hole in a place where there should not have been a hole! (Don?t ask how!) Gus explained how to fabricate a doubler and that the part was fine!

You become more confident in your skills as you progress, and it won't be the only mistake you make, after all we are all human.

Cheers

Jim