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Post Your Improved OSH Arrival Ideas Here...

Yes, our desire is to spread out the arrivals, but over more days, not longer geography.

Remember I?ve said everyone is still working their responsible areas. It?s not all worked out yet, but one of the sidetracks being worked is to figure out how to incent us pilots to spread out our arrival days. Jack and team are working to figure out how to have the field opened up earlier than Friday and have all of the necessary support infrastructure in place, such as food, showers, etc. Financial incentives are part of those discussions as well, such as free camping.

There may be some incentives for those who arrive later in the week as well. Let?s not start guessing, but be patient and know it is being worked on.
I would say the reactions are based upon your posts and the links showing that the proposal was addressing creating longer geography. That indicates to the uninitiated there is an emphasis in doing that. Comments addressing what was being done at the EAA were eluding to the idea that the committee had made their recommendations and it was time to wait and see what the bosses (FAA) do with it.

BTW, the committee hasn?t just submitted a proposal and gone home. This was again reviewed at Safety Council (I am a member there as well), and the BOD meeting last week. I?m sure working sessions will continue, as no doubt there will probably be questions from the FAA team, and we still have to figure out a large part of the communication and education process to our members and the pilot community.

Still waiting for someone to start the thread regarding what we as a pilot community can do. 😀
Ok, good deal. EAA is going to incentivize coming earlier. Hopefully addressing food, camping, hygiene for the populous will help. It just seems this could have been emphasized in the proposal instead of extension of the cue.

Other than methods for information dissemination and education, what is still on the table for discussion in these working sessions? Example. Has anything been discussed about how to better resolve the soft field taxi problem? This could be a contributor to the clogged system. Our private grass strip just recieved a mail flyer from some company that installs systems for such a purpose. Could the EAA not look into installing such a system on the grassy taxi areas that will allow even a C135 to taxi onto the grass without sinking into the mud?


As for pointing out those who were part of the problem, especially attitudinally, I don?t believe in doing that here or in my columns. However, I?d be willing to bet some of you know who they were and you might consider saying something in private.
This I don't get. Sorry, but I see this in every column. It is not a matter of naming names. It is, as is in your columns, a matter of pointing out what the error is, where the error was made, how it was made, by whom (NOT individual names), and most importantly, WHY the error was made. Indeed sir, that is in your columns. I am sure you are thinking in terms of those individual pilots who contributed to the problems by not following the procedures while in the cue. Although they indeed were contributors, I am not asking for naming names of such individuals. Rather, many on this thread have pointed out the errors made by ATC. The response then was to attempt to move the conversation away from that and discuss what we as pilots can do. If ATC was a primary contributor to the problems this year then discussions on how ATC should address the errors should be out in the open. This was the motivation for my reference.
 
Still waiting for someone to start the thread regarding what we as a pilot community can do.

Vic, perhaps you could start that thread and offer some examples.

In the meantime, it's not reasonable to complain without also offering solutions, which is the basic premise of this thread. I'll take the challenge.

1. Want to encourage pilots to arrive later in the week? Make it possible to reliably arrive in the evening, after the airshow. And give those arrivals an incentive; no fees that day (camping or admission) for post-airshow arrivals.

2. Move all group arrivals to Friday, or to Monday as the opening act of the airshow, no exceptions. Monday would be best. To make Monday politically acceptable to the type clubs, offer the carrots: an opportunity to be a feature attraction (a bigger deal than anyone will admit), cleared airspace, and expedited ground handling. And remember, anyone who wishes to arrive earlier can still do so, on their own like everyone else.

3. Add outlying airport transportation and facilities information to the notam. There is no extra distribution cost. Right now, for example, the Fond Du Lac notam page says only "Camping and showers are available. Scheduled transportation is available to/from Oshkosh". Ok, how about food access, on-site transportation, and local transportation. What is the actual bus schedule to OSH?

I've heard camping at Fond Du Lac is ok. Why not make it better if we want folks to go there without hesitation. For example, if Fond du Lac could see a significant uptick in business return, would they build a gazebo like the one at HBC?

