SDS vs. Titan EXP FI

We are about to purchase an RV-7A project that has a Titan O-360 installed. It currently does not have a carb on the engine.

The heads appear to have plugged injector ports which I assume are standard on most engines (showing my novice ignorance here). It does have dual P-mags already installed.

We would prefer to have fuel injection and the Titan experimental FI system caught my eye. I am planning to install the SDS ignition and FI on the RV-10 that we are also building. Getting some experience with SDS on the -7A would be beneficial. I can always sell the P-mags as they are basically new.

I have read many of the posts about the SDS system and it appears to be very solid with plenty of benefits. I have not seen any reports on the Titan system.

We know we do not want a carburetor, so I'm looking for advice and opinions on either the SDS or Titan EXP FI.

I'd guess the best place to start is the feature list of each offering. Ross has brought some very useful aviation specific features to market recently and to me they are a clear product discriminator.

Individual cylinder trim, integrated fuel flow (no flow meter), barometric altitude compensation, a user definable LOP switch for spark AND fuel, and direct mount injectors all come to mind.

No question the SDS and the EFII systems are the gold standards for EFI/EI today. I'm also trying to determine if there are less expensive or possibly less "risky" options more along the lines of traditional aircraft mechanical FI systems.

The Titan mechanical injection system is much like Continental constant flow injection, and not at all like the Bendix-pattern constant flow usually seen on Lycoming/Lyclone engines. It's not real common; offhand I only know one guy flying it who posts here.

Here's a Titan EXP FI brochure for those who haven't seen it.
http://eci.aero/pdf/FISbrochure.pdf

The SDS offerings are great. I only have a standard electrical system, one battery, one alternator, one buss, that's holding me back.

I believe Sky Dynamics is also now offering their own mechanical FI. No idea on pricing or how many are flying though. Lots of choices out there.

Too many choices...

rv6ejguy said:

I believe Sky Dynamics is also now offering their own mechanical FI. No idea on pricing or how many are flying though. Lots of choices out there.

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All with their pluses and minuses.

Mr. Farnham, I am looking for an excuse to buy your system for the 7A and the 10. Help me out here

P-mags

I will need 2 p-mags before spring, let me know if you decide to swap them out.

KatanaPilot said:

All with their pluses and minuses.

Mr. Farnham, I am looking for an excuse to buy your system for the 7A and the 10. Help me out here

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We don't like to do the hard sell thing, just tell the truth on what the system can do which the mechanical systems can't. If you've followed the various threads here on VAF, you probably know the advantages. Main disadvantages would be wiring complexity, the need for backup power and the need for fuel return lines to the tanks I would say.

2 Pmags and an AFP setup is around $5K which is right around where our kits start for a single ECU with fuel trim and fuel flow options, bit more with the dual ECU, associated dual sensors, wiring and switchgear.

Sure will!

engineerorange said:

I will need 2 p-mags before spring, let me know if you decide to swap them out.

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If we move forward, the airplane should be in Atlanta by then so I'll keep you in mind.

And the Titan EXP system is no longer being produced. One less choice, so that's probably good.

Thanks for the pricing info on the SDS. That helps, too.

G'day Ross,

Have there been any failures of the ECU that you're aware of? And how many customers would you say choose the dual ECU vs single ECU option?

How did you make your choice?

Those of you who went with either SDS or EFII - what criteria did you use to make your choice?

It sounds like both companies produce first class products and their service is equally outstanding. I also understand that SDS makes the ECU's for both systems.

So how did you choose one or the other? Not trying to start a battle but I'm sure there is a feature or features that swayed the decision.

EFII VS. SDS

I was one of the early adopters of Roberts EFII system. All I can say is that the system works perfectly and Robert has outstanding customer service. He offers a turn-key package that's easy to install along with detailed instructions. Yes, he does get the ECU from Ross at SDS, but I'm not sure what else he gets from him. Although I've never purchased anything directly from Ross, I have sent my ECU's back to him for a software update and he also provided me with excellent customer service. I'm not sure how much of a turn-key package Ross offers but I'm sure you'll be very happy with the electronic ignition and electronic fuel injection that you'll now have. I'm not sure if there's ever been a failure of an ECU but I did go with the duel ECU setup just to given me a little more redundancy and to give me the warm fuzzies. I would highly recommended this systems regardless of what company you ultimately decided to do business with.

