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questions regarding E-LSA

Cdenora

Cdenora

Active Member
I am currently in my fuselage build and im thinking about using my own engine a rotax 912uls but I am so confused and stressed about how the registration will be if I do not buy the engine from vans directly and use my own , will this leave me out of E LSA ? Im building 100% by the book .

any thoughts ? IM sorry its just not very clear to me and I cant really seem to find any good source of information I fugured I would build until the engine was needed and ask then but what tha heck why not now.

hope some one can clear this up for me.
 
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E-LSA vs. E-AB

I think you must buy the 912 from Van's in order for them to provide the paperwork to allow you to register it as an E-LSA. If you use an engine (even a 912ULS) not provided by Van's you must register it as E-AB. You may or may not be compliant to fly it as an LSA, but it would not be an E-LSA.

At least that is my understanding, but the very knowledgeable DAR on this site can correct me.

B
 
Check the RV-12 ordering form on Van's web site for more details, but here's the bottom line: If you plan to license your RV-12 as an E-LSA, you cannot delete kit components. Every component of the kit (including powerplant and propeller) has to be purchased through Van?s.

You can still qualify as an LSA using your own engine, but you will have to register E/A-B, not E-LSA.
 
To qualify as E-LSA, you must submit an original FAA form 8130-15. This must be provided by the kit manufacturer. The kit manufacturer cannot issue this form unless all components are supplied by them.
 
I guess the real question that folks haven't asked is - what are rules in Mexico (if your address is correct in the upper left corner)?

Paul
 
Ironflight said:
I guess the real question that folks haven't asked is - what are rules in Mexico (if your address is correct in the upper left corner)?

Paul
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Pault thank you and yes this is correct Im in mexico but the airplane will be registered in the US im building it down here and once its done im taking it back up and getting it registered over there .

that is what I thought that the only option was to buy everything from vans

well can anyone explain the benefits or non benefits of an EAB ? im really in the dark on these subjects
 
Cdenora said:
Pault thank you and yes this is correct Im in mexico but the airplane will be registered in the US im building it down here and once its done im taking it back up and getting it registered over there .

that is what I thought that the only option was to buy everything from vans

well can anyone explain the benefits or non benefits of an EAB ? im really in the dark on these subjects
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I believe the short answer is: 1. You would take a hit in resale value. 2. You would have to fly off 40 hours following inspection/certification. 3. You would have to prove 51% build work.

Other than that, you would have a "you name your plane build"...LSA aero plane..😀😀😀
 
Depending on the Quality of the build

I think this is not a for sure answer.

Depending on the Quality of the build.

There are a lot of pilots that may need a light Sport Aircraft who may be coming from a EAB Aircraft.

My view

Joe D


Phantom30 said:
I believe the short answer is: 1. You would take a hit in resale value.

Other than that, you would have a "you name your plane build"...LSA aero plane..😀😀😀
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MMM not so sure about what to do now

I may just end up selling the build when I get all the way to the engine and instruments so someone else can buy the expensive kits from vans and register it as an LSA and get it done.

I basically started the kit for the build that I enjoy so much, not so much for the plane in the end.
 
What is the bid deal?? Finish it as you like, and go the EAB route. The RV-12 is already on the EAB approved kit list. What is the big deal about ELSA?? The only advantage is that the owner can take a maintenance course and sign off his own annual condition inspection. Even you, as the builder will have to take that course. As EAB, anyone can service it, jut like ELSA. The only difference is that as EAB, if you are not the builder, you will not be able to sign it off, If you sell it, that new owner will need an A&P to sign off the annual condition inspection. Really not a big deal. It's done all the time; inexpensive and the service is readily available. It's a small price to pay for the flexibility that EAB gives you during the build. Oh, one more thing, you will be required to have a 40 hour phase one shake down. It takes almost that long to get through all of the post build testing anyway. Build it your way, and enjoy.

Tom
 
todehnal said:
What is the bid deal?? Finish it as you like, and go the EAB route. The RV-12 is already on the EAB approved kit list. What is the big deal about ELSA?? The only advantage is that the owner can take a maintenance course and sign off his own annual condition inspection. Even you, as the builder will have to take that course. As EAB, anyone can service it, jut like ELSA. The only difference is that as EAB, if you are not the builder, you will not be able to sign it off, If you sell it, that new owner will need an A&P to sign off the annual condition inspection. Really not a big deal. It's done all the time; inexpensive and the service is readily available. It's a small price to pay for the flexibility that EAB gives you during the build. Oh, one more thing, you will be required to have a 40 hour phase one shake down. It takes almost that long to get through all of the post build testing anyway. Build it your way, and enjoy.

Tom
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One "big deal" so to say is that by going Elsa you get the documentation from Vans. Maintenance Manuals, Production Acceptance Procedures, A flight test program, weight and balance worksheets in the PAP. not saying that info is not available to EAB, but it's a big help if you are a rookie builder. Also, as Elsa it is registered as "Vans Aircraft" as the manufacturer, not the builder, which some see as a liability relief (take that for what it's worth).

So far, we have incorporated all the minor changes/upgrades after the airworthiness inspection that we have wanted with no trouble at all being ELSA.
 
Build the plane that you want

Some think that building ELSA is better than EAB and that's OK.

There are over 10,000 RV kits sold and about 1,000 are ELSA.

IF you think ELSA is a better choice then build ELSA.

I think building the plane that you want is the best choice and choosing what you would like to change an purchase as you build.

I also think building EAB is not a problem, and in my view is the best choice for me.

There over 10,000 EAB builders and to them building EAB is no big deal, all necessary paper work is available.
 
