With the FAA $500 rebate program due to start in a few days, it got me thinking whether there is currently a sensible ADS-B OUT+IN solution for those of use who have 'first generation' RV-12s with the Dynon D180 + Garmin 496+ GTX327. I upgraded my RV-10, which happened to have a GTX330 and GNS480, and am now quite addicted to the nice traffic + weather info viewable in Foreflight. But my fully loaded 12, with autopilot and lighting kit barely seems to have enough alternator to handle the Van's-provided accessories, and adding another box that sucks up a few more amps will cause even more "voltage low" alerts when the RPMs are pulled back on final approach. Has anybody with a pre-Skyview configuration got this one solved?
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ADS-B for D180+GTX327 equipped RV12s?
- Thread starter dmasys
- Start date
Phantom30
Well Known Member
I don't know....I haven't had voltage/power problems in my -12 and I have "every" gizmo Garmin offers..dual screens, auto-pilot, lights, adsb in/out and upgraded gps/w antenna and transponder. Wonder what the power requirement are for the D180?
RFSchaller
Well Known Member
I added a FreeFlight XVR-978. The box fits nicely on the avionics bay deck behind my D100 second EFIS, and the control head fits in a 2 1/4" standard hole outboard of the D100. I have no issues with Power. I tapped into the Comm power and increased the comm stack fuse to 10 amps.
Replace the GTX-327 with a GTX-335 with internal GPS. Replace the GPS496 with Garmin's new Aera 660. The electrical load should not increase much. The 496 will display traffic, but not weather.
Make sure the ADS-B receiver that you buy is dual band, both 978 and 1090. When in a traffic pattern below ground station reception altitude, a single band 978 receiver will not see any traffic broadcasting on 1090. In that situation, none of the RV-12s with the SkyView systems can see each other. They are all broadcasting on 1090 but receiving on 978. The greatest collision hazard is where the most aircraft are concentrated: in a traffic pattern.
If the ADS-B transmitter and receiver and display are all made by the same company, there should not be a compatibility issue.
The FAA ADS-B approved list can be found HERE.
Compare apples to apples. The system will have an ADS-B transmitter with a 2020 GPS. The receiver should be dual band. And of course a display is required to see traffic and weather. The only problem is coming up with several aviation units.
Make sure the ADS-B receiver that you buy is dual band, both 978 and 1090. When in a traffic pattern below ground station reception altitude, a single band 978 receiver will not see any traffic broadcasting on 1090. In that situation, none of the RV-12s with the SkyView systems can see each other. They are all broadcasting on 1090 but receiving on 978. The greatest collision hazard is where the most aircraft are concentrated: in a traffic pattern.
If the ADS-B transmitter and receiver and display are all made by the same company, there should not be a compatibility issue.
The FAA ADS-B approved list can be found HERE.
Compare apples to apples. The system will have an ADS-B transmitter with a 2020 GPS. The receiver should be dual band. And of course a display is required to see traffic and weather. The only problem is coming up with several aviation units.
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Agreed, Navworx currently looks like the best fit for simplicity and economy; too bad they didn't position the ADS600-EXP to also be eligible for the $500 rebate. That would have made me take the bait. As it is, looks like just letting the market 'mature' for a couple of years will be the better option for most E-LSA's and EABs. No worrying about installation shop queue backlogs in 2019.
RFSchaller
Well Known Member
Good point on dual band, Joe. Last week I was at 8500 feet on the center line of V66 just north of Yuma. I watched a zsouthwest 737 pass 500 feet below and 1/2 mile away. I was receiving two ADS-B towers, but the 737 never showed up on my UAT. Could be his XPDR was off but unlikely.
MartySantic
Well Known Member
An item to check. Request an FAA ADS-B compliance report for one of your recent flights. On the first page of the report, under "Operational Analysis Overview" it will tell you if the FAA thinks you have Airborne UAT and/or Airborne 1090. If Airborne 1090 is checked AND your ADS-B receiver does not have 1090 receive capability, you will not receive an ADS-R transmission. This was a problem with the Navworx ADS600-EXP until a firmware revision was issued. (I am assuming the Southwest 737 had 1090 installed). AND, the FAA is still working out the kinks. You might want to report this instance to the FAA ADS-B folks.
