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Operating Limitations in Phase II for Experimental aircraft

cleve_thompson

Well Known Member
Are the following limitations for Phase II flight in all Operating Limitations for Experimental Amateur-Built Aircraft, the limitations we have to live by if we fly experimental amateur-built aircraft?

1. ?Except for landings and take-offs, this aircraft may not be operated over densely populated areas or in congested airways.?

2. ?This aircraft is prohibited from operation in congested airways or over densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground.?

------------These restrictions worry me.--------
 
Yes

None of them are actual restrictions to flying in Phase II, though. My home airport is under a Class B airspace and I transition all the time over populated area. It is actually under the 1500 ft ring so I only have 1000ft AGL during the transition. This is perfectly legal with those restriction because of the "Except for Take-off and Landing" phrase. When I am transitioning over densely populated areas it is for take-off and landing purposes. When in a cross country and I over fly densely populated area I am at "sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure". If I am in an congested airway I am usually directed there by ATC. So, they are really none restrictions. I think my interprtations are those generally accepted by everyone (and most of the FAA).
 
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Those restrictions are obsolete and went away about 7 or 8 years ago. My aircraft's operating limitations were issued in 2001 and did not include those restrictions.

Older homebuilts will have those restrictions, but you can petition the FAA to get the restrictions updated to the modern version without the restrictions.
 
OP Limit Restrictions

Hi Cleve,

I just had an experimental certified last week and your quote was exactly what was printed on my operating limitations.

Mitch Garner
RV-4 flying
PL-4 flying
 
Part 91 Genreal Operating and Flight Rules

91.119 Minimum Safe Altitudes: General

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

This FAR aplies to all aircraft operations, including Experimental Category aircraft. Including this restriction in Experimental Operating Limitations is redundant.
 
Phase II?

OK, I gotta know ... what IS "Phase II"?

I've searched here on DT for a description, and I've even searched the FARs in a vain attempt to find a definition. I know what Phase I is, but what's Phase II?

Is there a Phase III?

(if this is a stupid question, that's OK ... I ask a TON of 'em!) :D
 
Congratulations Don, you are now in Phase II, from which there is no escape.....

There IS no Phase III...
 
Phase I is for flight testing.
Phase II is for all operations after phase I is completed and properly documented in the aircraft maintenance records.
There is no Phase III.
 
Congratulations Don, you are now in Phase II, from which there is no escape.....
There IS no Phase III...
The only way to escape Phase II is by going back into Phase I.
Well there is another way, but we don't want to talk about that!
 
Phase I is for flight testing.
Phase II is for all operations after phase I is completed and properly documented in the aircraft maintenance records.
There is no Phase III.

Well, that's kinda what I thought. But why give Phase II a name at all then? I understand Phase I being the flight test phase. Seems kind of silly to even have a name for Phase II if it's just regular ol' flyin'.

Maybe they should change it to "FREEDOM" ... :D

Thanks, guys. I knew SOMEBODY here would have an answer.
 
Bacause...

Being an experimental aircraft, you are always within an experiment!
No matter how much you fly that aircraft, it will never be a "Standard" certificated aircraft.
 
Phase set to 'stun'?

Just this morn I was wondering, how many of us out there bought a flying RV, and never really went thru 'Phase I', which I think is an issue, if not a hazard!
Now of course I did 10 + hours with an instructor as my license had lapsed, but what should All new owners go thru to become familiar with their new aircraft? I probably didn't cover half the things in Phase one.

....and what if the first guy was a bit liberal, or just not aware of how to properly do the testing, and all the numbers in the POH are suspect?

I'd appreciate some Canadians piping up here if the rules are different!

thx all!
 
Operation of Expermental Aircraft over populated area?

Some one told me that there is a FAR that prohibits opperation of expermental aircraft over populated areas.... True? If it is, seems like it is not enforced!

Thanks,
 
Limitations unraveled

FAA Order 8130.2(), Currently 8130.2F, is used as guidance for the inspector/DAR in issuance of the Special Airworthiness Certificate for an experiment amateur built aircraft. As part of the issuance of that certificate, the inspector/DAR will issue operating limitations. These are issued verbatim from the order. Currently the language pertaining to your question is this:

START ORDER 8130.2F LANGUAGE
(6) This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground.

