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  #21  
Old 10-19-2018, 03:17 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Livermore, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer View Post

So on to RVs. First disclaimer - ...., and it's easier to fly a precise approach by hand than with an autopilot.
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Ed, I agree with most of what your wrote. However, for initial instrument students (the OP), I do think being unstabilized in the last 800 vertical feet makes life harder for them. Me too - I like to be in final configuration by 1000' agl if possible (for low wx approaches). But I do disagree with the above quote. Simply because my autopilot coupled approaches border on perfect. That's just a reflection on today's equipment, not me. I have a Trio Pro with auto trim usually driven by the GRT HX's commands, but I imagine other autopilots are equally good these days. I cannot hand fly as well as these boxes do. (If I use the FD (sort of cheating) I can come close.). There's little hunting for airspeed. Increase the throttle, it goes faster but quickly stabilizes, and vice versa. It's kind of embarrassing how good these boxes are, compared to me. BTW, I haven't noticed any issues on selecting missed approach. But the -10 has a lot of power, so quickly accelerates (if needed) and climbs. Assuming I haven't fallen asleep and forgotten to add throttle.
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  #22  
Old 10-19-2018, 04:46 PM
Latech15 Latech15 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: louisiana
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I have had my Rv-6 for three months. My instrument ticket for about 6 and I got it in a pa-28 so a few of these comments are really resonating with me. I plan on doing some more practicing this weekend so Id like to clarify a few things. Do those of you who are flying the approach at 100 with no flaps, you are simulating breaking out of the clouds at 500 or so and just leveling off to reduce speed and then throwing the flaps in and descending at that point ? I will agree that I like the way the plane handles at 100 way better than 85-90, I have just had tomrouble staying that slow and on glide slope. If you are disregarding the glide slope at 500 or so then that is something worth trying.
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  #23  
Old 10-19-2018, 06:57 PM
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Ed_Wischmeyer Ed_Wischmeyer is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Savannah, GA
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Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
Simply because my autopilot coupled approaches border on perfect. That's just a reflection on today's equipment, not me.
I should have been more specific, and you caught me! :-) In calm air, all is fine and as it should be. But, toss in some thermals and downdrafts and things change drastically -- instead of having a feel in your hand for what pitch corrections are required, the autopilot does all that and all you've got is the airspeed indicator. And with no cues, all you can do is chase the airspeed like a pre-solo student.

Also, on the last 800 feet, if you're decelerating, it's pretty easy to follow glideslope with the elevator and watch the speed bleed off.

Your mileage may vary, and that's okay! Thanks for your post.

Ed
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  #24  
Old 10-19-2018, 07:06 PM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Latech15 View Post
I have had my Rv-6 for three months. My instrument ticket for about 6 and I got it in a pa-28 so a few of these comments are really resonating with me. I plan on doing some more practicing this weekend so I’d like to clarify a few things. Do those of you who are flying the approach at 100 with no flaps, you are simulating breaking out of the clouds at 500 or so and just leveling off to reduce speed and then throwing the flaps in and descending at that point ? I will agree that I like the way the plane handles at 100 way better than 85-90, I have just had tomrouble staying that slow and on glide slope. If you are disregarding the glide slope at 500 or so then that is something worth trying.
Once I break out of the clouds, I no longer follow the GS (assuming I have good visual contact with the runway). If I am doing 90+ knots, I will usually level off for a bit to slow down and add more flaps. This better suits my normal landing profile, which is steeper than 3*. I find that the 6 doesn't want to easily loose speed down hill greater than 90+. Once down to 75 or 80 it seems far more willing to give up airspeed in a 500 FPM descent.

With an ILS to minimums, I slow down a bit on the GS and don't do anything while visual. Just too much effort finding the runway in those conditions. I don't seem to have any problems flying the approach at 85 knots. I still usually have time to get more flaps in and slow down, but know that I will be ok if hot and no flaps, assuming an appropriately sized runway, of course. Breaking out a minimums with low vis seems to require much more mental effort and theefore not as comfortable doing the things I do in good visual conditions with 500' However, in my approach prep, I would have confirmed that the runway length was enough to handle 90 knots and 10* of flaps. We have some nasty cross winds (rotors mostly - so windsock fully extended one second, limp the next) at my home airport, so I have a good idea what I need when carrying an extra 10-15 knots over the fence.

Larry
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Last edited by lr172 : 10-20-2018 at 11:03 AM.
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  #25  
Old 10-20-2018, 02:44 AM
penguin penguin is offline
 
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Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
If you break out at 500 agl you can safely do just about anything. Here in the US ILS or LPV minimums are typically 200 and 1/2 mile vis. Breaking out at 200 at 120 knots, with a fixed pitch prop, just wont work unless you have a 10,000 runway.
Most places have 200' limit on precision approaches There's always more than one way to do most things!

For my skills and my airplane I don't plan to go anywhere that is forecasting below 500', and I prefer 800. If the actual is below 500 I still use 110kt, shut the throttle when I see the runway and land. If I can't slow down I'm off to the alternate. I rarely fly ILS for real as most places I want to go don't have one. I've only flown LPVs in the US.

There are 2 issues, what is the best way to fly the approach in your airplane, and what can your airplane/equipment handle. In my airplane approaching at 110kt is best, once I see the runway, or the lights, I shut the throttle, keep descending and slow to 70kt, taking flap at 80kt and use power to land where I want. I had 8 years vfr flying in my 6 before I started flying approaches. It took me a while to learn to fly my 6 (what I considered to be) well, not sure how this approach technique would work shortly after I got the airplane.

The other issue is the accuracy of your equipment. ILS can be checked out on the ground, altimeters can't. The check carried out for an IFR cert doesn't check the airborne accuracy of your altimeter. The in flight accuracy is very dependent on your static system, including placement of your static ports (a topic that has been debated here often). My static system isn't bad, but I wouldn't descend to 200', even into a 10000 ft runway. I haven't done the work to figure out what my static error is at approach speed. So I use 500ft as my approach limit as that makes sure I have sufficient margin for altitude errors, means I have no problems slowing down and just makes my life easier. In reality if the clouds are below 1000 the needs to be a pressing reason to go to that airport.
Pete
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  #26  
Old 10-20-2018, 07:53 PM
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airguy airguy is offline
 
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Originally Posted by krw5927 View Post
In my fixed pitch 9A, I find I have trouble descending and slowing at the same time. The plane will do one or the other at a given moment, but not both. I'm currently exploring other methods for instrument approaches, but the one I've used the most is to set up full flaps and 70-75 kts prior to the FAF, and maintaining that configuration to minimums.

The 9A has a flaps deployment airspeed around 80 kts for anything over 10 degrees, so there's a fine line between enough drag to land after breaking out at minimums, and carrying all the drag you have throughout the whole descent. If you arrive at minimums with more than 80 kts IAS, the 9A seems to require a really long runway.

Very interested to see what other RV9 drivers do. I do agree with the OP's CFII that configuration changes inside of the FAF are best avoided if possible.
With a FP prop, I would agree with you. I have a C/S installed and the ability to deploy airbrakes below 10" of manifold pressure is really nice.
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