4. New policy...stop accommodating the idiots. If someone obviously isn't following a defined procedure, get him on the ground safely, but then make sure he gets singled out, right then, in public. You know, a black Suburban with FAA all over it follows him to his parking space, hands him a paper that says "Report to the FAA pavilion at XX time", and simply drives away. Social pressure is the really powerful tool here. Nobody wants to be "that guy", and the stories will spread, at the convention and back home. At the interview, only violate the most egregious cases, or the no-shows. The rest just get positive counseling, with maybe a wee bit of Special High Intensity Training...no violation, no record, no repercussions for any of the parties.

5. Seriously improve the taxi paths from both runways. The south side of 9-27 needs immediate attention, preferably a new taxiway. A south turn off into the grass or taxiway provides two "clear the runway" options, and the south side does not require a runway crossing to get to parking. We spend a huge amount of money in Winnebago County every year. They can afford the taxiway.

6. To allow faster runway clearing, pave large radius "turnoff aprons" at all the runway exits. Repave the old P1-P3 center taxiway and extend it to P4.

7. Provide Chapters with "flying into Oshkosh" video presentations, and reproducible handouts. Both can be done via the net at little cost. The goal should not be a repeat of the notam. It should be tailored as an "insider information" source (how to get inbound traffic info well outside the OSH area, Fond Du Lac camping and transportation, available hotels near outlying airports, etc). All that prevents folks from going elsewhere when needed is fear of the unknown...where to sleep, eat, etc. Show them them the alternatives, rather than just tell them.

8. Rekindle a focus on maximizing runway utilization. At the 2018 convention, someone made a decision to meter arrivals to prevent the runway furballs of previous years. Anyone watching arrivals knows they simply went too far. We can land two at a time, and have done so for a great many years. It doesn't really require a veteran OSH controller, although it helps. It requires pilot skill, and the power to make that happen is again found in peer pressure. The new public relations campaign should be two-pronged: "Train For The Big Show" and "Be A Pro, Or Don't Go".

9. Put arrival delay information into the ADS-B broadcast and XM weather. Better yet, make it an accurate 10-scale for arrival saturation, 1 being empty skies, and 10 being fully saturated, aircraft being turned away.

10. Note none of these things requires more checkpoints, more frequencies, longer procedure paths, or more controller staffing. Simplicity always wins out over complication. Overall, the goals should be to simplify, and increase competence on all sides.

9-27.jpg


18-36.jpg
 
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Use Military VFR in lieu of FAR 91, RNP Arrival

These options may have already been discussed, if so, forgive the redundancy...but to continue Dan's list (at the risk of possibly violating his baseline premise of not make a procedural change):

11. Raise minimum VFR requirement in the terminal area from 1000' and 3SM, to 1500 and 3. Allows conduct of VFR operations in the terminal area while maintaining VFR cloud clearances.

12. Design "RNAV arrival" procedures using GPS for aircraft so equipped. Design procedures to accommodate arrival from multiple quadrants (if practical). Procedures designed (Required Navigation Performance [RNP] 1NM) to accommodate basic VFR GPS capability, including portable devices.

Fly safe,

Vac
 
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Where's the data?

If there's always parking for homebuilts, then the lower number of homebuilts back in the day is irrelevant. It's purely the total number of a/c in the arrival operation that's the issue.

I confess; I haven't been to OSH (I refuse to call it 'airventure') in more than a decade. But my feeble memory says that when I attended regularly, there were closer to 12K planes attending. I know there were years when the north 40 was at capacity, and the field was full all the way to the fence on the south end of 18/36. I obviously could be wrong, but where are the numbers? I hear that numbers have increased, but the person telling us that says he can't remember the prior numbers. If the numbers are available, show us, year by year, and if available, day by day for each year. Let the data drive the solution, and the place to start is with the numbers.

If we had the same (or higher) number of a/c back before the economic crash, and minimal issues, then the number of a/c isn't the issue. That begs the question: what changed?