NOTE: This limitation is applicable to the aircraft after it has satisfactorily completed all requirements for phase I flight testing, has the appropriate endorsement in the aircraft logbook and maintenance records, and is operating in phase II.​
STOP ORDER 8130.2F LANGUAGE

Take note of the "NOTE", which says it IS APPLICABLE FOR AIRCRAFT IN PHASE II.

So, yes, it CERTAINLY DOES apply once you are out of phase I. In fact, it ONLY applies to aircraft out of phase I. There's another limitation to cover Phase I.

START ORDER 8130.2F LANGUAGE
(5) Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated over densely populated areas or in congested airways.

NOTE: This limitation is applicable for phases I and II and should be issued
in accordance with paragraphs 135b(1) and (2) of this order.
STOP ORDER 8130.2F LANGUAGE

HERE'S THE IMPORTANT PART:
*Every experimental aircraft issued an Airworthiness certificate using this order (and this order's been around for a good long time) will have Operating Limitations specific to their aircraft, and that language is taken directly from the order...although more limitations can be added by the issuing inspector/DAR.
*If the order is revised, your limitations ARE NOT. However,You can have them revised, or be requested to have them re-issued, which will mean your operating limitations will likely be reissued under the latest revision's language.
*There has been a lot of change from revision to revision in the language and content of the order as it pertains to Operating Limitations. So, your limitations may be completely different than your neighbors, based on the revision of the order at the time of issuance.

Clear as mud? Here's the link for FAA Order 8130.2F
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgOrders.nsf/0/8b6b70e0dcb91cf58625765900790f72/$FILE/8130.2F%20chg%204.pdf
Look at Section 9 (starts on Page 149 (page # printed on the paper, not numbered by acrobat). Operating Limitations start on Page 164)
 
And there is a FAR to back it up...

...of course...:)

Sec. 91.319

Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate--
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that--
(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.
.....
 
Otherwise authorized...

...of course...:)

Sec. 91.319

Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate--
(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or
(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.
(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that--
(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and
(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.
(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.
.....

The last item in the PhaseII section of my Operations Limitations says:

"This aircraft may be operated over densely populated areas and in congested airways"

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Then you are...

The last item in the PhaseII section of my Operations Limitations says:

"This aircraft may be operated over densely populated areas and in congested airways"

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

...authorized by the Administrator...:D

Is that particular line in the usual Operating Limitations for RVs?
I couldn't find it in the Sample ones I looked at...
 
The last item in the PhaseII section of my Operations Limitations says:

"This aircraft may be operated over densely populated areas and in congested airways"

That's interesting, since that statement (if shown in your operating limitations exactly as you posted here) is not found in the operating limitations called out in FAA Order 8130.3 (any version). The inspector (DAR or FAA ASI) is not allowed to issue operating limitations that are less restrictive than what is called out in the order. They may issue more restrictive limitations in the interest of public safety. If that statement is shown in your operating limitations without further qualifications it should not have been issued. In short, you just won the operating limitations lottery!
 
Joe is exactly right on all points;

and you are bound by the wording in YOUR op lims.
However if a situation arose that caused a fatality, and these circumstances were involved, you inspector could be called on the carpet.
 
The last item in the PhaseII section of my Operations Limitations says:

"This aircraft may be operated over densely populated areas and in congested airways"

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA

My guess is that it is a typo, big time.

It should read "....may not...".
 
I actually would recommend you get them verified. The FAA order supercedes anything that someone in the Field may write down without an exemption from the Adminsitrator. I would put forth an educated guess that the word "not" was inadvertently left out as a typo error, not as an actual "commission."

Vic
 
Wait a sec.


(6) This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground.

You need permission or altitude to fly through/take off or land in a densely populated area anyway, right? If you call call ATC and announce yourself as "Experimental" and they don't tell you to go around the airspace, I'd say that that gives you permission to operate in that congested, densely populated area. What's a sufficient altitude? Enough wiggle room to find a flat spot, based on the flight characteristics of your aircraft? Enough that YOU feel well within margins?

