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Lycoming part failure (really ECI)

F

FrankK90989

Well Known Member
Yesterday I removed the top half of my cowl to install a oil cooler cover plate. When the task was complete a quick inspect over the top of this O-320
found a small oil slick near the #3 push rod shroud seal. I noticed that the tube had backed away from the case a small amount (more green seal exposed than it neighbors).
Removed the box cover to see what gives and found the shroud tube spring failed --AKA "push rod tube spring holdenin thingy".
Dug one of the old ones I had in my box of saved parts and found that the original part is made .05" thicker, .035 vs .030.
Spy glass inspection reveals a small imperfection near the break. I think the falure was a manufacture defect, notice the sharp press marks in the photo, the original part is better made, and I will reuse it.
106dizq.jpg
 
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Happened to me also

Same thing happened to me in first 10 hours on my ECI 0-360, in my case oil was all over the inside of the cowl and the broken part had dinged up the valve cover. I now check the tubes every time I take the cowl off and look inside the front for oil on every pre flight.
 
I talked to the ECI guys at LOE about those retaining clips. They are very much aware of the problem and are looking for the solution.
 
broken clip found today

I found a broken clip today as I was removing all 4 ECI cylinders to comply with the recent AD. The push rod tube had not moved and the seal was not leaking. The valve cover was beat up on the inside, Actually had dented the cover slightly. Hope the new ECI cylinders have new improved parts.
 
Jeff,
Are your cylinders in Group B? I have 4 Group B cylinders that are caught up in the new expanded AD. When I contacted ECi (talked with Tim) they said they would not replace the cylinders on an experimental. He told me to send in the cylinders & ECi would inspect them, fix if necessary & return the same cylinders back to me. The new AD states that no Group B cylinders are to be repaired & returned to service. Was that your experience?
 
Another failure.

Today I took a short (.8 hr) flight and upon return noticed oil streaming from the bottom of the cowling!:mad: It turns out that a pushrod tube had backed out! It was a clip failure, identical to the earlier photo. The Mattituck TMX IO 360 has 145 hrs(hobbs). I will be replacing all (4) retainers and one push rod. I will use a Lycoming part, assuming it will fit. I'll know more tomorrow. Lucky in that I did not lose much oil.

My recommendations are to replace all the ECi retainers when you exchange cylinders. My cylinders missed the AD.

Good luck.
David
 
Thanks Gil

I was hoping the fix was simple. Just a bad part on ECi's behalf.Looking closely at the part, it is bad material &/or Heat treat.

David
 
Jeff Vaughan said:
I found a broken clip today as I was removing all 4 ECI cylinders to comply with the recent AD. The push rod tube had not moved and the seal was not leaking. The valve cover was beat up on the inside, Actually had dented the cover slightly. Hope the new ECI cylinders have new improved parts.
Click to expand...

Jeff, how many hours on the cylinders/engine ?
 
115 hours on New TMX-0360
3 out of the four were broken. Only one was in two pieces. The safety lock for the nut held the parts from separating and falling down on the other two.
 
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New problem

Instead of the clip being the problem. It was actually the can follower which failed about an inch and three quarters from the end (clean break). This forced the push rod tube out and caused the clip failure. This will cause a full teardown to my "new engine". I will be contacting ECi about this as well as Mattituck.

David
 
odlee said:
Instead of the clip being the problem. It was actually the cam follower which failed about an inch and three quarters from the end (clean break). This forced the push rod tube out and caused the clip failure. This will cause a full teardown to my "new engine". I will be contacting ECi about this as well as Mattituck.

David
Click to expand...

When you say cam follower, is that the same as lifter? Do you have roller lifters?
 
Only one broke.

It broke about 1/4 inch below the groove. Got to be something else wrong or some bad metallurgy somewhere. I guess I'll have to wait until the case is cracked. There have been no unusual temperatures, speeds or other symptoms. Only the Shadow knows! I consider myself fortunate.

David
 
another failure

While removing the cylinders from a friends ECI O-360 (group B cylinders), we found 2 of the 4 shroud tube springs broken. Tubes had not moved--no oil leaks. Total engine time is just over 85 hours. I think I'll replace mine with the lycoming part before I put my engine into service. As stated above the Lycoming number is LW-14995 and don't forget the LW-12272 lock tab.
 
