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Request panel layout review

dbaflyer

dbaflyer

Well Known Member
I'm getting ready to move forward getting my panel built and would like to get some feedback on what I have. I am a VFR pilot who would like to pursue an IFR rating once my plane is complete.

This is a G3X Touch panel with GMA240, GTN650 (plumb now and add later as $$ come available), GMC305 Autopilot controller, Dynon D6 with backup battery. IBBS Backup battery for GDU 460/GAD 29/GEA 24/GSU 25 , heated pitot, GDL39R, Dual access auto-pilot, GTX-23 ES Transponder, GTR20.

One magneto and 1 EFII electronic ignition.

Screen%20Shot%202015-05-10%20at%208.45.08%20PM_zpswo9tq1f7.png


Left lower panel:

PanelLeftSide_zps7nxlcm8j.png



Right lower panel:

PanelRightSide_zpsjyvzpksb.png
 
GMC 305

I think you should consider putting the GMC 305 on top of the stack. All of the airlines have the autopilot controller centered on top. All of the Garmin photos I have seen also show the GMC 305 on top too.
 
Dennis,

I have the G3x panel with not all the backup you have. As important as it is to get the layout you want, even more critical is figuring out where you are going to mount all the components behind the panel. Make sure your harness has long enough wiring to mount everything where you want it.

I could have saved myself many hours of build, rebuild with a few simple things. Not knowing you don't know is the tricky thing.

If you want pictures of what I did, pm me with your email address. Have fun.
 
I can't speak to the panel at all but it looks great to me! What tool did you use to create this?
 
Do yourself a favor. Make a full size mock up of the panel out of wood, cardboard, plexiglass or whatever works for you. Then sit behind it and go through your normal flight routine to see if the layout works for you.

Then put the mock up away for a few days and go through the process again. Repeat this several times until you feel comfortable with the layout. After a few iterations of this the layout will feel and be right.

My 2 cents.

:cool:
 
I agree with Galin, mock-up the panel on some scrap and run through your checklist and make sure it flows in one direction.

It looks like a pretty solid layout to me, amazing what we can put in our "homemade" airplane.

I put my autopilot (GMC305) at the top of the stack as suggested on VAF, no regrets. It is nice to use the top of the panel to steady my hand as I punch buttons. I believe I would've been happy with it on the bottom as well but.....I put it up top.

I originally placed my autopilot switch close to your position, I hated it as soon as I installed the toggle switch. You can't see it so much in the pic, but the toggle switch stuck out further than everything else in the panel above the row of switches. Probably just me but it felt like I had to go around the autopilot switch to get to the 400W. It's the toggle switch underneath the middle of the 400W.
29BC6BA0-CA1C-4ECD-ADE0-8F614DBF011D_zpsp1obhbfo.jpg


I moved my autopilot switch down to the bottom row next to my engine controls and have no regrets. It seems to function well there, also my bottom rail with switches and control cables are more permanently mounted to the airframe while the upper potions of the panel are easier removed. My second choice would've been the upper left side of my panel, somewhere around the Dynon in your setup. I cutout the old toggle switch position to fit a Ray Allen switch to control a future cowl flap.
079428EE-7ACB-44E3-A61E-87069E5CD926_zpshmdwn40f.jpg


Lastly I prefer the carb heat to the left of the throttle, only because it seems more conventional to the factory airplane placement.

Best part is, it's your airplane and build what you want!
 
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Panel Layout Review

You've got a second com radio (GTN-650 + GTR20) but I don't see where you have a second nav source. For IFR I think you need one.
 
Be sure to double-check the clearances on deep components (like the D6) if you have a tip-up (don't know anything about the 9, I built a 7). I *almost* had to redo the panel because of an interference between the stiffeners on the canopy and the audio panel when the tip-up was closed (some flush pulled rivets gave me enough clearance, but it was a squeaker). I.e., don't just think about the part you'll see, think about all the moving parts that will have to clear all the components of the panel.

Looks very nice, though...let us see it when it's done!
 
i agree with putting the a/p panel on top. you spend more time pushing buttons on the a/p panel than you do switching audio.

bob burns
RV-4 N82RB
 
dba,
You have had some good opinions.
I will add a few.
I would add a to/go. I would try to get better separation between groups of switches. Especially Flap and FP. I used fuses rather than breakers and was able to put them in a swing down panel to get them out of the panel.
I put my GMC305 on the bottom and I like it there. However it is the shortest item in the panel so connections on the back will be best for a top position.
Some of your misc. items would fit nicely on the far right. USB, 12vdc, dimmer, cabin heat. I think you will find the cabin heat cable works best from a side position anyway.
I have two GDU370 portrait efis's. I am not sure I would want or need a second touch unless someone is going to fly from the right seat alot.
The oil cooler damper knob may be better beside the carb. heat rather than having another knee banger on the left.
 
terrye said:
You've got a second com radio (GTN-650 + GTR20) but I don't see where you have a second nav source. For IFR I think you need one.
Click to expand...

