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Wings

W

WVM

Well Known Member
Hi,

My wing kit should arrive in about 2 weeks by ship. An ideal time to start planning the arrival. I have a few practical questions:

1. I have seen various wing stand designs. Some use a design with two wings, others use one for a single wing. What would you suggest? Build one wing at a time or simultaneously build both wings?

2. As you all know Proseal has a limited shelf life. My aviation authorities need to check my empennage before I am allowed to close it completely. This means that I still have to do the Proseal related tasks on the empennage. My idea was to close the empennage and directly also do the Proseal work on the wing tanks. Would it be a good idea to start on the wing tanks first, and deviate from the actual working order in the plans? Would that result in practical issues? Or may that simply be impossible or a bad idea?

Thank you
 
I suggest building both wings at the same time. The only thing in the empennage that requires proseal is in the finishing steps of the trim tab (unless you want to use it on the trailing edges). Just put the trim tab aside until you are ready to do your fuel tanks and do everything then.
 
I can tell you that I was very happy that I did both wings at the same time so my recommendation is that if you have the space, do both.

There are many times when you have the re-rig a tool or re-organize for a specific task that getting both wings done at the same time really saved me time. It also helped that having very recent experience with one aspect of wing assembly made the same tasks on the other wing go much faster.

Also keep in mind that proseal is not required on the empennage. You can use marine epoxy (good for use on aluminum) to glue the trailing edges together prior to riveting.

That's my 2 cents.
 
True about the Proseal. But there is some Proseal where the stiffeners of both sides join as well. What would you use there?

About the Rudi Greyling stands, my problem is that I have floor heating, so I am unable to drill into the floor. The ceiling is made from plasterboard. Any suggestions to attach it properly? The walls are also not an option. I though on using a large shuttering panel, but that will need some thickness to be secure the weight. This opens the change to stumble...

What is the minimum distance between both stands?

Other option I am considering is this design in wood:
Wing stand SmittysRV

The problem with wood is that I will probably need it for 1 or 2 years and fear that it will not remain perfectly square over time.

Thanks!
 
Wing jig

WVM said:
True about the Proseal. But there is some Proseal where the stiffeners of both sides join as well. What would you use there?

About the Rudi Greyling stands, my problem is that I have floor heating, so I am unable to drill into the floor. The ceiling is made from plasterboard. Any suggestions to attach it properly? The walls are also not an option. I though on using a large shuttering panel, but that will need some thickness to be secure the weight. This opens the change to stumble...

What is the minimum distance between both stands?

Other option I am considering is this design in wood:
Wing stand SmittysRV

The problem with wood is that I will probably need it for 1 or 2 years and fear that it will not remain perfectly square over time.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Take a look at Dave's wing jig. I've seen it. Posts are glued to the shop floor.
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=85658&page=5
 
My wing "stand" consists of two 4x4 wood posts attached to aluminum angle brackets bolted to the floor and ceiling. My ceiling is like yours plasterboard over 2x4s. The top aluminum angles are long enough to be bolted to the two adjacent studs in the ceiling (use a stud finder to locate them). My floor is concrete so a little different from yours, but I bolted the aluminum angles to holes drilled in the floor. The bolts only went in an inch or so. You may be able to use glue. About midway up the posts I have a 2" x 2" x 1/8" aluminum angle parallel with the floor with a diagonal brace of threaded rod back to the vertical post so I can adjust this for horizontal. The horizontal aluminum angle supports the wing spar at each end. I also have another horizontal angle below the main one to support the wing rear spar. This is both a building stand and when the wings are complete, a storage stand. Do both wings at once.

Having enough proseal on hand before the expiry date is a problem. I've got quite a few! I would only use current proseal on critical areas like the tanks, but for the trailing edge aluminum extrusions you can use proseal that is past its expiry date. If in doubt mix some up to make sure it works. Keep the cans refrigerated and you can use them long after the expiry date.
 
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Other alternatives

I used 4 by 4 posts bolted to the overhead rafter in a basement with the bottom end epoxied to the floor. When I was done, I just broke the epoxy free with a hammer and chipped off the remainder with a chisel . It was a concrete slab floor and I did not have to put any holes in it.

In places where Pro Seal is called for other than the fuel tanks, I used a marine polysulfide from 3m. There are many types available from 5200 which is permanent to caulking that can be removed. Use the permanent. It is averrable in white, grey or black. Sticks to almost anything. Worked great for foam trim tab rib and the plastic vent intakes on the fuselage sides. I did not use any sealant on the trailing edges and they came out great.
 
