"Practice approaches" in actual IMC - am I the only one?

In this thread a comment was made about "When are you supposed to practice IFR? In the soup?" Lots of folks like to grab a safety pilot (not in a weird way) along with some foggles for some practice approaches on a nice VFR day. Not me - I haven't used my foggles for quite some time.

I'm wondering what the VAF community thinks about doing practice/currency IFR flights in actual IMC conditions?

The last several flights I've done for practice and currency have been in actual IMC conditions, on a round-robin IFR flight plan. An ILS, a full RNAV (GPS), and a full RNAV (GPS) with a HPILPT done one or twice per month satisfy all the currency requirements. Bonus is that during those times there is much less traffic around.

That's a great way to maintian your currency. The more actual IFR the better.
Mike

I don't have my logbook handy, but IIRC I have about 10 hours of actual IMC, most of which were approaches, both precision and nonprecision, in my logbook while working on my Instrument ticket. My instructor believed in teaching me "in the soup." These hours were not in an RV.
P.S. HPILPT->Holding Pattern in Lieu of Procedure Turn

Good question

I just called my instructor to get current again, but I think it's time to start flying those approaches on IFR days. What kind of conditions do you like to have when getting your practice work in Brad? John

Tricky

Practicing in actual IMC is really the only way to stay "competent" versus just being current. OF COURSE this will have to be done within the margins of safety. But...how else do you safely expand your own personal minimums (those go/no go numbers) without getting yourself into a pinch in the first place?

Just my .02

I would practice exclusively in IMC if the weather here in sunny California were more accommodating. Whenever I get a chance, I will practice in IMC.

Of course, if you're in IMC, you're not practicing, you're flying actual approaches...nothing wrong with that as long as you're current.

jpowell13 said:

I just called my instructor to get current again, but I think it's time to start flying those approaches on IFR days. What kind of conditions do you like to have when getting your practice work in Brad? John

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This time of year, I live for days with 400-800' ceilings, 2-5 miles visibility, and VFR conditions within 45 minutes. Thunderstorms are a no-go, of course, but I don't mind some rain thrown in for good measure. 12-24 hours after a frontal passage with storms/rain/etc. is frequently ideal for providing these kinds of conditions.

KRST, which is about a 25 minute flight from my homebase, always seems to have lower weather than other airports. If it's 500' at KSGS, it's probably 200 or 300 at KRST. Great conditions for ILS practice.

Aren't you supposed to be working, Paul?

I'm a huge fan of instrument flying and agree that it must be conducted in IMC to maintain true proficiency. I have never flown a hood, foggle, etc. that didn't allow some little cheat to settle down my vestibular system. Totally different story when you're white knuckled, sweating, fighting the leans, and have NO way to peak

I do the safety pilot thing (thanks, MikeH), but would never think of that being my only 'currency'. BTW, round robins (at least if the fields are in close proximity to one another) are a good way to ratchet up the difficulty as things come fast and furious - e.g. you're on your missed and your next IAF is 8 miles away - have to get settled, brief, and set up for the next approach in a hurry. Definitely shows flaws in your flow, buttonology, etc. A point to point IFR flight - departure, enroute, 1 approach - is pretty tame in comparison.

both

There's a lot to be said for maintaing currency in actual IMC, especially for new or low-imc time pilots. But don't get complacent. Breaking out under an 800' ceiling to 5 mile visibility isn't the same as 200' and 1/2 on a dark night.

And when do you practice flying on just your backup instruments, using your handheld VOR or iPad or whatever your fall-back nav is? Or unusual attitude recovery? Some things are best done under the hood in VMC. I've done some IPC's to pilots who kept 'current' by actual flying, but hadn't done these things above in years; they were pretty rusty. One guy claimed it was not possible to navigate and fly after I 'failed' his autopilot!

BobTurner said:

There's a lot to be said for maintaing currency in actual IMC, especially for new or low-imc time pilots. But don't get complacent. Breaking out under an 800' ceiling to 5 mile visibility isn't the same as 200' and 1/2 on a dark night.

And when do you practice flying on just your backup instruments, using your handheld VOR or iPad or whatever your fall-back nav is? Or unusual attitude recovery? Some things are best done under the hood in VMC. I've done some IPC's to pilots who kept 'current' by actual flying, but hadn't done these things above in years; they were pretty rusty. One guy claimed it was not possible to navigate and fly after I 'failed' his autopilot!