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RFSchaller
Well Known Member
Thanks for the suggestion, Marty. I have done several ADS-B performance reports in the last year with a clean bill of health. Unfortunately all they tell you is the performance of your ADS-B Out, not the tower status or how good your ADS-B In is doing. It is my understanding that FAA has yet to establish an effective surveillance program to monitor tower performance, and they rely on pilot problem reports to detect tower failures.
BigJohn, go to Garmin's website and click on the "Compatible Devices" tab. Notice the the GPSMAP 496 is not capable of displaying FIS-B WEATHER. And chances are that it will NOT show traffic from competitor's ADS-B-IN receivers like the Navworx.
The 496 will show traffic only with the GDL-39 ADS-B-IN receiver.
Other options:
Replace the 496 with the Aera 660 to get both traffic and weather from a GDL-39.
Or use an iPad to display traffic and weather from the Navworx.
Or use an iFly 740 GPS to display traffic and weather from non-proprietary ADS-B-IN receivers like the Navworx or pingBuddy.
The iFly 740 is much bigger and brighter than the 496.
The 496 will show traffic only with the GDL-39 ADS-B-IN receiver.
Other options:
Replace the 496 with the Aera 660 to get both traffic and weather from a GDL-39.
Or use an iPad to display traffic and weather from the Navworx.
Or use an iFly 740 GPS to display traffic and weather from non-proprietary ADS-B-IN receivers like the Navworx or pingBuddy.
The iFly 740 is much bigger and brighter than the 496.
DaleB
Well Known Member
Yep. The 496 is pretty limited, which is really not surprising considering its age. I looked at replacing mine with a 696 or a new Aera 660, but their failure / refusal to support anything other than the GDL 39 (which won't talk to anything else) convinced me otherwise. For now I'm using an Android tablet and Stratux for ADS-B IN, and if I were buying an OUT setup today it would be from Navworx. I'm not, though... just wondering what the next year or so will bring.
Whew! The options and combinations of options are mind boggling. I think at this point I would gravitate towards the Navworx, as long as it will feed my iPad with ForeFlight. And just leave the ancient 496 in the panel just to provide GPS steering to the autopilot.
However, I don't understand post #7. Does ForeFlight work with the Navworx box or not?
However, I don't understand post #7. Does ForeFlight work with the Navworx box or not?
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Jesse
Well Known Member
What does "extra characters" mean?
Jesse
Well Known Member
A post has to contain at least 10 characters. "It does." is only 8.
Got a definitive answer from Navworx today. See below:
Question 1: If I installed your experimental system in my RV would it interface with the G496 to display weather and traffic?
You will be able to display traffic only on the G496. No weather due to Garmin's proprietary protocol.
Question 2: Also in the RV, would it wi-fi to my iPad and show weather and traffic on my ForeFlight?
Yes.
Question 1: If I installed your experimental system in my RV would it interface with the G496 to display weather and traffic?
You will be able to display traffic only on the G496. No weather due to Garmin's proprietary protocol.
Question 2: Also in the RV, would it wi-fi to my iPad and show weather and traffic on my ForeFlight?
Yes.
jsharkey
Well Known Member
RV6 Options with GTX327 D100 & Garmin 496
This is a great set up and is neatly installed. Are there any straight forward options for moving forward with ADS-B out?
Does the GTX345 use the same tray, connectors and antenna as the GTX327?
Can it take altitude data from the D100 like the GTX327 does?
From what I have read so far the Garman 496 can't provide the GPS input - but it does provide great input to the D100.
And then options for ADS-B in?
I'll read the other posts in more detail but just wondered if others with the same set up have already found the answer.
Jim Sharkey
This is a great set up and is neatly installed. Are there any straight forward options for moving forward with ADS-B out?
Does the GTX345 use the same tray, connectors and antenna as the GTX327?
Can it take altitude data from the D100 like the GTX327 does?
From what I have read so far the Garman 496 can't provide the GPS input - but it does provide great input to the D100.
And then options for ADS-B in?
I'll read the other posts in more detail but just wondered if others with the same set up have already found the answer.
Jim Sharkey
jliltd
Well Known Member
What setup is neatly installed?