I have a garage ceiling that is not conducive to bolting anything to it -- drywall over the joists, with a textured finish, and various obstructions from the support beam, garage door openers, etc. I was not opposed to drilling into the slab, but wasn't wild about the idea either.

I built a wing stand out of 2x4 and 2x6 lumber, and put casters under one end. The casters just happened to be just the right height to match the slope of the garage floor. I was able to get the wing spar supports perfectly aligned, and the wings have no measurable warp or twist to them. Using some of the OSB particle board from shipping crates helped to keep the assembly very rigid.

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How much distance between the wings is needed to work comfortably? And how high should the fwd spar be above the floor for 6' builder?
 
Space

wilddog said:
How much distance between the wings is needed to work comfortably? And how high should the fwd spar be above the floor for 6' builder?
Click to expand...

I'm short, 5' 6" with short arms. My wing jigs were built so the spar was 4' off the ground and 3' between the wings. Worked pretty well. Only a few times a creeper was used to work rivets on the rear spar. Height was pretty good for riveting the bottom skins. Much higher or lower and my shop stool would have been useless. I have two Home Depot rolling shop stools. They adjust like an office chair. Very handy.
 
Av8torTom said:
Consider using threaded rod to support the spar bracket. This way you can "dial" it in dead level.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. wouldn't do it any other way. In fact, I have a complete set of AL angles and threaded rods, nuts, brackets, etc. if anyone needs them. They're even notched for the spar flange. The guy who started my -7 made them, they're quite nice.
 
I have the impression that not many use pro-seal for the wedges, while VANS is actually strongly recommending it. I also checked out the tip for the boat epoxy, but this seems also not the most easy material to work with. I may be wrong but I seems that a lot even apply nothing at all.

Does anyone has a detailed picture of those applications for the rudder? Just to get an idea how it will/should look like.
 
Proseal

WVM said:
I have the impression that not many use pro-seal for the wedges, while VANS is actually strongly recommending it. I also checked out the tip for the boat epoxy, but this seems also not the most easy material to work with. I may be wrong but I seems that a lot even apply nothing at all.

Does anyone has a detailed picture of those applications for the rudder? Just to get an idea how it will/should look like.
Click to expand...

I must be in the minority camp. I prosealed the stiffeners to the skins on both rudder and elevators and prosealed the wedge in the rudder with dollops at the intersections of the stiffeners. Basically they were all done the same as fuel tanks. Fay sealing method. Apply a film to both parts or sides, cleko and allow to cure or set them wet. The wedge was allowed to cure before riveting.
No photos of prosealing but there is a photo of the rudder clekoed to angle. Check the "empennage" page on my blog.
 
wirejock said:
I must be in the minority camp. I prosealed the stiffeners to the skins on both rudder and elevators and prosealed the wedge in the rudder with dollops at the intersections of the stiffeners. Basically they were all done the same as fuel tanks. Fay sealing method. Apply a film to both parts or sides, cleko and allow to cure or set them wet. The wedge was allowed to cure before riveting.
No photos of prosealing but there is a photo of the rudder clekoed to angle. Check the "empennage" page on my blog.
Click to expand...

I don't know who mentioned it to me, but only the rudder was set with pro-seal or T-88 epoxy according to him.
For the right elevator the manual is saying "To finish the trailing edge, follow the same procedures used for the rudder". I suppose that is including pro-seal or T-88?
For the left elevator it is mentioned as follow "While the elevator trailing edge is clecoed closed, match drill the overlapping stiffeners that close-out the elevator just outboard of the trim tab using the pre-punched holes in the E-908-R stiffeners as a drill guide. After drilling, remove the trailing edge spacer, deburr the drilled holes and dimple the skin. Dimple the holes in the E908-R stiffeners fro CS-4-4 rivets. The trailing edge spacer is machine countersunk on both sides to fit the dimples in the skin. The trailing edge should be back-riveted with the manufactured head on the upper surface. When back riveting the trailing edge, start driving with the gun held parallel to the rivet and then tilt the gun perpendicular to the skin while driving." Nothing mentioned about pro-seal or T-88 anymore...
 
Proseal for the rudder trailing edge

Van's sells a small can of pro seal that is sufficient for doing the rudder trailing edge. So you can do that now if you want.

http://vansaircraft.com/cgi-bin/store.cgi?ident=1428307284-132-612&browse=misc&product=proseal

I used RTV for the stiffeners in the elevators.

My advice is to not order the quart can of pro seal for the tanks until you are ready to start riveting. It took me a long time to get to that point and by then the pro seal I ordered with the wing kit had expired.

Build both wings at once. There is definitely a productivity benefit from learning the work on one side and then immediately applying it again on the other. You will need a bunch more silver clecos though.
 
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