KALEWIS said:
One "big deal" so to say is that by going Elsa you get the documentation from Vans. Maintenance Manuals, Production Acceptance Procedures, A flight test program, weight and balance worksheets in the PAP. not saying that info is not available to EAB, but it's a big help if you are a rookie builder. Also, as Elsa it is registered as "Vans Aircraft" as the manufacturer, not the builder, which some see as a liability relief (take that for what it's worth).

So far, we have incorporated all the minor changes/upgrades after the airworthiness inspection that we have wanted with no trouble at all being ELSA.
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Kyle, I wholeheartedly agree that the documentation that comes with the RV-12 kits is absolutely fantastic, and whether you build EAB, or ELSA, you get it all. Additionally. as RV-12 builders, we are also privileged to have access to all of the additional improvements, which, in part, are the result of Van's decision to offer the RV-12 as SLSA. No other home build kits offer this magnitude of engineering support. Believe me, as a rookie builder, I am ecstatically pleased with my decision to build the RV-12. I'm not so sure that I agree with you about the liability issues, but some lawyers will figure that out. The only other issue with going EAB is that you will have to do all of the work yourself, rather than to farm it out. Meet that requirement, document it, and you should have no trouble going EAB.
 
joedallas said:
Some think that building ELSA is better than EAB and that's OK.

There are over 10,000 RV kits sold and about 1,000 are ELSA.

IF you think ELSA is a better choice then build ELSA.

I think building the plane that you want is the best choice and choosing what you would like to change an purchase as you build.

I also think building EAB is not a problem, and in my view is the best choice for me.

There over 10,000 EAB builders and to them building EAB is no big deal, all necessary paper work is available.
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Isn't the RV-12 the only kit that "ELSA" applies to? No where near 10,000 of those. Not relevant to anything but, just out of curiosity, I wonder what percentage of the -12's have been completed ELSA vs EAB.

I'm building my -12 as an ELSA for a number of reasons but one of the biggest was what I perceived as improved resale value. I'm building it to fly not sell but I recognize that it'll be sold eventually. Rightly or wrongly, I think the ability to do one's own annual, combined with the possible thinking that, at least in theory, an ELSA was built exactly like what you can go the the airplane store and buy, might increase the buyer pool.

Who knows, though. In the end, it just boils down to what you want. For me, there weren't many changes I was burning to make and none that couldn't be made later. As far as I know, as long as that's the case, there's no downside to building ELSA. If there are changes that you just can't do without that can't be made later, by all means go EAB.
 
Not a "scientific" pole by any means, but approximately 25-30% of the RV-12s that I certificate are built E-AB.

The most common reason is to use a different engine or make modifications that would be difficult to make after certification.
 
Mel said:
Not a "scientific" pole by any means, but approximately 25-30% of the RV-12s that I certificate are built E-AB.

The most common reason is to use a different engine or make modifications that would be difficult to make after certification.
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Are you willing to say how many RV-12's you have issued a certificate for Mel?
It might give a better indicator of how many of the 365+ that are flying so far, are E-AB.
My guess would have been less than 10%. Maybe that is off a bit......
 
Some of my reasons for going EAB are almost funny. ELSA and the builder on the ID plate has to say VANS! After all that work, I wanted MY name as builder. Strange, huh?
It also let me scrap the list I was keeping of changes I wanted to make after ELSA certification, and make the changes during the build. Resale value may or may not be bigger if ELSA, but it don't seem to affect the other thousands of EAB Vans planes, price a good RV10 sometime and decide how much EAB has it devalued.
 
DonFromTX said:
Resale value may or may not be bigger if ELSA, but it don't seem to affect the other thousands of EAB Vans planes, price a good RV10 sometime and decide how much EAB has it devalued.
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This is not a valid comparison because there is no option for an RV10 other than E-AB. :rolleyes:
 
Van's own?

Haven't researched it but didn't the man (Van) himself build EAB? I don't know why he did that but it would be interesting to hear his reasons. I am sure that his reasons are well thought out.

I'm going ELSA but everyone may make their own choices for whatever class of RV-12 they want to build. The EAB build offers the builder (you) to incorporate changes that suit you.

Simple, make your choices and build what you want.
 
Ya got me there, figured someone would say that. Still my point is that the EAB market is alive and well. Obviously the profit to Vans is greater when they can sell the ELSA style, so the seller guides a bit in that direction.

flytoboat said:
This is not a valid comparison because there is no option for an RV10 other than E-AB. :rolleyes:
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I guess you are all right in some way .

todehnal said:
What is the bid deal?? Finish it as you like, and go the EAB route. The RV-12 is already on the EAB approved kit list. What is the big deal about ELSA?? The only advantage is that the owner can take a maintenance course and sign off his own annual condition inspection. Even you, as the builder will have to take that course. As EAB, anyone can service it, jut like ELSA. The only difference is that as EAB, if you are not the builder, you will not be able to sign it off, If you sell it, that new owner will need an A&P to sign off the annual condition inspection. Really not a big deal. It's done all the time; inexpensive and the service is readily available. It's a small price to pay for the flexibility that EAB gives you during the build. Oh, one more thing, you will be required to have a 40 hour phase one shake down. It takes almost that long to get through all of the post build testing anyway. Build it your way, and enjoy.

Tom
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I really enjoy the building process this is my second project , and I think I can do a few more ( if my wife does not kick me out first ) Im going out of the way doing all the priming process and going a little further and painting some parts inside that will give it a nice look, I guess I will go EAB and modify a little to suit my needs, It was a very confusing subject for me I guess ignorance is the main factor here and I thank you all for all the information. with a little luck it will fly by the end of the year .
 
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