912 "dimpled" floats

I did the carb float test in January. One carb failed, the other was quickly trending towards failure. So I replaced both float pairs, and mailed the original ones to Lockwood, looking for warranty compensation on the floats, gaskets, and my labor. 4 months now, and nothing. Then, long about February, I learned that the float issue is permanently fixed by replacing the floats again; this time with the new & improved "dimpled" floats. So I again called Lockwood, looking to get 2 pair of the dimpled floats ASAP, Naturally, since this whole issue is a known safety-of-flight issue acknowledged as a design flaw by Rotax, I was hoping for a quick, enthusiastic response, with parts provided free. 3 months now, and nothing at all. Any advice for me?

Thanks,
JRo

Saying this is like showing Dracula The Cross but it has been embarrassingly obvious for a long time now that:

1.)The "safety of flight" basis for the "Mandatory" SB is a little overblown and,
2.) If flight safety is really at risk here this problem needs an AD which would light a fire under Rotax/Ducati and,
3.) Rotax should release data.....numbers....about how many and what percentage of floats have sunk and how many engine failures have resulted.

I know that there are a lot of guys who will simply go nuts at the above....I hope they have fun doing that. !

EBB

I've had 2 sets of 4 floats that eventually all failed the float test. I've bought 'new' old floats from Lockwood in anticipation of the 'new' replacements coming soon.

I was lucky and got a set of the new dimpled replacement floats along with small forms to fill out to send in with the failed floats for a refund. i was told by Lockwood they're only dealing with it every now and again, and this was weeks ago. No sign of any refund.

I have servicing scheduled when I get my Skyview back from Dynon and will install the new dimpled floats then and then send the current ones back for refund. By the way the new replacement floats are more expensive than the older ones.

I have to say after hearing so many good things about Rotax their handling of the floats issue has been poor in my view.

Considering that the 'new' floats are basically the same as the old floats with another level of inspection before being shipped, you'd think this was pretty straight forward? Alas, no. I know, they're made by Bing but?.

To me, this whole thing has not been handled at all well and the impact on customers has been really bad.

For those who aren't affected it probably sounds like complaining from those that have had issues. Consider then how many owners are grounded, or have been, because their floats failed and there are no replacements, or even 'bad floats' to use in the interim. My mechanic couldn't find anyone who had new 'old floats' or the new replacement floats. I just got lucky when I called Lockwood.

Gotta agree

Maybe I don't understand this situation but it seems to me that Rotax Co. must not give a DXXX. Really, how long does it take to engineer a replacement float for the 912, 914, etc? More than been a year? Come on Rotax - fix this even if you lose money - you owe it to your customers. Replacement floats should be free.

It can't be that difficult to do. They say that they have sold 50,000 912s but they can't find a suitable carburetor float replacement? No action here - and action speaks louder than works - but there are no or few words from the factory. Why?

This is unacceptable customer service from a major? engine manufacturer?

Really, someone should be fired. I am glad that I'm not flying a Rotax yet.

Lockwood apparently is 'silent' about this and say that they can't help you.

I must surmise that the problem isn't really in the engineering department - maybe a lawsuit that we haven't heard about? - maybe they REALLY want to sell the fuel injected models. The factory non-action is appalling. Enough.

from the thread starter

Disappointing to say the least that no one has found any satisfaction from Rotax or their US distributor. Sure, I'm new to the RV world; built and been flying my RV-12 for just over a year and a half now (200 hours). I give Dynon absolute top rating, Vans so-so at best, and Rotax absolutely unacceptable. Beginning to regret my decision to sell the Cessna 172 and build a modern, easy-to-maintain (NOT!) LSA.

JRo

The best thing that could happen to Rotax owners is for Rotax to have some real competition. The engine has good performance. The company, on the other hand, does not make customers happy.

With more than 50,000 nine series engines sold, if the floats issue effected all of them, we would probably see a lot more action. It seems like the sinking floats issue is only effecting a small percentage of these engines, and that were built during a narrow time frame. So, it looks like it's a manufacturing defect, and not a design issue. Van just happened to have ordered quite a few engines during that time. At least that is what it look like. I am one of the lucky ones, so far. According to the latest bulletin, my engine, and carb serial numbers are not in the effected range, and so far, my floats are still floating. Does anyone know of any wide spread float failures that have occurred on engines and carbs outside of the posted serial number range?? It would be interesting to gather some data on that. I do love this little engine, but I will continue to keep my fingers crossed until all of this gets resolved.