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Yep, this is part of it. Flick the Dynon to the engine monitor page and maintain attitude using the turn coordinator, airspeed indicator, and altimeter.

60av8tor said:

Aren't you supposed to be working, Paul?



BTW, round robins (at least if the fields are in close proximity to one another) are a good way to ratchet up the difficulty as things come fast and furious - e.g. you're on your missed and your next IAF is 8 miles away - have to get settled, brief, and set up for the next approach in a hurry. Definitely shows flaws in your flow, buttonology, etc. A point to point IFR flight - departure, enroute, 1 approach - is pretty tame in comparison.

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I can see the monitors from my seat just fine...

I used to do a great deal of round robins around the potomac TRACON area (BWI, Dulles areas), definately great value for one's training dollar. Rapid fire approaches have been known to break down some ego's (MOSTLY MINE) but hey, better than breaking an airframe or worse.

A second and appropriately rated eye should be a 'must have' for rapid fire approaches, and a bottle of water, and perhaps a less fragile ego.

I'm not instrument rated yet, but I am nearing the end of my training for the rating. At this point I am trying to fly as much actual IMC as I can get, subject to my work schedule, my instructor's schedule, and convective weather. There is a huge difference for me between hood work and real IMC. I can't imagine in the future flying only practice approaches in VMC and believing I'm competent to fly in IMC.

IMHO one of the shortfalls of instrument training - that I have no answer for - is that it is not possible to simulate 1/2 mile visibility, and a lot of ifr students never experience it in training. This is one thing that can only be practiced in actual conditions. The difference between 1/2 and 1 is like night and day. Remember, on a cat 1 ILS, at decision altitude, you cannot see the runway with 1/2 mile vis. This is not the time to be making your standard 110 kias/no flaps approach.

1001001 said:

I am trying to fly as much actual IMC as I can get,

competent to fly in IMC.

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Keep going, competency in IMC is an outstanding tool to have in the tool bag. After moving from Texas (El Paso) for the last 4-years I too need some additional training. Kudos to your CFI for enabling you the realization that current does not equal competent. Currency protects certificates, competency protects flesh.

I really dislike the hood and I go flying when our area is 500' or so. Very hard to do in the summer in Florida as everything is convective and in a big way. I try to make up for it in the winter.
My instructor and I spend some of my training looking for airports with smoke the one year we had a lot of fires. Good low vis. conditions as Bob mentions.

some have no choice

If I relied on only practicing in IMC conditions, I'd never be able to stay current. I think a good mix is the best way to stay proficient. Practicing in IMC is good, but as others have stated, this limits options when it comes to staying comfortable with unusual flight conditions. And if you only practice in IMC, when's the last time you practiced a down-to-minimums-can't-see-the-runway missed approach? Between the flying and the button pushing, there's a lot going on close to the ground and things need to be done smoothly and correctly. A sim ride, if you can get it, is a great workout every once in a while if you have one available to you.

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer as everybody is different, and what works for one might not work for the other.

Good points Bob

I've got a good instructor like Bob that likes to throw me a curve now and then. It's nice to get that kind of "help" when you're doing currency work and not worried about passing a check ride or trying to survive a trip in the soup. Garmin buttonology worries me more than maintaining control. Having gotten the rating before GPS, I still turn the big knob when I should turn the little one sometimes. Those issues are best worked out VFR, but after another round with the instructor, I'll pick a good day and go swimming in the deep end. John

I'd agree that a good mix is probably the best.

I got my IR back in 06 when I was still renting Cessna's. I ended up with about 15 hours of actual during my training and not much after the rating. I did keep current for years just in case I ever needed it. I found that most of the time I just chose not to spend the money to rent on the crummy days. I let my currency finally go about half way through building my 7A and completed the build in 2011.

I always planned to do IFR in my RV but didn't make things happen till this year. I had some things to do to get my airplane certified and needed a lot of practice to get myself back in the game. And I needed an IPC. I pulled out my trusty KING IFR CD's, fired up my Microsoft Flight Sim, and started practicing in my RV with a safety pilot. I also got night current so I'd still have time to practice after work.

After about 4 months of all of the above I got my airplane certified and completed my IPC. Once I was good to go I couldn't find a cloud. On the days I was available to fly it was either raining hard or clear by the time I got to the airport after work. Kind of like when your driving all the street lights are red but if you're trying to fill out a bank deposit slip or something they're all green. That's exactly what it felt like.