True in Canada, but not in the US. Although having some backup (maybe a battery operated gps) is certainly a good idea.

A matching look, or function, what's important to you? For a few dollars more, PS audio panels are considerably superior to the 240.
 
In addition to all other comments, plan your panel in such way that you can add even more things later on if you had to. With that, I would look to move the A/P switch to another location to preserve that spot for another full size stack device. Also, Cabin Heat and oil cooler pull cables can easily be fitted in that control cable area but I will leave enough room just in case you added a CS prop control cable.
 
You might want to add a forth switch in the Mag row (use can use a blank for now), in case you upgrade to a second EFI system
 
Switches along the bottom

I have my switches along the bottom like you show. I like them there however I have noticed that sometimes I bump the ones on the left when I am getting out of the plane.

Normally I leave the strobe switch on in order to give myself notice of the master being on. That has saved me multiple times. On one occasion I turned the strobe switch off while doing maintenance and sure enough I killed the battery by leaving the master on shortly thereafter.

Last week..... I killed the battery with my BC-8 (backup alternator) switch. It held a relay engaged for a week. The PC-680 almost started me but not quite. :(

SO, the point is, I would recommend some bump protection for any switch that could kill the battery (such as master, back up alternator, or essential bus).

I will be installing some bump protection in the near future. Tired of it. :mad:
 
Good advice

Read that advice carefully! I thought all my mounting was done and then I read RV7A Flyer's post. My backup battery was too close to the side and when I checked my canopy just now, it needed to be moved. It was an easy move, but it is worth throwing the canopy on after you THINK you have everything where you want it!


RV7A Flyer said:
Be sure to double-check the clearances on deep components (like the D6) if you have a tip-up (don't know anything about the 9, I built a 7). I *almost* had to redo the panel because of an interference between the stiffeners on the canopy and the audio panel when the tip-up was closed (some flush pulled rivets gave me enough clearance, but it was a squeaker). I.e., don't just think about the part you'll see, think about all the moving parts that will have to clear all the components of the panel.

Looks very nice, though...let us see it when it's done!
Click to expand...
 
Take a look at Vertical Power VP-X to simplify a lot of the behind panel stuff. You might also look at the new PS Engineering audio panel PDA 360EX to save a few bucks (also USB built in). I'm not so sure another NAV is really that important given the independent GPS in the EFIS's. Presumably if the GTN 650 fails, these (nonIFR) nav sources could be used for backup.
 
Nice!

You have a nice set up there. We too went With The G3X system. The panel space in an 8 is much smaller so we had to make the best of it. As others have said we put the 305 auto-pilot controller at the top of the radio stack as high as we could, it is more natural to have it at the top when you are using it all the time, in and out of VFR to IFR. The other thing I saw was that you selected the 240 audio panel. We went with the 340. The 340 or 350 has a marker-beacon in it, were as the 240 dose not and the 240 is none TSOed. If you are going to try any be Full IFR with this aircraft and that is another topic. If you have the marker beacon along with a or two VOR radios, you have the option of VOR, LOC, and GLS, approaches. Then if you get something like a GTN-650 your also have the GPS approaches along with the standard old hole shots. It gives you more with-out spending a lot more for it as you go together. I know there are many out there that say GPS is all you want to be using these days, and that's fine. My home work led me to believe that the day will come that the GLS will go a-way, but it will be a long time coming. Most all of the ATP's I have talked to say that the ILS is their main stay all over the world and looks to stay that way for some time.
It is not much, but I hope it help you. Yours as always. R.E.A. III #80888
 
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Consider adding a T.O.G.A. button somewhere in the vicinity of your throttle. If you will be working on your instrument rating at some point, you will really want to add this capability to your GMC305. You can read up on it in the installation manual and pilot guide, but its best feature is when you push the button at minimums on an approach, the autopilot will pitch up to go-around attitude and transition the GTN650 from approach to missed approach NAV. The autopilot will then execute the missed approach and enter the holding pattern for you, or if not on autopilot, the flight director will give you the corresponding missed approach commands.
 
I don't understand why you want a fancy audio panel. A stand alone intercom takes less space and money. A cheap subpanel mixer would be the most you'd need with your few fixed audio sources. All the frequency and mic selection is done at the GTN.