Charlie
 
Separate post, as it's not directly aimed at the RV community. However, it would improve things for the RV community and all similar aircraft.

We talk about maximizing use of the available concrete, because no more runways are available. It's not entirely true.

The least hassle, most fun Oshkosh arrival is via what is currently called the "Ultralight and Rotorcraft Arrival". It's on page 19 of the most recent notam. In short, you fly up Hwy 41 at 300 ft AGL, turn right to follow a cleared corridor across Camp Scholler, then turn right, descend, and touch down. Landing to the north is similar, but across open fields. There are no controllers. The only checkpoints are a billboard and a barn. Sometimes there might be a paddle man at the threshold to wave you off if the runway is occupied.

Prior to the creation of Light Sport (and the massacre of two-place ultralights), the Red Barn strip was a beehive of fun. In recent years the EAA has found themselves trying to promote activity there. So let's put it to use.

1. Require any aircraft which can't maintain 90 knots on the Waupon/Ripon/Fisk path to instead use a revised Lightplane approach to the Red Barn strip.

2. Make a serious investment in revising the Red Barn strip as required to accommodate additional traffic. It's way cheaper to rework a grass strip and parking, as compared to anything paved.

Result? Far fewer 60 and 70 knot flyers screwing up the works on the primary paths, and EAA reawakens overall activity in lighter aviation....meaning anything Light Sport and a bit more. The whole area gains traffic again, good for everyone, vendors included.
 
We as pilots must realize that no procedure will ever cover all of the possible scenarios that will present themselves. Holding patterns completely full and both runways were closed when I showed up at Ripon. I had plenty of fuel to last another 120 minutes, but why get into the fur ball? I landed at Fon du Lac and called a ride.

Regardless of what anyone says, Oshkosh is not a mission critical flight. If it is for you then call an airline or drive a car.

I?m sure procedure changes will help, but let?s not forget what our outcome must be ? a safe landing ? ANYWHERE.
 
All I will add to this discussion is that it's a start. The fact that everyone involved in this realizes how close we came to disaster last year is encouraging.
 
We as pilots must realize that no procedure will ever cover all of the possible scenarios that will present themselves. Holding patterns completely full and both runways were closed when I showed up at Ripon. I had plenty of fuel to last another 120 minutes, but why get into the fur ball? I landed at Fon du Lac and called a ride.

Regardless of what anyone says, Oshkosh is not a mission critical flight. If it is for you then call an airline or drive a car.

I’m sure procedure changes will help, but let’s not forget what our outcome must be — a safe landing — ANYWHERE.



Wow. What a great attitude!!!



I've tried to be a communications conduit here and it doesn't seem to be working real well. This is the last response I am going to provide to this thread. It is now time for us to own the pillar we can, and that is pilot behavior/operations, and start brainstorming. I will figure out a way to cut and paste Dan's post as an initial post.

There seems to be a theme here of it is everyone else's problem. Quite candidly, some of you probably shouldn't be flying into OSH. I've said a number of times that other memeers of the team have taken ownership back to their respective areas and are continuing to work improvements. During the course of our long journey here we did listen to ATC tapes, along with FAA participation. For anyone here to think they they don't wnat to improve is very wrong. We also listened to pilot conversations with ATC, and many of those were very embarrassing to us (we ARE a member organization, remember?). Sadly, the "me first" part of our society came through in way too many of the pilots.

We also watched YouTube videos . We tried not to leave any stone unturned. Seems as though a good many of you here don't want to hear that. This was a lot of work with participation from all pillars of the community.

There are other things that are still being worked but aren't ready to communicate yet, but here's some things to consider:

EAA:

*Yes, the old Ultalight runway was and still is part of the conversations. How to beter utilize it is top of mind. It's not baked yet. :)

*We can't just go and build new taxiways and new runways. EAA doesn't own the airport. Jack spends a LOT of time in meetings with the Airport Authority and with the local community to make sure our needs our understood. In some cases the EAA is funding these improvements. Lots of moving parts there. We are lucky to have Jack working for us. He is really good at it. There are improvements slated for next year, but keep in mind the construction season at OSH is not all that long. Someone mentioned the plastic stuff that gets punded into the grass to help with wet taxiways. Yes, that was discussed and is being looked at, as is fresh asphalt.

