What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Dimpling with DRDT2

birddog486

Well Known Member
I'm using the DRDT2 and I'm curious if others experience this very small gap around the edge of the rivets as if the dimple is maybe to deep or the shape of the die has something to do with it.

After dimpling I have witness marks from the dies on both sides and using a razor shows the top of the rivet is flush with the skin, also I've tried using a very soft preload or enough I thought I would break the handle off but that doesn't change the shape of the dimple.

I've used the reflection test and the dimples seem to leave the surrounding skin very flat but I can slip a piece of paper under the edge of the rivet a couple thousandths before and after I set them.

I'll try to attach a pic but I'm not sure if it'll show.

14ncqo5.jpg
 
Last edited:
I should have mentioned I'm using cleaveland dies and have several sets and many sizes and they all produce the same results. The reflection looks strange in the pic because of the angle, there is no noticeable skin deformation beyond the reflection.

The pic is zoomed in close trying to show the edge of the rivet. I cant catch a nail on the edge though.

I was able to get a clearer picture and replaced the one in the first post.
 
Last edited:
Pic

I am a newbie at this but thT looks like a dimple from tank dies or substructure dies

If you could see a part number on the die you could verify they are not one of these thpe.. you want to use regualr dies, not tank dies or substructure dies.
Also when you put a straight edge up to it., you shouldnt see light above the rivet.
 
18ce9201-b551-4bfe-8a3f-5d23a50b1a37_zpsgge2txoh.jpg



I like to see a witness mark on the surface for the die, perhaps try increasing the closure, 1/4 turn at a time?
 
The scrap sheet is .025 I have three sets of standard 3/32 Cleaveland dies and all three sets dimple like this. I have the DRDT2 screwed to the bench and I've gone from a light preload to setting it so tight I was afraid the handle would break and everywhere in between with no difference in the dimple.

I'm guessing I should contact Cleaveland about this. I've bought all three sets since November (I modified one set and another is in a holder for the rivet gun)

All the riveted pieces are fairly smooth and have minimal reflection around the rivets but I'm moving along fairly fast and figure before I'm done building I should probably have at least one perfect rivet.

The fuselage is scheduled to show up in about 5 weeks
 
Me too

have same issue on 2 sets
both Cleveland!
purchased 2nd set to compare and was thinking if 2 sets purchased 6 month a part are same it must be normal

I guess not!!

Can some one post nice clear picture how it should look
Thank you
 
Last edited:
Have you tried using a squeezer instead of the DRDT-2 to see if you get the same results?

I have Avery dies and use the Avery squeezer, DRDT-2 and pneumatic squeezer and have good results with all 3.
 
Borrow a C Frame and try it with a reasonably lightweight steel hammer, you will probably see a nice difference. The sound will tell you. Cleveland dies are very good.

Russell
 
I've used the cleaveland hand squeezer and my pneumatic squeezer mostly for dimpling ribs and interior parts and pieces so I'm not sure if those are better dimples. I never gave it much thought but I'm thinking now there must be an issue with the dies.

I'm going to find a local builder an try these dies in a c-frame to confirm.
 
Last edited:
After seeing this thread I took a look at the rivets in my finished rudder, which I did with the DRDT2 and the Cleaveland dies, and they look about the same as the ones in the original post. I have a C-Frame as well so I decided to try a test of my own.

Here is a rivet sitting in a dimple made by the DRDT2 at the same pressure I just used to dimple both of my horizontal stabilizer skins:
a0jnBoZmk5uM7JNuEbDuCdZtRpxB8TxcZ21XTQ9J21CIhgQ6J89oMlO4zyj4rjCmEsM-EL3rQOtDRa6fRxDyUJDJZGJOtEsHg78FjcPlLZwkCH-ThCxGzh1L3RjUj1Y88uyxS2atevUmZqqRoVV2SA4OJL6pJlB3nOPOczaeWCt_cfFij-b3TmJAyKEsaBL3DMZyRS5fvNbMe5o9nmtWlZbl7Z_-AE-jQ6tjDMFB4u1viNy_IqD8rVi4CM_-hBfq-9IxyE-CLiyARJL9kXv_UvDx8b2V2-vMvWypFGwyRICjWQ5ebqsTkzrxxzoq-gVUjdz8ax9yABk3kv5waUL3ALbYoEMSKjC1vRQQLjJbyKwB-z_UZr-uW6ThEVsxB5f3wjJyUnFU5f1CBZt8Cp8eaLuIYyQENHyJz-Sj5phaZYEylvJCwQ_02OfsfCXfKFdet7YBlNP2LLrL6drq45zy_g2zMoGPn-F1fgE0G_MCjXEdTFCXsuIUsQCX_004tTim-OHIMwsWHg5x0ZdPd1UMNCLqUV06EnAZWAOKVM-TX644vpfBTZgWB-BDFiihGOsBNmTMc6aVx7lMOvcndWCa8AF0H69YL4ujjwLKpCkmXnrOJLHvQkb50_pA=w600-h1408-no