Tom

FYI :-

I received a refund of $171.76 from Lockwood aviation for a set of 4 'new floats' last week.

I'm going to see if I can get a refund for the previous set of 4 'new old-floats' which I had to buy to replace the faulty ones which came with a new Rotax in a new RV-12 last July.

Some interesting background.

These floats are also used in the two strokes and they do not have any sinking issues with them. Figure that one out.
The new floats are the same as the old. The problem with the old floats was that the Mfg. that makes them for Bing did not control their mix very well on a large batch so they got out in the field. Bing still didn't think there was an issue. Rotax stepped up to the plate and had them not only work on their batch control, but made them do 3 acceptance test on them instead of two. The test added is a liquid pressure test. This can weed out any possible suspects a head of time. The only difference now between the old floats and new is the new dimples in the new floats for identification. The cause of the delay in shipping out floats was a shipping mistake. The new batches were sent to the Bahamas UPS, but they were not supposed to go there and could even be accepted. They were sent back. Then it happened a second time with the same shipment. It had to be sent back. It finally made it to the correct address and that is why some of you are now getting floats. The other issue is that the SB caused people to over react and everyone decided to order some so it put an undue strain on the production runs and deliveries. There was no way for any of the distributors to know who just orders floats to just have them or who was grounded and couldn't fly. Plus people bought more than they needed in the panic. They are slowly getting them out. When you get yours there should be paperwork in the box to help get your exchange taken care of. You must log it in the logbook and send a copy of that with the paperwork to your distributor. If you bought directly from Bing those aren't covered. If you have one of the engine serial numbers affected by the SB or you bought floats from a distributor and they have that on file you're good to go.
If you are grounded because you need floats you may be able to call your distributor and have them move you up to the front of the list. That's up to them.

p.s.
Scratches or dings on the outer surface of a float has no bearing on whether it absorbs fuel or not. Ethanol fuel has no bearing either. It is strictly a breakdown in the tens of thousands of micro bubbles in the interior that causes the problem.

"over react"? "panic"?

912 owners trying to avoid the headache of mandatory periodic float checks are hardly over-reacting or panicking. Put the blame where it belongs.

Top Cat said:

FYI :-

I received a refund of $171.76 from Lockwood aviation for a set of 4 'new floats' last week.

I'm going to see if I can get a refund for the previous set of 4 'new old-floats' which I had to buy to replace the faulty ones which came with a new Rotax in a new RV-12 last July.

Click to expand...

Sent my old back 9 weeks ago and still haven't seen the refund ...

Hi 100RS,

What I meant by over reacting and panic was that people are ordering them that don't need them and are not even in the recall and then others aren't ordering just 1-2 sets for their plane, but 4 or more sets for some time down the road. The over ordering has put the strain on filling the orders for the people who really need them.

I for one am happy that Rotax stepped up to the plate and sent an SB out being proactive and not just reactive like so many in the auto industry. They got in front of this instead of a year behind it.

I don't think there is any blame here. It is just an Mfg mishap with the people who made the floats for Bing that then sent them to Rotax. Just like other things in life. Nothing is ever 100%, 100% of the time. What separates the good and bad is what Mfg's do to make it right. Even though it wasn't Rotax's fault they are paying for it. Rotax said there was an issue. If you have an issue it should be with Bing. They never thought it was an issue and if it weren't for Rotax you may still be dealing with the old floats.

Hi TomKK,

Get with the distributor you sent them to. That's too long.
Anyone that sends in for a refund needs to make sure they send in the paperwork and if after 4 weeks call the distributor and ask for some help.

I thought so too but Lockwood doesn't seem to be replying to email. Guess I'll call them next week.

Sink, if you don't mind could you give a little more info on who you are and how you have come by this info! I understand nothing is perfect and over all I like my Rotax. But no matter how you explain it this whole thing has been handled poorly by Rotax. Shipping a box twice to the wrong address is poor business plain and simple. . Here's Question; why does Rotax ship into the Bahamas and not directly to there 3 dealers in the U.S.?

Somebody

And his/her supervisor needs to get FIRED. Maybe a lot of people need to get fired. This is totally unacceptable - if anyone thinks that I'm over reacting, I don't care. This is not how you run a business- large or small.

All this about a really needed part from a multi million dollar company. I am disappointed that Rotax apparently didn't light a fire under the float manufacturer.