Mark

KRviator said:

G'day Ross,

Have there been any failures of the ECU that you're aware of? And how many customers would you say choose the dual ECU vs single ECU option?

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I am not aware of any ECU failures in aviation. We're closing in on an estimated 450,000 flight hours now on around 1500 aviation units. We have heard of several MAP sensor failures but these appear to mostly on third party supplied sensors of unknown quality or where the sensors were not mounted in the recommended orientation allowing condensation to settle on the sensing chip over time.

We've heard of at least one TPS failure in cruise but the pilot zeroed out the values with the programmer and continued to destination- one reason we recommend having the mixture knob and programmer installed in aircraft.

Had one forced landing on a T51 whose builder decided aluminum exhaust stacks would save some weight. These predictably melted, allowing exhaust gases to melt through the crank sensor cable. We now supply fire sleeve for that cable.

There were at least 2 failures on third party supplied coil drivers due to faulty soldering. These showed up on the ground fortunately.

There may indeed be other failures which are not reported to us. If you've had one, we'd like to know and try to learn why. There have been a number of problems caused by bad wiring practices causing phantom missing or ECU shutdowns/ reboots. ECUs do require good grounds and power to operate obviously.

I would say that single vs. dual ECU choices tend to follow budgets in most cases these days. VW guys almost never purchase dual systems, RV10 guys almost always do. Of the 1500 units flying, certainly well over 1200 of those are single ECU systems. I'd say our mix now in the last 2 years though is about 50/50 single/dual.

The ECU only draws about .1 amps and uses FET drivers (very power efficient and cool running), heat sunk to a thick billet chassis. There is no significant heat anywhere and no external cooling is required, thus there are no real reasons for a unit to ever fail. One of our bench test units had about 145,000 hours on it running 24/7 for years before it was retired for a newer model.

Unlike some competitor electronics, our controller boards are conformal coated in critical areas to better resist moisture and vibration and internal wiring is all strain relieved. I've been shocked to see how some competitors build their electronics, maybe ok sitting in your house but likely to fail bolted to a vibrating airplane over time. Our FF components are weather sealed whereas many competitor components really aren't.

We've got features that nobody else is offering at this price point like individual cylinder fuel trim, data logging and dual access programmer. Our Lycoming kits are very complete. You can see that all the aluminum bits are nicely annodized for durability and looks. Not shown in the photo below are the Tefzel wiring harnesses built to your length and termination specs.

KatanaPilot said:

Those of you who went with either SDS or EFII - what criteria did you use to make your choice?

It sounds like both companies produce first class products and their service is equally outstanding. I also understand that SDS makes the ECU's for both systems.

So how did you choose one or the other? Not trying to start a battle but I'm sure there is a feature or features that swayed the decision.

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Had a visit with Robert about a year ago and while he offers a compelling package, as a long time gearhead I just could not accept the backwards facing injectors. Despite the evidence that they seem to function ok, it just screams "Rube Goldberg" to me. Ross' direct mount injectors use the factory Lycoming injector geometry and are a much more elegant solution to me. No permanent modifications required - Ross takes the "bolt on" EFI concept to a new level.

While Ross' injector mounts were the primary discriminator for me, the targeted aviation specific software changes that Ross has come out with in the last year sealed the deal. Ross' advances have clearly left the older CPU still retained by EFII in the dust.

So, both SDS and EFII have good product- but SDS fits my needs/wants much better.

Clearly people have their preferences for fuel injection and ignition systems. Nobody has the same mission and comfort level so there is no "right" system for everyone. Mechanical FI systems and even mags still appeal to many. I just think it's good that there are several choices for both which may fit your needs and wants.

My standard advice is to research all your potential choices, contact the vendors and others already using the systems for feedback and to help judge what your customer support might be like after purchase.

We want the customer to be happy with their choice in the end whether it's SDS, EFII or even another system. It isn't small change for any of these setups to be sure. I don't think you see many customer service complaints with AFP, SDS or EFII because we all know long term survival and growth is largely driven by customer satisfaction and word of mouth. It doesn't make sense to treat people badly or BS them.

We certainly appreciate all of the customers who've chosen our products and show such loyalty towards them.