If you're all set up with your "in" then just add a Freeflight RANGR Lite "out" ($1995) and you will be 100% 2020 compliant. Since it's compatible with Mode C no transponder change required. The GTX 327 works best here and the Freeflight has a built-in digital encoder. But Freeflight UAT also works with legacy grey code transponders and encoders through "sniffing".
$2K beats $4.5K anyday.
Jim
If you're all set up with your "in" then just add a Freeflight RANGR Lite "out" ($1995) and you will be 100% 2020 compliant. Since it's compatible with Mode C no transponder change required. The GTX 327 works best here and the Freeflight has a built-in digital encoder. But Freeflight UAT also works with legacy grey code transponders and encoders through "sniffing".
$2K beats $4.5K anyday.
Jim
jsharkey
Well Known Member
The current D100, GTX327 and Garman 496 is neatly installed and easy to use. Looking to upgrade with minimal disruption. It's pretty much per the original RV12 set up. Should have made clearer in the text.
JimS
GTX 345 All-In-One ADS-B In/Out Transponder
Hello Jim,
The GTX 345 is the same height and width as the GTX 327, but is 1.32" longer.
The GTX 345 should be able to use the same pressure altitude source that you are using with your existing Garmin transponder, but there is also an option for a built in pressure sensor that only requires you connect the static line to the back of the rack. When removing the GTX 345 from the rack, the pressure sensor remains on the back plate still connected to the static line.
The GTX 345 should also be able to use your existing transponder antenna. More information on antennas in this posting. It is important to note that the GTX 345 can both transmit and receive ADS-B In/Out on the same antenna.
You may also order the GTX 345 with a built-in GPS receiver that only requires an external WAAS GPS antenna (supplied) to complete the installation and be an all-in-one ADS-B In/Out solution.
The compatible ADS-B traffic and weather display devices that will interface with the GTX 345 on both wired and wireless connections are described in this posting and this thread. Tablets and phones using Garmin Pilot or Foreflight and GNS/GTN units may also be used.
You are probably happy with your 496, but if you install a GTX 345, you will certainly want to consider taking advantage of the free traffic and weather it can provide, and now would be a good time to consider upgrading to an Aera 660 with the $100 holiday rebate in effect. Since the Aera 660 has two serial ports instead of the one your 496 has, you can easily connect the traffic/weather datalink to the GTX 345 while still performing all the other interface functions currently provided by your 496.
Every GTX 345 comes standard with built-in attitude sensors, which allows you to take full advantage of the 3D Vision page on the Aera 660 (shown below).
Let us know if you have additional questions. We appreciate this is a big decision and are happy to help any way we can.
Thanks,
Steve
Hello Jim,
The GTX 345 is the same height and width as the GTX 327, but is 1.32" longer.
The GTX 345 should be able to use the same pressure altitude source that you are using with your existing Garmin transponder, but there is also an option for a built in pressure sensor that only requires you connect the static line to the back of the rack. When removing the GTX 345 from the rack, the pressure sensor remains on the back plate still connected to the static line.
The GTX 345 should also be able to use your existing transponder antenna. More information on antennas in this posting. It is important to note that the GTX 345 can both transmit and receive ADS-B In/Out on the same antenna.
You may also order the GTX 345 with a built-in GPS receiver that only requires an external WAAS GPS antenna (supplied) to complete the installation and be an all-in-one ADS-B In/Out solution.
The compatible ADS-B traffic and weather display devices that will interface with the GTX 345 on both wired and wireless connections are described in this posting and this thread. Tablets and phones using Garmin Pilot or Foreflight and GNS/GTN units may also be used.
You are probably happy with your 496, but if you install a GTX 345, you will certainly want to consider taking advantage of the free traffic and weather it can provide, and now would be a good time to consider upgrading to an Aera 660 with the $100 holiday rebate in effect. Since the Aera 660 has two serial ports instead of the one your 496 has, you can easily connect the traffic/weather datalink to the GTX 345 while still performing all the other interface functions currently provided by your 496.
Every GTX 345 comes standard with built-in attitude sensors, which allows you to take full advantage of the 3D Vision page on the Aera 660 (shown below).