I don't have the chart handy, but if you're coming into KSMO north from Malibu (not densely populated) and you announce to Santa Monica Tower that you're "Experimental 313TD" inbound with Charlie at the Palisades, and they tell you to report the 45, that means you are clear to fly into the dense Los Angeles basin and turn left to go alongside Wilshire blvd at SMO's pattern altitude. Right?
 
Wait a sec.


(6) This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the ground.

You need permission or altitude to fly through/take off or land in a densely populated area anyway, right? If you call call ATC and announce yourself as "Experimental" and they don't tell you to go around the airspace, I'd say that that gives you permission to operate in that congested, densely populated area. What's a sufficient altitude? Enough wiggle room to find a flat spot, based on the flight characteristics of your aircraft? Enough that YOU feel well within margins?

I don't have the chart handy, but if you're coming into KSMO north from Malibu (not densely populated) and you announce to Santa Monica Tower that you're "Experimental 313TD" inbound with Charlie at the Palisades, and they tell you to report the 45, that means you are clear to fly into the dense Los Angeles basin and turn left to go alongside Wilshire blvd at SMO's pattern altitude. Right?

As has been discussed, that text for Experimentals is very much like what applies to all aircraft in 91.119...

Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:
(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.


In fact the word "undue" is the only difference I can see...which is a difference though. Note 91.119(a) applies anywhere, not just when "operating in congested airways or over densely populated areas" and without an exclusion for "unless directed by air traffic control".

Just IMO. :)
 
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Anyone know if anyone's been busted for this?

Is it being enforced?

IMO!

I am thinking this rule is one those, that the FAA can point to when there is a problem. Such as when there is a crash over a city and the reporters quoting the FAA will report that "the aircraft was prohibited from operating over congested areas".

Otherwise, I am not sure the FAA is particularly concerned about normal ops over "congested areas".
 
This is exactly the sort of thing that some cities are trying to use to block experimental aircraft operations - recent case in point being one of the (Las Vegas?) airports out West.

However, note that most airports have one or more paths for arrival/departure that are not "congested" or "highly populated," and that we generally have sufficient altitude to make a safe landing unless you are on a circling approach IFR.
 
This is still a little confusing to me. If you look at the FAA notes associated with the 2 clauses (5) & (6), they seem to overlap & conflict:

"
(5) Except for takeoffs and landings, this aircraft may not be operated over densely populated
areas or in congested airways.

NOTE: This limitation is applicable for phase 1 and 2 and should be issued in
accordance with paragraphs 135b(1) and (2) of this order.

(6) This aircraft is prohibited from operating in congested airways or over densely populated
areas unless directed by air traffic control, or unless sufficient altitude is maintained to effect a safe
emergency landing in the event of a power unit failure, without hazard to persons or property on the
ground.

NOTE: This limitation is applicable to the aircraft after it has satisfactorily
completed all requirements for phase I flight testing, has the appropriate
endorsement in the aircraft logbook, and is operating in phase II.
"

If the (5) clause had said Phase 1 only, then it would make more sense.
 
(5)
NOTE: This limitation is applicable for phase 1 and 2 and should be issued in
accordance with paragraphs 135b(1) and (2) of this order.

(6)
NOTE: This limitation is applicable to the aircraft after it has satisfactorily
completed all requirements for phase I flight testing, has the appropriate
endorsement in the aircraft logbook, and is operating in phase II."

If the (5) clause had said Phase 1 only, then it would make more sense.

Note under (5) is a carry-over from the old operating limitations and should have been changed.
Note under (6) is correct. I've been trying to get them to update it for a while now with no luck.

BTW; These notes are for the inspector and should not appear in your op lims, although some FAA inspectors put them in.
 
Note under (5) is a carry-over from the old operating limitations and should have been changed.
Note under (6) is correct. I've been trying to get them to update it for a while now with no luck.

BTW; These notes are for the inspector and should not appear in your op lims, although some FAA inspectors put them in.