If I had one of the affected engine, I for d**n sure would have a 'spare' set of floats - and I would have grounded my airplane until I had replaced the 'bad' ones and had a spare set. The Rotax is the heart of the RV-12 and the a set of properly functioning floats is essential. Rotax clearly did not support those with the 'bad' floats.

Hi Jetguy,
Rotax instructor.


p.s.
Rotax doesn't ship direct. Normally they ship to one of the 22 master distributors worldwide like Kodiak in the Bahamas. Then the master distributor ships and divides up shipments to the individual distributors. Kodiak is over North America, Central America and South America. The Rotax Flying and Safety Club handles all warranties for Rotax for these countries. If you fill out a warranty form like the CSIR on the Rotax-Owner forum then that one goes through Rotec and most of the time that delays help. You need to go through a US distributor.
Lockwood, CPS and Leading Edge. The floats weren't shipped from Rotax.

I, for one, don't understands Sink's messages: In the first one he says Rotax shipped to the Bahamas in error TWICE and in the second one I think he says that Kodak in the Bahamas is the correct distributor/trans shipment point for the Western Hemisphere.

I fully understand SNAFUs because I used to lead a $XXX,000,000.00 company. Those SNAFUs were usually made when somebody was trying too hard to fix a problem or when somebody good turned incompetent for some reason.....usually a personal reason.

But I also KNOW that there are only three really important items in a company's main focus: People, Customers and Profits. NONE of those three can exist without health among the others. It has been 11 months since this problem was discovered. That is way too long and it shows a disregard for the middle of those three: CUSTOMERS!

I agree that somebody needs to find another job but I also think that Rotax needs to explain just what they have been doing about this and then they must make a forecast for us of when it's going to be fixed.

EBB

"Normally they ship to one of the 22 master distributors".

This is the normal routing, but isn't for the floats because of Bing's and the float MFG.'s involvement.
Rotax isn't the MFG of the floats and neither is Bing. This became a matter of Bing and the supplier. Rotax was more the intermediary trying to resolve what they saw as an issue. They are getting out there because I have talk to a couple of the distributors and owners. These had to be made for worldwide distribution and supply and not just the US. Rotax produces approx. 3500 engines a year and that's a lot of floats over a couple of years. Not all floats are bad and it has been a small number of produced engines. The floats are being distributed worldwide in batches as they are made available from the float MFG.
It's being fixed, but only as fast as the float Mfg can produce floats. Rotax has no control over this part.

I still don't get it Sink: Rotax "has no control over (float making)"? I don't believe that. That is like saying that Apple has no control over the Chinese manufacturers for iPhones or that Ford has no control over the manufacturers of Sony radios in Ford trucks; they have complete "control" of that because if those suppliers don't perform they get replaced and they get replaced fast. After 11 months Rotax either had to take "control" or abandon a whole lot of customers and that is what they have done.

Also if Rotax makes 3500 engines per year and each has four bad floats that means that there is a need for 14,000 new floats/year. Double if it's two years. That is not a big enough number to explain the complete screw up this has been.

When I bought my RV12 I said on this BLOG that I hoped Rotax would succeed in this market. Then there were only three Rotax engines on our field which is the biggest GA field in Southern California which is arguably the biggest GA market in the world. I got a lot of raspberries for even thinking that a large and successful company like Rotax had not already succeeded. Well they have failed their customers and they will not succeed it that continues for anything like the 11 months this has gone on. Right now I would not recommend to another pilot that he buy a Rotax engine or an airplane....even an RV12 like mine....without some fast and very effective corrections of this complete screw up which reflects a massive disregard for customers.

EBB

"Just like other things in life. Nothing is ever 100%, 100% of the time."

Do you think that the Rotax engine owners on this site need to be given this particular life lesson? Please stop talking down to unhappy Rotax owners. No one expects perfection. We do expect the company that brags about selling over 50,000 9-series engines to manage a product defect issue with some degree of competence, however.

Rotax builds a good engine. Their customer care, OTOH, is crappy, and no amount of cheerleading for them is going to change my opinion.

R100rs,
If I offended you I'm sorry. That was not my intent. I'm just the messenger here. I thought you may be interested in some behind the scenes info.
Please don't take what I said as talking down. I was only trying to give additional info that many don't have. I have been reading lots of conjecture all over the web. I was just trying to be helpful. That's the problem with things in writing as they can be taken wrong.
No life lesson here. Just trying to bring some facts on the float issue and not just conjecture into the conversation.