Let us know if you have additional questions. We appreciate this is a big decision and are happy to help any way we can.
Thanks,
Steve
erich weaver
Well Known Member
The website indicates the Rangr Lite is $3K, not $2K
Erich
Erich
Walt
Well Known Member
Freeflight units require a RS232 serial altitude input, they can "sniff" the squawk code, but not the altitude. When connected to a 327 the 'functions' (on/stby/alt etc.) and squawk code are handled automatically via the 232 connection. So bottom line is you must have encoder (or EFIS) to provide serial data.
Steve
I have the same question for two planes. One is the RV 12 with VAN's Garmin mount behind the panel, and one uses a Gizmo mount that mounts on the panel surface.
If I move to the AERA 660, will a Gizmo mount fit in the same footprint as an existing surface panel mount Gizmo used for the 396?
Also, how different is the wiring from the 396 to the Aera 660? I'm assuming that will need to be replaced for the new unit.
Thanks for any information you have on this.
I have the same question for two planes. One is the RV 12 with VAN's Garmin mount behind the panel, and one uses a Gizmo mount that mounts on the panel surface.
If I move to the AERA 660, will a Gizmo mount fit in the same footprint as an existing surface panel mount Gizmo used for the 396?
Also, how different is the wiring from the 396 to the Aera 660? I'm assuming that will need to be replaced for the new unit.
Thanks for any information you have on this.
I have made a spread sheet containing ADS-B hardware and street prices.
Hello Steve,
According to AirGizmos, "If you are upgrading from an older Garmin GPS, you will be happy to know that we have designed the aera 660 Panel Dock to fit the same opening as the 196,296,396,496 Panel Dock, and uses the same hole layout for mounting.".
We have standardized our bare wire wiring colors for years, and for both the 396/496 and the aera 660 black is ground, red is power, blue is RS-232 #1 transmit, and yellow is RS-232 #1 receive. The aera 660 has an additional serial port #2 that the 396/496 doesn't have and those transmit/receive wire colors are orange/purple. This information is, of course, in the Aera 660 manual.
I created this new variant of the diagram shown in a previous post that has the GTX 345 interface wired to RS-232 #2 on the Aera 660. With this wiring, you can continue to use the Blue/Yellow wires on RS-232 #1 for whatever you were previously using them for with your 396.
If you have specific wiring questions, it is probably best to email us at the address below since it is so much more effective to share data via email than through a forum where we have to post pictures somewhere to get them to show up.
Thanks for your interest in our ADS-B In/Out products,
Steve
jsharkey
Well Known Member
Many thanks Steve
Jim Sharkey
Jim Sharkey
Hello Jim,
The GTX 345 is the same height and width as the GTX 327, but is 1.32" longer.
The GTX 345 should be able to use the same pressure altitude source that you are using with your existing Garmin transponder, but there is also an option for a built in pressure sensor that only requires you connect the static line to the back of the rack. When removing the GTX 345 from the rack, the pressure sensor remains on the back plate still connected to the static line.
The GTX 345 should also be able to use your existing transponder antenna. More information on antennas in this posting. It is important to note that the GTX 345 can both transmit and receive ADS-B In/Out on the same antenna.
You may also order the GTX 345 with a built-in GPS receiver that only requires an external WAAS GPS antenna (supplied) to complete the installation and be an all-in-one ADS-B In/Out solution.
The compatible ADS-B traffic and weather display devices that will interface with the GTX 345 on both wired and wireless connections are described in this posting and this thread. Tablets and phones using Garmin Pilot or Foreflight and GNS/GTN units may also be used.
You are probably happy with your 496, but if you install a GTX 345, you will certainly want to consider taking advantage of the free traffic and weather it can provide, and now would be a good time to consider upgrading to an Aera 660 with the $100 holiday rebate in effect. Since the Aera 660 has two serial ports instead of the one your 496 has, you can easily connect the traffic/weather datalink to the GTX 345 while still performing all the other interface functions currently provided by your 496.
Every GTX 345 comes standard with built-in attitude sensors, which allows you to take full advantage of the 3D Vision page on the Aera 660 (shown below).
Let us know if you have additional questions. We appreciate this is a big decision and are happy to help any way we can.
Thanks,
Steve