John Siebold
 
I like the layout. The big things that I would say are:

1. Consider moving the autopilot control to the top
2. I would move the flap control to the end, or down to the throttle quadrant. Middle of a row of switches may make it less easy to find
3. The radio dimmer location looks like an afterthought. If you go to a GMA350 or a 750 with a remote audio panel, you can do away with the radio dimmer all together
4. Don't forget the passenger warning placard.
 
RV-12 avionics setup

You might want to check out the RV-12 G3X setup as they have the sheet metal parts made up and it is the same layout as you are planning. would save you a lot of time.
 
Looks like a good set-up, I like the audio panel and AP at the bottom. I would use a GRT Mini-X rather than the Dynon D6 - much more modern unit. I would also consider a 2nd alternator rather than any back-up batteries - much less maintenance, but does need a power stabilizer to hold up the EFIS during starting (http://www.tcwtech.com/IPS-12v.htm).

I would also delete the GTN and fit a c/s prop.

Pete
 
one more thing.....the elephant in the cockpit?

Denis, I know little to nothing about laying out a super panel like that....but this may be one of the few chances to address some design and construction items that will make your panel safer.

Lots of instances in crashes where the impact was not 'straight-line', and the occupants flop around like rag dolls. ( the belts are rarely tight enough!)

When things stop, you've mashed your face/head against everything in the cockpit, and your legs have been hacked up by all the sharp stuff below the panel....I know I have a nice throttle bracket just waiting to slice me off at the knees, so I'm no better off.
Have a look inside your car....almost everything has been padded, rounded, etc. ( tho' they haven't done as much under the dash as they could!)

... just a little ray 'o sunshine for your day!
 
Robert Anglin said:
You have a nice set up there. We too went With The G3X system. The panel space in an 8 is much smaller so we had to make the best of it. As others have said we put the 305 auto-pilot controller at the top of the radio stack as high as we could, it is more natural to have it at the top when you are using it all the time, in and out of VFR to IFR. The other thing I saw was that you selected the 240 audio panel. We went with the 340. The 340 or 350 has a marker-beacon in it, were as the 240 dose not and the 240 is none TSOed. If you are going to try any be Full IFR with this aircraft and that is another topic. If you have the marker beacon along with a or two VOR radios, you have the option of VOR, LOC, and GLS, approaches. Then if you get something like a GTN-650 your also have the GPS approaches along with the standard old hole shots. It gives you more with-out spending a lot more for it as you go together. I know there are many out there that say GPS is all you want to be using these days, and that's fine. My home work led me to believe that the day will come that the GLS will go a-way, but it will be a long time coming. Most all of the ATP's I have talked to say that the ILS is their main stay all over the world and looks to stay that way for some time.
It is not much, but I hope it help you. Yours as always. R.E.A. III #80888
Click to expand...

Robert, the 650 is not just a gps. It also has VOR/LOC/GS. Marker beacons are going the way of the do-do, I would not bother with them. The TSO'd gps is a legal alternative to both MB's and/or an ADF used as part of an ILS.
But I agree with the earlier poster - ditch the 240, get an intercom with multiple unswitched inputs (plus a single switch to swap mike and PTT lines).
 
Two more suggestions to consider:

1 - have a PTT the passenger can use if the stick is removed, does not have to be on the panel.
2 - include a fuse protected, always hot power outlet. Nice to be able to charge a phone/tablet/etc without having the master on. Also nice to be able to plug in a trickle charger.

Regards,
 
Just a couple of notes, details really, but they may make your life easier later.

The mounting kits for the G3x displays have the plate-nuts attached to a thin strip, maybe .25" wide. The radios usually mount with 3/4" angle. It looks like you don't have the radios and the G3x panels spaced far enough apart for this to all work out so they don't interfere. I'm working on mounting my radio stack components right now and it is already difficult enough to get a perfect fit without a problem like this.
 
If it is truly a backup, why do all the plumbing for a Dynon D6, get a D2 instead. $500 cheaper. Vertical Power rather than individual CBs. Have something under the panel for connecting USB sticks, and NOT having them point "down" (to be broken by knees) but instead pointing aft. USB extender cables could be used for that. Don't waste panel space on USB sockets that then stick out.

Think about your power port location in actual use. The wire from it is right in the passengers lap, legs, or going around the stick. Consider the RV12 location, in between the 2 seats next to the floorboards, pointing forward. Next to it is the music input. So wires to both don't drape across laps. Bluetooth is probably better for music input if you like that.

Your AP switch is taking up a whole "row" by itself. That is a valuable block-sized space. I'd relocate it to the bottom row.
 
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