Rotax did what they could and some of it was out of their hands and they had to wait just like everyone else did.

Ex Bonanza Bucko said:

..............When I bought my RV12 I said on this BLOG that I hoped Rotax would succeed in this market. Then there were only three Rotax engines on our field which is the biggest GA field in Southern California which is arguably the biggest GA market in the world. I got a lot of raspberries for even thinking that a large and successful company like Rotax had not already succeeded. Well they have failed their customers and they will not succeed it that continues for anything like the 11 months this has gone on..........EBB

Click to expand...

EBB - please don't be under any illusion that Southern California or even the USA, is the biggest market for Rotax aircraft engines - I'm sure you'll be amazed to learn that we Europeans (and the rest of the world outside Southern California) have aircraft that fly, too - and a great many of them are successfully powered by Rotax 91x series engines.

Rotax have already succeeded in GA, that is a fact.

Sure, the USA may have a deciding role in many things in GA but the continued success of Rotax is most certainly not one of them.





PS Lycoming and TCM aren't exactly perfect when it comes to the quality control of their products - crankshafts being a prime example. If you want to talk about aero engine component supplier's quality control then take a look at PMA cylinder ADs. How many different float designs have been found in Lycoming engines?

Dear Aerofurb:
You have upbraided me for being "unhappy" and "untrusting" at least twice when I complained about Rotax's lousy management of this screw up. You have also said too many times that I don't know that the USA is not the only GA market on earth. Please get over both of those misunderstandings of me.

I assure you that I am neither unhappy nor untrusting; I am rather almost the exact reverse of those and I know fully how well Europe is currently doing better GA business than we are here. But that does not remove or attenuate the damage that 11 months of delay and poor communications has had on ROTAX here and, if you stop to notice, there too. Please relax and have good pint there whilst I have a similar margarita here

All the best mate!
EBB

So, Rotax has messengers to bring information to Rotax owners. What none of us Rotax owners have is a way of getting our message to Rotax.

I said it before, the best thing that can happen to Rotax owners is for Rotax Inc. to have some real competition.

There is a way.
Unfortunately Rotax doesn't have those messengers. I took it upon myself to try and help the owners here with some background info. I thought it would help and not cause such a stir.

Anytime you have an issue like a float problem or anything else you can and absolutely should give feedback to Rotax direct. Fill out the CSIR (customer service information report) and send it in. That is the only way and a sure way that Rotax will know they are having some kind of issue. These should be filled out for both warranty work and any issues after that. If you don't do this which probably happens 70% of the time Rotax will never know and never get the feedback you want them to have.
Rotax many times will always ask for copies of your engine logbook so keeping good logbook entries and detailed documentation is paramount.

You can get the form on Rotax flying and safety club or fly Rotax website.

Rotax-Owner website has it too, but if you live in the US going through Rotec in Canada will slow the process terribly.

I have seen Rotax step up and help people that have had issues well after the warranty period with 800-1000+ hrs of time and good documentation really helps.

"I have seen Rotax step up and help people that have had issues well after the warranty period with 800-1000+ hrs of time and good documentation really helps."

And I have seen Rotax not lift a finger for an owner with a well-maintained 700 hour engine that had a failed crankcase.

Hey folks, rather than yelling at each other, is there not a way we can complain to Rotax management directly? Even though Rotax is not directly responsible for the manufacture and delivery of the floats, **they** are the ones that need to put pressure on Bing and the actual float manufacturer.

Can one of you folks located in Europe help by supplying us with a name, email and/or telephone number of a Rotax executive responsible for the aircraft engine branch? I don't seem to be able to locate that information on their website, or by Google search.

Alex

OK, guys, let's see if we can turn this conversation to a more positive direction before it gets completely out of hand and the thread gets shut down. Years ago when my company sent me to dispute resolution training I remember that one of the principles of reaching a consensus was to concentrate on the things we can AGREE on, as a starting point. Can we agree on these points?

1. The delays in getting replacement parts has been extremely frustarting to many Rotax owners.
2. The Rotax supply/support chain, at least to US customers, is less than optimal.
3. Language and possibly cultural barriers exist that hamper communication.
4. This is a wider problem than just floats. Remember the engine-driven fuel pump issue of a few years ago?
5. We would all like to see the Rotax supply/support chain and two-way communications improved, and are willing to help in that effort.

Might it be possible to have a working group address these issues with Rotax management, the three distributors, and Kodiak? Possibly at Oshkosh when most if not all of these entities are available. No shouting and finger pointing, just a straightforward airing out of issues and ideally a plan to improve the situation.