Even without clouds I went ahead and tried to file some real world scenarios on airports I often fly to. I learned a lot just doing that. I know on longer trips the "preferred routes" in the AFD come into play but staying relatively local you really never know what you're going to get. I laugh about the "file what you want, fly what you get, and log what you need" saying cause it's so true at least around here. I also noticed that the controllers sometimes the ones behind. Stuff like sending you through the final approach course or forgetting to give you an approach clearance in a reasonable amount of time. In their defense it can be pretty busy at times around here and usually they're pretty good.

The last several weeks have been great for weather for IFR and I've managed to pick up 2 hours of actual. It's definitely a lot different and I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little nervous starting down into the clouds on an approach but it's sure rewarding and a lot of fun. IFR really is a well thought out system and its neat seeing it all come together again.

Ok back on the subject...

For me at this point in my hobby I think both hood time with a safety pilot and solo IMC is the best practice for me. My personal minimums are the low end of marginal VFR and I think that's just about right. I think that shooting a precision approach to minimums while partial panel is something I'd like to practice just below the clouds with a safety pilot. I'm confident I could do it in actual if necessary but why add the risk during practice. After all this whole flying thing is just for fun.

I know that weather can always change but if and when I actually need to fly a precision approach to minimums I will need to take a hard look at my planning and decision making process.

I got my IFR in 2011 and haven't logged an hour of it since. But I haven't been trying either. Not to turn this into a debate on "to IFR or not to IFR", but someone around here long ago said you can get a whole lot of hotel rooms and rental cars for the price of IFR gear and currency etal. I'll still put all the IFR gear in my plane to have the option, but whether I fly IMC again remains to be seen.

If you don't really have to be anywhere, then when you get there is immaterial.

maniago said:

I got my IFR in 2011 and haven't logged an hour of it since. But I haven't been trying either. Not to turn this into a debate on "to IFR or not to IFR", but someone around here long ago said you can get a whole lot of hotel rooms and rental cars for the price of IFR gear and currency etal. I'll still put all the IFR gear in my plane to have the option, but whether I fly IMC again remains to be seen.

If you don't really have to be anywhere, then when you get there is immaterial.

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Where we agree in entirety is competency in IMC is a great additional safety factor. Competency that lulls a pilot into flying into unsafe flying conditions...was never competency; the decisions we make are part of that mix IMHO.

RVs are outstanding traveling machines, and being IFR capable and competent truly expands our ability to fly places we want to see. But if your own mission profile is the local (relative) $100 burger...your opinion may vary.

Can anyone share their ILS flap setting/speed for an RV-8 please? I have been using approach (half) flaps and about 85 KIAS over the FAF. Aircraft has a tendency to exceed approach flaps Vfe with A/P engaged if your not quick on the throttle.

On my last ILS approach I found that 10 degrees of flaps, MP at 15 inches, gave me a speed of about 100 KIAS.

Reduce to about 11 inches upon GS intercept.

With beefier flap rods, calculated data and empirical tests I determined that 120 KIAS was safe with 10 degrees of flaps.

YMMV

Don

ILS

sjsflyer said:

Can anyone share their ILS flap setting/speed for an RV-8 please? I have been using approach (half) flaps and about 85 KIAS over the FAF. Aircraft has a tendency to exceed approach flaps Vfe with A/P engaged if your not quick on the throttle.

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In my -8 I've tried various setting and I currently fly 100 KIAS, no flaps. About 14.5" until glide slope intercept then approximately 9" down the glide slope (200 horse engine).

At 90 and partial flaps, my plane seems to yaw a little too much in the turbulence making it harder to hold a heading.

The plane is really easy to fly on the ILS at 120 KIAS, but flying that speed to DA makes it nearly impossible to get slowed enough for flaps and landing.

Skylor
RV-8

Really, you should be proficient at flying approaches in different configurations and different speeds. Sooner or later ATC will ask you to slow down, or speed up, to keep proper spacing with traffic. You can always say 'no' but then expect to get delaying vectors.
More importantly this is one of the 'judgement' areas. If you reasonably expect to break out at 400' agl into visibilities of 1 mile or more, especially during the day, then fly whatever is convenient. But if you expect 1/2 - 3/4 mile visibility, especially at night, the last thing you want to do is to be throttling back, pull the nose up, getting the flaps out, madly re-trimming, all while 150' off the ground with an uncertain horizon. For these conditions it's best to fly pretty much configured for landing, say 1/2 flaps and 80 kias depending on weight, and plan on landing with no configuration changes - just 1/2 flaps. Unless you have a 10,000' runway.

sjsflyer said:

Can anyone share their ILS flap setting/speed for an RV-8 please? I have been using approach (half) flaps and about 85 KIAS over the FAF. Aircraft has a tendency to exceed approach flaps Vfe with A/P engaged if your not quick on the throttle.