The 'Notes' are not in my operating limitations. I got them from the FAA governing document & felt they were unclear.

Mel, Should both limitations (5) and (6) be in the operating limitations for an aircraft in Phase II? Seems like a conflict.

'Pilot Since the Last Century'
 
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Just had my inspection this morning and discussed this very topic with the DAR. He pulled out his manual and showed me the same notes. My Op Lim #5 says I cannot operate in congested airways or over populated areas but Op Lim #6 says I can in phase two with the caveats about ATC and altitude. Op #5 doesn't make sense with #6 included...it certainly needs to be changed.
 
Mel, Should both limitations (5) and (6) be in the operating limitations for an aircraft in Phase II? Seems like a conflict.
'Pilot Since the Last Century'

It is a conflict. Paragraph (5) is for phase I.
Paragraph (6) is for phase II. The note under paragraph (5) is a carry over from the old op lims and should be corrected to only include phase I.
 
Amending operating limitations

"1) Request for Amendment to Operating Limitations. Field inspectors may, upon request by the operator of an experimental, amateur-built aircraft, and after an appropriate evaluation of the request, issue amended operating limitations which specifically provide for flight over densely populated areas or on congested airways in accordance with the provisions of ? 91.319(c). When issuing amended operating limitations, ASIs shall determine that the operating characteristics, flight test maneuvers reports, maintenance history, and functional requirements of the aircraft, reflect a degree of safe operating practices that will minimize concerns for safety of the aircraft, operator, and persons and property on the surface."

This is found here: http://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v03 tech admin/chapter 11/03_011_001.htm

Seems to me that this is how we solve this problem. No?
 
It is a conflict. Paragraph (5) is for phase I.
Paragraph (6) is for phase II. The note under paragraph (5) is a carry over from the old op lims and should be corrected to only include phase I.

Actually you need limitation #5 even for phase II because limitation #6 does not have the "except for takeoff and landing" verbiage. Limitation #5 gives you the opportunity to take off and land. Limitation #6 gives you the opportunity to fly in the airspace under discussion when directed by ATC or when sufficient altitude is maintained once the aircraft is in phase II.

The only way you could eliminate #5 during phase II is to add the verbiage "except for takeoffs and landings" to #6, which is not as shown in the FAA Order. Thus, limitation #5 stays in effect in phase II in order to give the allowance for takeoff and landing.
 
I have flown in many places and to my knowledge never been denied access to an airport because I am an experimental.

I flew into and out of the airport just a few miles southeast of LAX so that is densely populated.

I have flown over Denver at a lower altitude than I liked due to ATC directions (a reason not to talk to them in some cases).

Despite all the talk on these "limitations", it seems it has no real operational impact.
 
Hi all,

Sorry for digging out such an old thread, but I have a question about operating limitations and didn't want to start yet another long discussion.

I'm going to buy a flying RV-7, and there is one thing in its operating limitations that concerns me. There is a provision (5) from 8130.2G in there ("no operations over densely populated areas except take off and landing") for phases I and II, but there is no provision (6) ("unless directed by ATC or has sufficient altitude") for phase II.

I'm going to base the aircraft in HWD, which is more or less surrounded by densely populated areas. The question is: am I going to get in trouble for flying around SF bay area with such operating limitations? If I later decide to change something that requires re-issuance of AC or restarting of phase I, will this become a problem? Should I ask FAA to update the current operating limitations in accordance with the most recent version of 8130.2G, i.e. include provision (6) there? How hard is it?

Thanks for the info!
 
Thanks! It is a great place, have been reading a lot here for the last couple of weeks.
 
You can get updated operating limitation. Contact your local FSDO and let them know you have either the older version or the current version that is not complete. When I changed my N number a couple years ago I needed to get new operating limitations to match the new N number. Took two phone calls, two emails, and about one week. Pretty straight forward.
 
You should get your operating limitations amended to the latest version and to revise your phase I flight test area in case you need to go back into phase I after a modification.

Any FSDO or DAR with F.C. 33 and 46 can do that amendment.
 
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