And here is a rivet sitting in a dimple made by the C-Frame and a .5 pound rubber mallet that I whacked it with a couple times:
a0Q8BEbK_aVRosAR4-HATv3PpuRRgjMkgJSGBrghtLBC7fo4r1qcXXGHkSb3wMwxo6HYT445zFwKPSM8RIc85iLytbPttPv9WT_KDQaXsKsYn_rNgW_kQcEynmoKrLqlr02GZnl5XYBQ_jabsZ3cglvgrRfm-0Akvdet9N4NGnjyfLyn4eDPKRiNyqGGjxG6tObwDZIBecMBO-RYxZoFvSgsYAXjf8AMvARjNArQGh-gg--rkClyFXTUPU7Pjkp8YE7YL95Dso3X4pZbMeau62AzgAjbOGY7dk8vovYllG-o1hIwibG31SbwXYeFT0EScKNBu7sQRSVEpTkmjEcf-8fz1yve7ZefpKUkdCZZa55xWo2rwFPEZtEJnFVKEDQgCTVABLSUEbWm8HoG4flY-i41J3eFP7LqhGY0cUr0YbAIO83pCt1rzQXAYpo5JPyMp-tzz6AIBrqz0We3IKJ-Gd37VREIRfb8OKZqAxa_WMqfGB6Fu_hyW9vKvZe4xZEWIc8sjIY3q8DlPeJs79Nrjmhmj-LxRhtO7PKi_iF-_J4IMY5Rg9FqF_DkuQuB1_kxBMeTmaLanyTr_K5NRQ2eAq3AzrSbAyFV52dUQ8htqHESxlEEwuhU2zQB=w600-h1408-no


I don't really see much of a difference between the two rivets, however I've used the DRDT2 exclusively on my build so far so I haven't really learned how hard to hit the C-Frame to make the perfect dimple. So just to be sure, I decided to grab a heavier steel hammer (20oz) and hit it pretty hard 4 or 5 more times. I think the rivet MIGHT look a little better, but not enough to make me want to beat up the skins that much every time I need to dimple it.

JGjg9QqDe6kOc9H3hMiIop7Q-5Abz7zbAH8FID6xpTy-cP3grJwGYK1zod2jaq8OEp_v1_BE6J5WY1JYBUkyqjgOXrAgEwQb4h5IMR_zhlBfmCfpuB_IEp5aIxWYHnAdgwN6n1NfAnXmrLIkeqV4trEz9SBIb0mKjuJokK8vGSS5_ZUOXh2DcINiDG7ExfH8uLFuRMFQBd0EF880OkR63XXJ2lDhKcPvVBd5LZ-ovCN9WVUq6gDDY45Mrw83sGTzNTfukD7fEFl-ual775tGqtXuW06h_Mzb54sn-Eu3A9UcR9IEsBDuo3jD9o9SpL2sG54QQERoppnnFQtDtSkanYriNyqRLB4fSzNG9S7sdbyjnhhRUupB5C8ZgTidWiJCBX9y3xdPlE8YLh59skRbO1gseBOMXU4dh16VbRkSHgs52cgM6ANE4c3hmrCqP-I0ktOtvih2zniiCaEOEXrjX_QklYwPgAwZD6QMOyJCduzaaKLMuE0g22xynNUolari-AwoTA61PrAW9pXzvzxgo3rY1p5aHERF0MvOPxnb8xR8ipJrV4EO2jQFeBH3chKZkLnDEJHzHdpShw_r8hcvYnTv_CnEorGNHRJwNFpyKtSnsv459a23YYVnJB9RUFaM_wP2W9-cSiFp2bLkD9CEDrh_uvfZFxYTGNN6Dy1745RFeg=w600-h1408-no


Again, I haven't really used the C-Frame all that much so if others who have used the C-Frame extensively have rivets that look better than what I just did, then I will blame mine on user error :)
 
Last edited:
1 Turn Pre-load

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=286707&postcount=3 is a link to a post (with photos) I made back in 2009 on this subject. Basically I found that using 1 turn of preload on the DRDT-2 gave excellent results.


After seeing this thread I took a look at the rivets in my finished rudder, which I did with the DRDT2 and the Cleaveland dies, and they look about the same as the ones in the original post. I have a C-Frame as well so I decided to try a test of my own.