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Barring any speed restrictions, I generally fly approaches at 140kts. This lets me fit in with almost any traffic, and if I need to slow down for other traffic it's no big deal since things just happen more slowly. I'll start to slow down while passing the FAF or when I'm about 2 miles out, whichever happens first. Slowing down isn't usually a problem with the prop at max RPM and throttle at or near idle. I don't drop flaps until I'm visual.

I've only been asked to slow down for Citation traffic using this method

BobTurner said:

But if you expect 1/2 - 3/4 mile visibility, especially at night, the last thing you want to do is to be throttling back, pull the nose up, getting the flaps out, madly re-trimming, all while 150' off the ground with an uncertain horizon. For these conditions it's best to fly pretty much configured for landing, say 1/2 flaps and 80 kias depending on weight, and plan on landing with no configuration changes - just 1/2 flaps. Unless you have a 10,000' runway.

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Why even bother with the flaps? It's not like they do much, anyway, and any runway that has an ILS will be more than long enough for a no-flap landing for an RV...

Little bites at the apple

I flew a course intercept, hold and 6 approaches last month with a trusted instructor. Conditions were about 1500 broken. We did the hold above the layer in VFR conditions then requested a "local IFR" clearance for the approaches. I wore foggles, of course, but got a little actual IFR in the process. We get this type of conditions a lot at BTR. I realize you can't count approaches in VFR conditions for currency unless you're wearing foggles, but it occurs to me that if you are current, filing IFR and flying a few by yourself (without foggles) through a relatively thin layer more than 1200' agl is a good way to build confidence and skill before venturing out on an actual IMC day.

It's funny the little things that can get you. There was a recent software update to my Ifly GPS which I use for approach plates. The method for pulling up plates was changed. The night before in my home I had pulled up and reviewed the local plates without any problem, but in the plane with foggles on and an instructor beside me my brain seemed to lock up. I had an old book of plates and my instructor had his iPad with Foreflight, but that was a little wake up call for sure. John

I remember years ago when I had just finished my instrument. I had some actual time but not a ton. One day during winter when the Central Valley gets socked in with heavy fog I grabbed my instrument instructor and we went to an airport that was reporting 200 & 1/2. They had ILS, VOR and NDB approaches. I shot two of each starting with the NDB knowing we would be going missed until possibly the ILS approaches. Never saw a thing on the NDB or VOR approaches. On the first ILS we saw what we needed but went missed anyway, came back around for another and landed. The weather was fully and completely at ILS minimums. It was fantastic experience. If you have the rating and want to practice I can't think of a better time to do it than when the weather is a factor.

Simulators

I'm not a fan of simulators, but I do sim work for currency and then fly approaches with CFII / foggles.

On my last sim session, the instructor created some scenarios that are very difficult to get in real IMC. For instance flying an ILS, I broke-out at 1200', GS good, etc. and then back into IMC at 800' to 200'. All went well, but the scenario was a good reminder to follow the approach to landing.

A couple of techniques for holding the Localizer and going missed have been refined in the sim and are useful in flying practice approaches.

I did an approach about a year ago where we were flying in beautiful blue skies, above a layer. Entered cloud at about 600' and broke out around 300'. Funny part was I could even see the far threshold of the runway when we started down on the glideslope. The cloud bank ended about half way across the airport.

I finally decided to go and get my instrument rating. I'm tired of waiting for the PNW "marine layer" to burn off at my home field while everywhere else CAVU.

The most difficulty I've had is taking off and immediately entering a solid layer with bumps. Its happened twice now, and both times I've gotten a good case of the "leans". The only cure seems to be to force myself to relax on the controls and work on the scan.

My point is, I just don't see how you can simulate that. And, that seems like a skill that can definitely get rusty. What say you all?

Good point Ken

In my limited experience, trim is important in that case Ken. It's easy to get distracted when you're trying to turn on course, switch to departure, lean the mix, etc and you let the nose drop. You think you're climbing out of danger and you're just holding altitude or even decending if you're not careful. John