Ross, is there any plan to verify your top mount injectors work for the ECI cylinders? I know the website says they're tested with Lycoming only. If it was a known working bolt in config for an ECI 320, I'd start planning how to make the necessary fuel and electrical mods to support an install.

The info on single/dual ECU is insightful; is it a straightforward process to change the single to dual later on if desired, say for an IFR upgrade? Or simply better to go dual from the start.

Me too...

I'm in the same boat, at least for the RV-7A project I'm about to buy. The engine is a Titan ECI O-360 which I assume has ECI cylinders. I saw the plugged injector ports on the heads and I expect you could use a Bendix-type FI system.

I would also like to know if the SDS thread in injectors would work on this engine.

The RV-10 I'm building has a Lycoming engine, not a clone. I would like to use the same system on both airplanes.

jwyatt said:

Ross, is there any plan to verify your top mount injectors work for the ECI cylinders? I know the website says they're tested with Lycoming only. If it was a known working bolt in config for an ECI 320, I'd start planning how to make the necessary fuel and electrical mods to support an install.

The info on single/dual ECU is insightful; is it a straightforward process to change the single to dual later on if desired, say for an IFR upgrade? Or simply better to go dual from the start.

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A customer with ECI cylinders will be receiving his kit next week and verify the screw-in injectors fit these ok. Detailed photos make it look like they will fit but only trying them will confirm.

I will be out at an engine shop in the next 10 days regarding some other matters but I'll try to test fit the injectors on all brands of cylinders I can find in their shop while I'm there. Will report my finding here.

It's not so easy to change from a single to dual ECU after installation but doable. There is a lot of extra wiring, sensors and switchgear to install and the programmer would need to be changed for the dual access type. The Hall sensor mount accepts both single and dual type sensors though so that can remain as is.

jwyatt said:

...The info on single/dual ECU is insightful; is it a straightforward process to change the single to dual later on if desired, say for an IFR upgrade? Or simply better to go dual from the start.

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For those who are considering the SDS product, I would recommend going with the dual hall sensor right from the start regardless of your plan to go dual or single systems. This goes for the CPI or EM-5 systems. I just helped a buddy install a single CPI on his F-1 Rocket, convinced he was going to retain the magneto. Well, after the first flight he was ready to dump the mag for a second CPI, but was not looking forward to digging around the fwd baffling and stringing more wire again.

The cost and weight penalty of the second sensor is negligable and even if you truly remain with a single system, you have a "spare" sensor in the unlikely event the hall goes Tango Uniform. The hall sensor is not difficult to install, but you really only want to have to do it once.

We're getting close to clearing a massive order backlog by next week and I finally had a chance to update some of the web pages this morning. There are some new photos on the Lycoming Page: http://www.sdsefi.com/lycoming.htm

These show Marvin McGraw's super clean installation on his IO-390 which may give some others some good ideas for their installations. Thanks Marvin!

I also put some ballpark system pricing on the page because many folks were asking for those. Fixed a dead link for the aviation manuals and updated others.

Thanks to our customers for being patient through the last couple months. It has been a trying time for us to expand production while getting new designs, features and software releases done while prepping for another ECU board run, building and installing new work benches, PC upgrades, shop cleanup and training some new contractors while my business partner worked through some family issues. Busy would not describe the last while here.

I've unfortunately had little chance to fly my 6A lately, hope I can do some more of that later this month.

Did they fit?

rv6ejguy said:

A customer with ECI cylinders will be receiving his kit next week and verify the screw-in injectors fit these ok. Detailed photos make it look like they will fit but only trying them will confirm.

I will be out at an engine shop in the next 10 days regarding some other matters but I'll try to test fit the injectors on all brands of cylinders I can find in their shop while I'm there. Will report my finding here.

It's not so easy to change from a single to dual ECU after installation but doable. There is a lot of extra wiring, sensors and switchgear to install and the programmer would need to be changed for the dual access type. The Hall sensor mount accepts both single and dual type sensors though so that can remain as is.

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Wondered if your screw-in injectors worked on the Titan/ECI cylinders.

KatanaPilot said:

Wondered if your screw-in injectors worked on the Titan/ECI cylinders.

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Only tried on parallel valve Titan cylinder so far. Seem to fit the same as factory Lycoming ones.