Thoughts on this idea?

Hi Big John,

I agree that positive is better.
Please don't shoot the messenger here I don't make these rules and have to follow them just like the next guy . I'm in the same boat. I'm just trying to let people know the system in place.
The three distributors, and Kodiak are at Oshkosh and Sun'n Fun. If you want a direct talk that would be the place, but it is possible they will ask you to put it in writing and submit it through channels since they are dealing with so many people there.

Normally:
Unfortunately there is no direct link to Rotax in Austria and they won't talk directly to the public. Not even the US distributors have that option. The chain that they use and don't deviate from is: The customer must report issues to the regional distributor via the CSIR (customer service information report) form, then the distributor adds comments to the form and forwards this to the master distributor or the Rotax Flying and Safety club that handles warranties for the America's market (North , Central and South America). Then either one of those two entities have direct contact with Rotax. Each master distributor in the world, 22 of them, do get personal audit visits from time to time from Rotax to make sure things are running correctly with the master and regional distributors. Our only way to contact anyone and have information sent to them is through the CSIR and then you can attach your information to that.

Too many people don't fill out the CSIR form so Rotax never has any feedback or doesn't know the scope of an issue. This really needs to be done.


Side note:
This is the only way to report a problem and also get warranty if you are still within that period of time. Here is a big issue, you must have registered your engine to get help. If you did not send in your warranty card or the SLSA Mfg did not register the engine for you then you must contact your regional distributor to have them do it for you. If your engine isn't registered and you have a warranty claim you must get it registered first before they will help you. Just call the distributor and have them do it.


You can use this web page to type your engine serial number in to see if your engine is registered.

http://www.rotaxflyingclub.com/registration/engine

The Rotax Flying and Safety Club web page is a great place to get lots of info.
Things that re new, where to find a Rotax engine tech, all your SB's, SI's, ect.... and all your manuals. They have Rotax course schedules, the CSIR form. Lots of good info can be found here. The other good place for info is right off the Rotax website.

http://flyrotax.com/home.aspx

Info from either of these sites can really help an owner. I have been doing this for a couple decades and they still help me all the time.

Sink,

Thank you for the immediate reply, and more importantly for your interest in providing information to the community. Don't let the angry people scare you off! They are just frustrated.

I'm busy today, but will have more to say this evening.

BTW, if there are moderators watching this, how would we go about moving this discussion to a thread of its own. This has broadened into a more general thread than simply about dimpled floats.

John

When I took the ROTAX course the instructor told us that ROTAX is a strong proponent of the "just in time" inventory process, so they don't maintain a large inventory of parts on hand. That might be the cause of what some perceive as a lack of responsiveness. Now that they have such a large share of the new engine market maybe they will rethink their inventory levels to better accommodate these kinds of issues.

Thanks Sink for providing knowledgeable information.
Joe

Thanks Mitch and John.
I wasn't trying to upset anyone just trying to provide a little more info that may not be out there. I'll help where I can and post any hard to get info if I get any.

Hello Sink,

You seem to have a lot of inside information that the rest of us don't have access to. Could you please explain how a company the size of Rotax has been able to isolate themselves so thoroughly from their distributors and customes and still survive? Is this how business is usually done in Europe?

We bought Rotax engines equipped with Bing carburators and floats made by yet another company. I hold Rotax solely responsible for the quality and reliability of the equipment/accessories that they installed and sold with that engine. By the same token, I would expect the Rotax management team to be fully accessible to their customers when major problems or issues arise with those accessories.

In other words, how come there is no direct path to contact Rotax management so we may voice our concerns? Instead, the only path of communication seems to be some "form" to fill out that will get filtered along the way and never reach the folks that are in power to help resolve the issue.

Please help me understand.

Thanks,
Alex

For Alexe:

HERE, HERE!!

EBB

New thread for wider issue of Rotax support

I started a new thread with a title more oriented to general Rotax support issues, beyond the specific float problem. It is here.

Yesterday we installed the new dimpled floats!

The old set will be returned to Lockwood for refund.

At the same time we installed the 00002 carb springs and the mechanic balanced the carbs. New float gaskets too.

So hopefully this is the last I have to do with floats for a LONG time!

Having sat in my hangar for a little over 3 weeks whilst the Skyview unit was returned to Dynon for repair, I have to say the Rotax started right up first time!!