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As I suspected

Apparently PMA's don't mean anything in the piston game these days. Through the 80's & 90's, most AD's concerned failure and wear in old established parts like oil pumps and corroded crank noses. Now it seems there are a lot of "new" parts using poor material or lacking QC. How do you get PMA on something like a shroud retainer spring when it's obviously a different gauge metal? Are these "paper" PMA's? Anyone know the latest on Superior Airparts? I thought they were most always great.
 
I just saw your post. I made the same posting in 2007, with around 25 hours on my ECI cylinders. It happened on a 45 min. flight. The retainer beat arond inside the valve cover, and punched a series of holes in the cover. I went back to lycoming retainers.
 
Add another failure to the list

I pulled my valve covers today as part of my first condition inspection and found the clip to my #2 cylinder was broken. I have an ECI IO-360 with 100 hours on the tach.

I had already decided to replace the ECI clips and purchased Superior brand clips as well as neoprene valve cover gaskets from AERO.

Better safe than sorry...
 
Thanks to All for the Heads Up!

I just installed 4 new ECI cylinders due to the AD. I have not test run the engine yet. I will replace the ECI clips and retainers with Lycoming.

Regards,
 
Another retainer clip broken

As an update I had one eci retainer clip break at 10 hours, I replaced it with a lycoming part by sheer chance (it was the part in stock at the local parts house). I decided to do an oil change early last week as I was going on a trip to Wisconsin and based on the feedback here and my previous experience I decided to replace all the clips with the superior part (AERO was out of the lycoming parts but Jesse told me he had not heard of a superior part failure) I just checked the clips I removed and I am glad I changed them as another eci clip was fractured right at the bend and broke in my hand.
The superior part and the lycoming part are noticeably thicker and the material looks different like it might be treated differently.
Based on my experience I would advise checking the eci clips, I had 100 hours on the engine when I changed them.
 
Well, I am not very happy. I found one of my push rod tube retainer clips failed and I am sorry but I consider this beyond acceptable. I know ECI could care less, but I will be making a ton of noise about this. Starting with AERO, ECI and my local FAA airworthiness inspector.

THIS IS ****!

I had already obtained a Lycoming retainer clip and I was able to install it. The ECI clip measured .028 thickness and the Lyc .040.

10rlu3b.jpg
[/IMG]
 
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My letter to ECI, AERO and the FAA

ECI,

I bought and assembled a Titan xo-320 from AERO about 4 months ago. The engine has approximately 55 hours on it. About 5 hours ago I noticed that my #3 cylinder push rod tube seal was leaking. I had heard that ECI retainers had failed on other people’s engines so I suspected that, however honestly I sort of wrote that off as an installation error on their part, because I figured there’s no way ECI would sell a POS part for an engine. In any case, my friend who runs the maintenance shop at the flight school I work for had a Lycoming retainer and yesterday I pulled the cap and lo and behold indeed my retainer clip was broken.

I really can’t believe it. I am actually a really nice guy and don’t complain much. However, I spent 22 years of my life as an A&P mechanic for Boeing and United Airlines as well as some GA over the years. Am I to believe that you guys didn’t know that this part is a POS? What about my remaining 3? Obviously they will get replaced ASAP. But come on. I defended you guys on the cylinder AD, this one is unacceptable.

I hate to tell you but I consider the quality of an assembly to be defined by its weakest part. What am I to think about by my ECI Titan xo-320?

I measured the ECI part and found that it was .028 or so. The Lycoming was .040. The Lycoming noticeably compressed the push rod tube seal more.

So what am I asking for, well a Service Bulletin and recall would be in order in my opinion. If you have 3 Lycoming retainers on hand could you send them to the address below?

The retainer clip nut was installed per the Lycoming Overhaul manual, torqued to 96 inch pounds per the ECI hardware manual with a Snap-On $700 calibrated torque wrench.

Tony Phillips
233 Carlin Ct
Hartland WI 53029
262-391-7973
A&P, FCC, CMEL, CSEL, CFI
 
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Response from Jesse at AERO

AERO is sending me new retainers. Thanks
 
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Retainer clips

What gets me about the problem with the retainer clips is it is a "known" problem in the builder community but when I spoke to ECi about the issue at OSH, the VP I spoke to didn't know anything about it.

Any of you who have this problem, make sure you let ECi know.

I just got off my duff and ordered a new set from AERO and will install before my first engine run. I will be curious to see the condition of my springs.
 