*Lots of communication channels are being prepped. Everything from Chapter grams to utilizing our Tech Counselors and Flight Advisors to get the message out. There will be videos created and published. Hopefully, we will even get Wings credit.

*I've already mentioned the texting service EAA is creating, along with the ATIS broadcasts.

*parking space inventory management tools are being looked at. I know everyone has there story of the 3 parking places that were left empty. Yes, we want to avoid that.

*EAA is looking at ways to spread the arrivals out over the week, but it takes time to get infrastrucutre in place, such as showers, food, etc. It is being worked with a high priority. We discussed allowing arrivals in the evening after the show for a much later timeframe. Flight and ground ops are working that. Obciously we don't want airplanes with spinning propellers moving around int he dark.

*EAA ground and flight ops have a huge task every year that just keeps getting more challenging. They are working constantly to fine-tune how they mesh together, along with insuring that all of the controllers are working with up-to-date information regarding conditions at the field. Dennis Dunbar, whom some of you may know, has now moved to OSH to join the Ops team full-time. I think he has been leading it for the past 6 years.

The list of EAA actions is actually very long, and is an extra workload on an already overworked and small staff. But they are a very dedicated staff that has the safety of its members as foremost in their minds.

*Improvements at Fond du Lac are part of the discussions, but again, things take time. Jack is actually spending lots of time and money with outside consulting regarding our total transportation picture, both within the grounds and outside the grouds, such as to/from outlying airports. I expect great things to be happening here over the next few years.

ATC:

*ATC also took actions back and are working them. Obviously the NOTAM is one of them. As for the comments about changing vis and ceiling requirements, you just can't do that without RULE changes. The FAR's are rules. However, they are discussing what CAN be done. However, it's not baked yet, so let's give it some time.

* I already mentioned it once but will say it again--- there were inside requirements that were not met in order for some of the past controllers to qualify to come to OSH. I'm sure those many of those controllers were just as disappointed as we were. However, they are taking a look at it to see what can be done in the coming year. Don't forget that ATC is a Union shop. You just don't change things on a whim.

*Aircraft identification slide sets are being refreshed for controllers

*Ways of how to best use the technology available, such as ADSB, are being discussed.

*Enforcement has not been a practice at the convention for the idiot pilots who show up out of gas and close runways, or don't bother to read the NOTAM. WE all can agree on that. But that is not our area. I assure you the FAA is listening. :)


I am still probably missing something that we discussed at our meetings, and I apologize for that. We started meeting at OSH, and met almost twice a week after that. It's been a long journey, and NO ONE thinks it is complete. OSH is the Super Bowl of aviation, and every year just helps us understand the areas we still need to work on.


With all that being said, let's now focus on what we can do as a pilot community to improve the safety. Let's spend cycles on what WE can control. Everything from trip planning, spreading the word, calling out idiots when necessary, and everything in-between. This is a smart group of people with a lot of knowledge and experience. Let's put it to work! And let's stop with the comments that I just guaranteed every pilot is going to use Fond du Lac as an alternate That's silly, and it does no one any good. I trust we are all better than that as we start our planning for next year.

Vic
 
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"Besides that, we home builders are fortunate enough to have the WELCOME WAGONS at our disposal to take us anywhere we need."

Sorry, Welcome Wagons were NOT in operation on Friday. They started on Saturday. We parked in HBP and were VERY fortunate that a fellow chapter member came by, then went to get his truck. Of course EAA security worked hard to keep him from getting to us and our pile of gear that needed to move to our campsite. Very frustrating.

Food was "catch as catch can" by about 5pm on Friday. Ended up going to the Red Barn and buying a sandwich there. Didn't starve but that's not exactly what I'd call a huge selection of food on Friday.
 