Here is a rivet sitting in a dimple made by the DRDT2 at the same pressure I just used to dimple both of my horizontal stabilizer skins:
n28Hz9cyj4PI6ctm8yuZjAe9M4IE9989lVaDvfH45fql4wGXRzWLaBlIgoPhruf5CwP-lL6Qo09Ua8GaiHMQZbsjwVkiCD_mhcFo1R9qx293AZB7se5H0QWNwXvjF5lNgASO091-_kSA9vYTBMZ51bRSZq0X4aVA2025_DEISfEzCVZB3ShYC6dOggX4VaY5f3MRlDoglyuhU95J-a5YBPixWIZ7a4JnbLzzRtnNgtS7YFdvAVB2APxgx7tany9R-jfjlk3YvjveX3ml9B0RmJXnrL99Pxue6SCGmhdTNTa6csxVBcdeoFR3N2BAYNFq8xdbAsj457JovJkPem68-r9EMwsr4pcg1C3TR3bXKr32hCmpo7iKD88iSZSeFlvvaZK5qtpWr1PZ0_Lqx0x2VHF-NU7HTjuF6ywt91WAPdvH860MqliTbyrBxsyVC7Fy1b75J_6bqsiYD4o_Q2udKPlrvGhfoWRe73ZRrf-sHlxHH1Egg7wvBU-Gjz6j6e_6wvn-n0IBBXi-K14HDq8vuXE_bnXKWvnU7CT919GuuetZc1JiTid45VaoEYZFw-w_9c5nrDZpje3vQAPDXNLATZn7EgZYZSwRy6G_KZgoMKh70mxbX1sT=w600-h1408-no


And here is a rivet sitting in a dimple made by the C-Frame and a .5 pound rubber mallet that I whacked it with a couple times:
0omTEXQ7WHsY-uRZogm8_OAR0-joTeg6uIBKBlKe9L4G624fLg3OJh94tajIwgsLPwhuNSBLcsteDkrT2Zvy18bAyVdoh2fL0kyibhapFazjjF3eXhUDDeIEGzld3ErbbUGGgdYqEgCLO-Pk2SGiH4-Xnhia-aEV4SY845cvmOTgMWUDMIUZ9vMwYgF4Ff_K7fhAznBFxv3-tDx6rAVV6fGsb2bPJBPXFev39N1CZv-ybdt77FkgGr4SBYoqrF02wtu_1Yn6jWiXdNySCuOPlxzk7V7JoGppSF0dmWrx8VgcRXD_XJirZMB9BiNrNjL1-vT21pPM1fnUsXcnKeipikfbd6i_o7pO7C9b_No48qjhZW-SRprGe3CGI8lXvQlPVz8uNpj-ELwBfbm5uTa5ENmvnNeW5RIX8x-25yyiVUfLpYQDSfe9b0trWpICY7iCESQWJ4dV6B5t00Q_h-jvlY6EqTGgZRsV-XHlH9aQfJAt3o5pnBhRmHxceeP640_DGlm0fFoG1OWjduq4VEfdSKIHrfK8ZnfKKJ2LBmWAi_J-GC3am574IEkb6vQafhbdJYUvJ04pAgwQN71RTN86l5e5cqIumzMw3lYPXkJGpgfemDlDKZ10=w600-h1408-no


I don't really see much of a difference between the two rivets, however I've used the DRDT2 exclusively on my build so far so I haven't really learned how hard to hit the C-Frame to make the perfect dimple. So just to be sure, I decided to grab a heavier steel hammer (20oz) and hit it pretty hard 4 or 5 more times. I think the rivet MIGHT look a little better, but not enough to make me want to beat up the skins that much every time I need to dimple it.

rT28qsK1MjZTYRFa7pQDr1lL81kEQRrHhbrOoSd53q8Rh6mk9J5EbwGj6NudYcPri0RX9a5348hSCzDeooE4A1AQdo_jtVVnlEf51fYNgPoNB47MN7CwdyXXjsnFT4sIgsvC1rvAnH3hsiI7vhiqJmDnGmNkRx3dQKAQb6VBDECrg8v7IbwVuWXR57O0lqqau0Id7Aa30sFpUdwVzO4wqgTgfLCOOqgBw6FLJMy3_M1HwHbKEdENZg138nYqTiBf91zPmLEFjy3vGPogaJiRsb-cYB8_x72y4cCG7al3estdNF3TMB4Bimei-UeUcEsHc9MsKyZ8WVzgEMTk6Otcjw7dal2E1VGjCutpQP-8xjYoUHq8mur7C21hjSElDxJ7TBW8IITp6j4WTVIKaSTuwhPnUrHwIqbbwx-IRqUuE_SGGCnRejibZEu6uXP-7Zoi1S7NTG-ZmRb2vYvEx6iwHdgfxnKmjQ8Ui73j7TIuYHTeEoeqAdByq4B8SxoxYvj5yipm6JopabFDFRGgKs2NBP9uQdWeDqh7gHR6UFPqMa4Pxel9iQPpjLeGEmFxbbBohY3dRi6NwgpdWALSsV1U_dlqaCDcz7MrvHO7b6xcNuCwa1WI-vua=w600-h1408-no