Maybe an issue... maybe not

Hold the phone... Many have tried to use these retainers as fully loaded spring clips. That is not the design or purpose. Yes, the retainer should have a VERY slight pressure on the tubes. If you do not shim the retainer with AN washers on the stud from the back side to set this VERY light tension when the retainer is locked down, chances are the retainer will break. I've even seen this with the Lycoming retainers. If the tubes are installed correctly, they don't come back out really easy and do not require a huge spring force to keep them in place. my 2 cents... YMMV :)
 
Sorry, I am a little late in following this thread and having some trouble understanding exactly what the part(s) of concern are due to varying terminology in the posts and some links to images that I cannot view. I see posted references to a "clip", "retainer", "spring" and "push rod tube spring holdenin thingy". Are these all referrring to the same thing? The links to part numbers dont seem to have any accompanying pictures, so Im really not sure what is being described.

Do I understand correctly that I should look under the valve covers? What do I need to do to check/replace mine?

thanks

erich
 
Why should that be the case?

LifeofReiley said:
Hold the phone... Many have tried to use these retainers as fully loaded spring clips. That is not the design or purpose. Yes, the retainer should have a VERY slight pressure on the tubes. If you do not shim the retainer with AN washers on the stud from the back side to set this VERY light tension when the retainer is locked down, chances are the retainer will break. I've even seen this with the Lycoming retainers. If the tubes are installed correctly, they don't come back out really easy and do not require a huge spring force to keep them in place. my 2 cents... YMMV :)
Click to expand...

There are no shim washers called out in the parts manual on a AR (As Required) basis. The parts manual calls for no washers there at all.

If you have an older cylinder without the cast in boss (the narrow deck ones?) at the base of the stud that used the obsolete rectangular style retainer, then shimming might be required.

But I believe most of the complaints listed in this thread were for new engines with the current style of cylinders... No shim washers listed.
 
az_gila said:
There are no shim washers called out in the parts manual on a AR (As Required) basis. The parts manual calls for no washers there at all.

If you have an older cylinder without the cast in boss (the narrow deck ones?) at the base of the stud that used the obsolete rectangular style retainer, then shimming might be required.

But I believe most of the complaints listed in this thread were for new engines with the current style of cylinders... No shim washers listed.
Click to expand...

Hi Gil,

Yes Sir... I've found a lot of places in the Lycoming engine manual that do not call for a small AN washer or a shim to make the final fit and finish correct upon assembly. For 20 years or so we've been using the common sense method. (You don't want to stress (Load) any thin metal components when dealing with aircraft parts) :)
 
az_gila said:
There are no shim washers called out in the parts manual on a AR (As Required) basis. The parts manual calls for no washers there at all.

If you have an older cylinder without the cast in boss (the narrow deck ones?) at the base of the stud that used the obsolete rectangular style retainer, then shimming might be required.

But I believe most of the complaints listed in this thread were for new engines with the current style of cylinders... No shim washers listed.
Click to expand...

Correct, I would have shimmed with washers if that was called out in the MM or IPC, but it wasn't. There does need to be some pressure on the tubes, but I agree, it need not be that much.

A note on inspecting your retainer clips, mine didn't appear to be fractured by visual inspection. It wasn't until I removed the nut that the two pieces fell apart. I suggest that you get new retainers and locking tabs if you have the ECI part. You can removed the retainer without pulling the push rod tubes. However, if you want to pull the tubes to change the seal, you will have to disassemble the rocker, pull the push rods, pull the tubes, replace the seals, pull the tappets from the body and soak them in solvent (use a magnet to extract them from the tappet body), to drain the oil from them. And reinstall everything. As always refer to the appropriate manual when working on your engine and make the appropriate log book entry (IMO).
 
LifeofReiley said:
Hi Gil,

Yes Sir... I've found a lot of places in the Lycoming engine manual that do not call for a small AN washer or a shim to make the final fit and finish correct upon assembly. For 20 years or so we've been using the common sense method. (You don't want to stress (Load) any thin metal components when dealing with aircraft parts) :)
Click to expand...

I am not too proud to be wrong and I am willing eat crow if this was my installation error.

While it may be necessary to shim the retainer, it is not called out. Common sense, means common knowledge. If there are significant number of failures it is NOT common knowledge to shim them. I am a little concerned about failures of parts because I don't have UN-common knowledge of a particular trick to prevent a failure in a component of my valve train system.