--- SNIP ---


I've tried to be a communications conduit here and it doesn't seem to be working real well. This is the last response I am going to provide to this thread. It is now time for us to own the pillar we can, and that is pilot behavior/operations, and start brainstorming. I will figure out a way to cut and paste Dan's post as an initial post.

There seems to be a theme here of it is everyone else's problem. Quite candidly, some of you probably shouldn't be flying into OSH.

---SNIP---

Vic

Having flown my RV-6 to AirVenture 19 of the last 21-years, I will say that the RV Pilot MUST be able to fly the aircraft at both ends of the envelope at GROSS Weight and really be the MASTER of the aircraft if they desire to fly into OSH AirVenture.

I agree that there are some RV pilots that should NOT fly their aircraft to AirVenture.

All pilots flying RVs into AirVenture should go out and do one or more gross weight flight tests at 90-KIAS flying constant altitude and airspeed over a ground based route. (like a road, railroad, pipeline, or river) Being able to do precision soft short field landing at gross weight including go arounds are all needed to be MASTERED to fly into AirVenture without feeling stressed.
 
All pilots flying RVs into AirVenture should go out and do one or more gross weight flight tests at 90-KIAS flying constant altitude and airspeed over a ground based route.

And then go try it at 85, 80, 75, 70, 65... knots. Pick your personal minimum safe speed based on your flight tests and stick to that number. If you pick 70 knots, don't accept 68 knots. You chose 70 knots in a no-pressure, thinking rationally mode. That's the time and place to set limits.
 
And then go try it at 85, 80, 75, 70, 65... knots. Pick your personal minimum safe speed based on your flight tests and stick to that number. If you pick 70 knots, don't accept 68 knots. You chose 70 knots in a no-pressure, thinking rationally mode. That's the time and place to set limits.

Exactly correct - because there WILL be someone ahead of you that can't manage speed, or is trying to make up 1/2 mile in trail from the aircraft ahead of him by reducing his speed, and forcing you back.
 
I have been otherwise tied up recently but I must say:

1. Thanks, Vic (and Paul).
2. As mentioned by Vic, there is a **LOT** being discussed/reviewed on improving things. Some things are not fully sorted out yet. The discussions are ONGOING.
3. There is debate (even in the smaller meetings at OSH) about the efficacy of various ideas so things have to really be thought through fully.
4. The Homebuilt Council, Safety Committee, and Board of Directors have and continue to spend quality time on this matter.
5. EAA is already investing to make improvements beginning next year.

Also, *several* of the additional suggestions made by Dan are in fact being considered (as mentioned).
 
I have been otherwise tied up recently but I must say:

1. Thanks, Vic (and Paul).
2. As mentioned by Vic, there is a **LOT** being discussed/reviewed on improving things. Some things are not fully sorted out yet. The discussions are ONGOING.
3. There is debate (even in the smaller meetings at OSH) about the efficacy of various ideas so things have to really be thought through fully.
4. The Homebuilt Council, Safety Committee, and Board of Directors have and continue to spend quality time on this matter.
5. EAA is already investing to make improvements beginning next year.

Also, *several* of the additional suggestions made by Dan are in fact being considered (as mentioned).
Thanks for the update, James, and to Vic for wearing the fire suit. Is there a location for reviewing the actual draft new process or a draft NOTAM that could be studied? The "twitter" versions are don't seem valid for intelligent/substantive engagement. I bet the FMEA matrix is huge for this.
 
Thanks for the update, James, and to Vic for wearing the fire suit. Is there a location for reviewing the actual draft new process or a draft NOTAM that could be studied? The "twitter" versions are don't seem valid for intelligent/substantive engagement. I bet the FMEA matrix is huge for this.

There is no place to review the draft NOTAM that I am aware of yet. We do have an annual FAA summit meeting in early February at OSH. I?d be willing to be it will be a topic then. I know they need to get the NOTAM ready for print by March.

I will keep the group posted on updates, and I?m sure the EAA headquarters will keep us updated as well.

Vic
 
EAA is accepting (soliciting?) feedback on the proposed changes through 11/27. They are actively engaged in working through some of last year's issues. Based on feedback I had provided on the EAA forum, they reached out to me via email and arranged a conference call with representatives from flight op's and safety to discuss my concerns.