Again, I haven't really used the C-Frame all that much so if others who have used the C-Frame extensively have rivets that look better than what I just did, then I will blame mine on user error :)
 
In my experience using a rubber mallet or other soft type hammers wont produce a clean crisp dimple as the cushion effect is too great. As a first time builder and starting on the HS I used a soft hammer for dimpling, I thought they looked fine until an experienced builder pointed out the very slightly rolled edges of the dimples and suggested I use a hard steel hammer. The difference is noticeable and I was pleased he set me straight.
I use a small steel hammer, hold the pin in the C frame and 2 firm but not too hard taps, you will feel the dimple form and a 3rd tap will ring and it is done... There is potential obviously to cause damage to the aluminum with excessive force.
 
Tim,
Both those dimples just don't look right. Are you sure you have the correct dies? When the DRD2 is set right the frame should flex some when dimpling. But they both look off, that is why I'm questioning the dies.
 
I am using Cleaveland dies that say CAT426-3 on the side of them so they are the right dies for the rivets. I have some older dimple dies from another builder that I did a quick comparison with on the DRDT2. I set the DRDT2 so that it was a 1/4 turn past where the dies are touching when the ram is fully extended, like the instructions say to do which does cause the frame to flex a little when dimpling. The rivet definitely fits better into the dimple made with the older die....

JvF1HHQ7Y_wxdc3VHdycBgVCT94gKbugdomsJeeLaZ55q4H0e4tLc308nCA91_bUSULuj_4nWVwEyIh4cAE7fD7T9GmVN0A_smQl1yDHMiGtr7ibj1H4IyfMgOFRLqGUaD_OnMl3E_Ois6kTSFKqBWeAsCv1KQHbYcB2eOuvKSq7FGBgC55sINBUrJaoC0wqStMgeKxN2LDPdasBL7QLc3aNUwOrCYrR_YshORQ-C3r1FuibQRWs0QpyQzF3SqeNQKFltuK36YJ6ljlwlDpxeYxI9p4gFXgE8brLYDi6R7PaKGO0BUND5X0dtNlgjiagC0Tu0eHzo-n9BLE3lzn3m5HpF2kkKdffJSLEEdUmVvqvYisiPuiNsWOZUrEsYsZtpYKE5a0Ww7OpqG_DdB00H18qUiD1s1oEr73DikS_qhReU6LbNkrZ5e7R9S1mhmISHn2yf1nzNEqoJsdKH567ySU1Qnbo5oab2EthGBDbcC7UW5URoBTOXwqXCpf2BHOUpS-jfqdUU_60SSCsVD1P26gSswlG57KBPAR8JTxdrbivFgVCp2_dg5lTiKes0y_1r73xj7v3Uz2L7CsMMcd4efkbNzZZH8y_6x79u8TU8bmyDPdz017kHgzG=w600-h1408-no


I even tried putting the new dies into the C-Frame and hammering the heck out of it to see if I could get the rivet to sit in the dimple as well as it does with the older dies but no luck.
 
I met with an A&P IA thats been building airplanes for almost 50 years and he didn't see any cause for concern with the rivets and the slight gap around the head. He has multiple dimple dies, some produced a dimple like the cleaveland dies and others didn't have the slight gap at the edge. He dimpled with my cleaveland dies in his squeezer and a c-frame and visually they looked the same.

I'm waiting for a new set of dies from a different vendor to show up so I can compare on my DRDT2
 
I met with an A&P IA thats been building airplanes for almost 50 years and he didn't see any cause for concern with the rivets and the slight gap around the head. He has multiple dimple dies, some produced a dimple like the cleaveland dies and others didn't have the slight gap at the edge. He dimpled with my cleaveland dies in his squeezer and a c-frame and visually they looked the same.

I'm very glad to hear that birddog since my dimples and rivets seem to look the same. I originally posted in this thread thinking I would be able to reassure you that everything was ok but I've been freaking out about my work ever since some concern was raised about the pictures I posted. That's pretty typical for me though, I start to feel like I know how to do a simple task and then I read a post on these forums that makes me question everything I know and nearly sends me into a panic attack.
 
Back
Top