The retainer DOES get preloaded. A shim could alter the amount of pre-load, but just how much do you shim? One washer? Two? Thick, thin?
 
apkp777 said:
I am not too proud to be wrong and I am willing eat crow if this was my installation error.

While it may be necessary to shim the retainer, it is not called out. Common sense, means common knowledge. If there are significant number of failures it is NOT common knowledge to shim them. I am a little concerned about failures of parts because I don't have UN-common knowledge of a particular trick to prevent a failure in a component of my valve train system.

The retainer DOES get preloaded. A shim could alter the amount of pre-load, but just how much do you shim? One washer? Two? Thick, thin?
Click to expand...

I've seen one thick and one thin most of the time. Some A&P's will actually use a seaming plier to adjust the retainer for the very slight pressure you want here. I prefer not to bend around on the retainer. :)
 
Here is the procedure from the o-360 Superior Overhaul Manual

Installation of Pushrod Tubes, Pushrods, and Rocker Arms
(1) Visually inspect the pushrod tubes (40, Figure 72-00-09.15) for handling damage, dents, or burrs. Check I.D. of each tube for debris.

(2) Apply a light coat of Fuelube? or equivalent to 8 O-ring seals (45) and 8 bottom tube seals (35). Install O-rings to pushrod tube (40) at top groove locations.

(3) Insert pushrod tubes through holes at the top of each cylinder then install bottom seal (35). Seat each tube into its crankcase lifter hole using a rotary or twisting motion. Ensure that o-ring seal and bottom seal are properly seated.

(4) Install spring clip (50) over stud in cylinder and over the edge of each pushrod tube.

(5) Secure spring clip with lock plate (55) and 0.25 in. nut (60).

(6) Torque nut (60) to 50-70 in-lbs. Bend lock tab with screwdriver or pliers to secure nut.

(7) Inspect pushrods for bends or damage.
(a) Blow clean, dry air through each pushrod (1).
(b) Visually inspect I.D. of each pushrod to verify each is clear, clean, and open.
 
My factory Lycoming...

LifeofReiley said:
I've seen one thick and one thin most of the time. Some A&P's will actually use a seaming plier to adjust the retainer for the very slight pressure you want here. I prefer not to bend around on the retainer. :)
Click to expand...

...rebuild engine (new cylinders) came with no washers...

Are we mixing up old castings (and narrow deck) cylinders that were designed for the older style of retainers?
The old narrow deck cylinders I have in my hangar do not have the cast in boss under this retainer, and I believe a spacer was called out in this case, but I can't find my old obsolete parts manual...:)
 
Compare the ECI with the Lycoming clips .The ECI clips have a nasty crease just waiting to break.
And yes you might need a washer or two under the clip, (use your own judgment) the cyl head castings could be made better.
How much do these engines cost???:eek:
 
RE: Gasket Part # ?

It looks like I will be changing out the retainers as precaution.

Does anyone ....Gil.... know the part number for the Neoprene Valve Cover Gaskets.... ECi Titan IOX-360 .

Thanks in advance.

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... Flying and Tracken (MT-RTG)
 
RE: Gasket # ???

fstringham7a said:
It looks like I will be changing out the retainers as precaution.

Does anyone ....Gil.... know the part number for the Neoprene Valve Cover Gaskets.... ECi Titan IOX-360 .

Thanks in advance.

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... Flying and Tracken (MT-RTG)
Click to expand...

My research comes up with a part number ....75906

So... SL75906 @ 1.03
75906 @ 1.52

and at Chief

RG-75906 @ 6.75

I just need to call AERO and check to see what the gasket material is made of.


THANKS GIL>>>>>plus you are fast!!!!!

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... Flying and Tracken (MT-RTG)
 
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RE:Lyco or Superior

apkp777 said:
AERO is sending me new retainers. Thanks
Click to expand...

Hi Tony

Is AERO sending you Lyco or Superior retainers.

The reason I ask is I called them today (Aug 10, 2010) and they said they were out of Lyco but would send out Superior which were sent to all that have called ......

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... Flying and Tracken (MT-RTG)
 
fstringham7a said:
Hi Tony

Is AERO sending you Lyco or Superior retainers.

The reason I ask is I called them today (Aug 10, 2010) and they said they were out of Lyco but would send out Superior which were sent to all that have called ......

Frank @ 1L8 ...RV7A... Flying and Tracken (MT-RTG)
Click to expand...

I don't know. As long as they aren't ECI ones I don't care.
 
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