It was a good conversation and I understand their point of view particularly on the extended arrival and the "diamond" circuit back to FDL. I don't necessarily agree with the proposed solution, but I do see what they are trying to accomplish.

A couple of things they mentioned were that the taxiway problems on 9/27 last year were a huge slowdown. (So why didn't they load up 36L & R and use 27 as a taxiway?) And that EAA is working on acquiring land for an airstrip for the low and slow crowd. Hopefully that gets them out of the 90 knot arrival.

On the "diamond" hold. The thought is that they can hold aircraft in a 30+ mile conga line around the diamond and also on the ground at FDL. When things open up, the airborne contingent is turned towards Wittman, and the folks on the ground at FDL launch at the end of that conga line. Too cumbersome for me, but maybe it works or maybe someone changes his/her mind. Same with using ADSB to screen folks in MVFR.

I'd add more, but I'm posting via smartphone.

Send your feedback to:

[email protected]
 
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EAA is accepting (soliciting?) feedback on the proposed changes through 11/27. They are actively engaged in working through some of last year's issues. Based on feedback I had provided on the EAA forum, they reached out to me via email and arranged a conference call with representatives from flight op's and safety to discuss my concerns.

It was a good conversation and I understand their point of view particularly on the extended arrival and the "diamond" circuit back to FDL. I don't necessarily agree with the proposed solution, but I do see what they are trying to accomplish.

A couple of things they mentioned were that the taxiway problems on 9/27 last year were a huge slowdown. (So why didn't they load up 36L & R and use 27 as a taxiway?) And that EAA is working on acquiring land for an airstrip for the low and slow crowd. Hopefully that gets them out of the 90 knot arrival.

On the "diamond" hold. The thought is that they can hold aircraft in a 30+ mile conga line around the diamond and also on the ground at FDL. When things open up, the airborne contingent is turned towards Wittman, and the folks on the ground at FDL launch at the end of that conga line. Too cumbersome for me, but maybe it works or maybe someone changes his/her mind. Same with using ADSB to screen folks in MVFR.

I'd add more, but I'm posting via smartphone.

Send your feedback to:

[email protected]

As I recall, there would be MOTIVATION for people to LAND at FDL in that the first to be sent to OSH when things clear up would be those who had LANDED and gotten out of the mass clutter. That way, people would not feel the need to stay in the air to not "lose their place in line".
More later.
 
As I recall, there would be MOTIVATION for people to LAND at FDL in that the first to be sent to OSH when things clear up would be those who had LANDED and gotten out of the mass clutter. That way, people would not feel the need to stay in the air to not "lose their place in line".
More later.

I specifically asked: "Why waste the time to get aircraft loaded and launched from FDL if the field is ready to accept aircraft?" The answer was that they would land the folks in the diamond to fill the void.
 
My 2cents

My thought is to have a phone # to call to get up to the minute info on arrival status. Why launch into total chaos like this year. Good desion making is key to safe flying. Post this # at the top of every page in the NOTAM. I think most pilots make there last cheap fuel stop fairly close the OSH, then a quick call to check arrival status and decide what to do. Later, turbo out.
 
My thought is to have a phone # to call to get up to the minute info on arrival status. Why launch into total chaos like this year. Good desion making is key to safe flying. Post this # at the top of every page in the NOTAM. I think most pilots make there last cheap fuel stop fairly close the OSH, then a quick call to check arrival status and decide what to do. Later, turbo out.

They plan to have an array of fields beginning 150 miles out broadcasting current Oshkosh information on ATIS and a text message alert system. A very simple dedicated web page would be a good idea too since you can often get a cell/data connection in flight.

The key will be timely and accurate updates which hasn't been a strength in the past.
 
The key will be timely and accurate updates which hasn't been a strength in the past.

This needs to happen INTERNALLY to the OSH staff as well. There have been plenty of episodes discussed that showed lack of internal communication causing issues.
 
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