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Airflow Performance FM-150

MED

Well Known Member
Has anyone mounted an FM-150 on a Lycoming IO-390? That is what was recommended by Lycoming when I ordered my Thunderbolt engine, and now I am having some mounting ?issues.?
 
Has anyone mounted an FM-150 on a Lycoming IO-390? That is what was recommended by Lycoming when I ordered my Thunderbolt engine, and now I am having some mounting “issues.”

Send me an email at [email protected] if you need any additional information.

There is a new bracket that is required. In addition, the standard FWF hose will not fit the transducer to fuel servo. Also, the spider hose that it seems they are shipping out with that combination is not the correct length.

We have all the dimensions for the hoses that you will need. If you are doing single or dual PMAGS, we have an optional hose installation package for that also if you decide to forgo building the new manifold pressure lines on your own.

As far as the bracket goes, here is the link to what appears to be needed.

http://airflowperformance.com/index....e-bracket-kit/

Have a great weekend
Steve
 
Airflow Performance has these bracket kits available now, mine is on the way :) These will make the installation much simpler than doing the engineering yourself. And as Steve at Aircraft Specialty mentioned, several of the kit hoses are not the best fit to the FM-150. I have all of the hoses from Steve and they are exact fit.
 
Thanks for the reply. I also have the installation kit on order ($220) and have already bought the replacement hose for the Van’s supplied fuel hose ($125). Have not determined what will be required for the Lycoming-supplied hose from the spider (?$). I am just surprised that I am having to make these mods when I am using the recommended throttle body. I feel like I am plowing new ground. I didn’t want to be a beta tester . . .
 
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The hose from the FM-150 to the spider is too long (mine was) and I had Steve make me a new shorter one. He either has these available or has the dimensions to make you one. I agree the change from the Silverhawk to the ASFP was not seamless by a long shot but I think the kinks are worked out and all of the necessary parts for the change are available.
 
I am just surprised that I am having to make these mods when I am using the recommended throttle body. I feel like I am plowing new ground. I didn?t want to be a beta tester . . .

Mods? New ground? Beta tester? For a cable bracket and some hoses?
 
Mods? New ground? Beta tester? For a cable bracket and some hoses?

Well, I am confident with the help of Airflow Performance and Aircraft Specialty the issues will eventually be worked through. Nevertheless, with over 50 RV-14s flying, using the throttle body recommended by Lycoming and Van's, plus spending North of $38K for the engine throttle body combination, I am surprised everything is not already sorted. Oh, and it is costing me >$500 extra and a few weeks delay. :confused:
 
I think the confusion is from Lycoming not being completely familiar with the RV-14 kit and throttle/mixture cable lengths and routing per the plans. Since the FM-150 fits and is appropriate for the engine, they say it's a drop in change without knowing the kit throttle cable might be a little short and the mixture cable needs to be completely rerouted and extended to reach the mixture arm on the FM-150 which is in a completely different location from the Silverhawk. Neither of these are huge issues, just not what people are expecting when told it's a drop in alternative. But yes there is more $$ involved now for hoses and bracketing and hardware but it's all bolt in and no re-engineering required.
 
Thanks again, Chris. I think you have summed things up well. I guess this brings me back to my original question, though. Has anyone actually flown an RV-14 with an IO-390 using an Airflow Performance FM-150? Anyone?
 
Chris, are the throttle and mixture cables supplied in Vans FWF kit workable or are new ones in order?

The bracket kit from Airflow Performance has alum extensions that allow you to use the stock kit cables. the AFP kit really is complete and solves every issue when using the kit components to the FM-150.

MED, I would bet there are a few coming close to flying if not already, just not by people that post here unfortunately. Mine is probably 3 months from flying (I hope)
 
Well, I am confident with the help of Airflow Performance and Aircraft Specialty the issues will eventually be worked through. Nevertheless, with over 50 RV-14s flying, using the throttle body recommended by Lycoming and Van's, plus spending North of $38K for the engine throttle body combination, I am surprised everything is not already sorted. Oh, and it is costing me >$500 extra and a few weeks delay. :confused:

Everyone,

There are two configuration issues that exist when utilizing the FM150 fuel servo from a fuel hose standpoint.

The first is that the FF00015 will not fit this configuration. The hose required has a 45 and 90 degree fitting with a specific orientation. We offer that hose at $124.95 including shipping.

The second is that the hose being supplied with the Thunderbolt engines from the flow divider to the FM150 is too long. We have the correct dimensions for that hose also. It can be purchased for $89.95.

The combination of the hoses is $204.95 for the two hoses including shipping.

We have been in contact with Thunderbolt and they confirmed that they just recently discovered that the hose length that they are supplying for the FM150 is too long. For now, they are planning on referring customers to us since we have all the lengths worked out. I sent them an email on Friday regarding the possibility of supplying them directly with the correct length hose so that customers can receive their engine all set to go. This is still very preliminary, so I am not sure how that will all pan out.

For those that choose to utilize our Firewall Forward hose packages in lieu of the stock hoses.......They are custom built with a lead time of 3-4 days to shipment. This allows us to build each hose package to the correct custom lengths to fit whichever combination of components builders choose to utilize on their aircraft.

We currently support the following on the RV-14/14A

1. The stock factory configuration
2. The Silverhawk (stock) and FM150 Fuel servos
3. Standard, Single, and Dual PMAG setups
4. Both Garmin and Dynon avionics packages as it relates to the manifold pressure hose sensor.

If anyone has any questions, please feel free to contact us.

As always, thank you to all the builders who helped us with fit verifications to make sure we can support all these different component combinations.

Have a great weekend and Happy Building
Steve
 
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I installed the kit from AFP this morning and all went well and fits correctly. Easily done in a couple of hours.
oER.jpg


Sharp eyes will see I only have temporary nuts holding on the FM-150. I will install the locknuts after I confirm all looks good with my tech counselor.
 
The spacer between the sump and the servo, in the picture, appears to be balsa sandwiched between two thin sheets of aluminum (Mallite)? If this is true, I would think the lack of compressive strength would be an issue.
 
What is the purpose of the spacer?

If it is required, than it appears that the hex rod for the mixture is too short. It looks like the rod end only has 2-3 threads engaging in the hex rod.

And I agree with Dan... put some safety washers on the rod end bolts.
 
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...and put some 970's on those carefully gooped rod ends ;)

The kit has the larger 970 flat washers prior to the end nuts and they are slightly larger than the center of the ball end so they should safely capture in the event the ball fails. I think I have some even larger 970s somewhere that I can put on as an alternative.

The threaded end on the extension is quite long and while I did not count actual turns (maybe I will go back and do so) there are probably 10-12 threads inside the extension tube. If I have one criticism it would be that the extension tube could be a little longer to have less of the threaded end sticking out of the tube.

As far as the spacer, it is a phenolic piece and is needed to keep the mechanism from hitting the sump prior to full forward movement. The FM-150 needs some clearance behind it when it is mounted in this orientation and the sump shape does not allow proper operation without interference.
 
Did the spacer come from AFP? I had not thought about rotating the servo, looks like the best way to hook up the cables. I have a ECI sump that is a little different but running cables the same way should work.
 
Did the spacer come from AFP? I had not thought about rotating the servo, looks like the best way to hook up the cables. I have a ECI sump that is a little different but running cables the same way should work.

The phenolic spacer is from AFP, Don can also machine you one from aluminum.
 
I have a Thunderbolt/FM150 combination too. I ordered the mod kit and opened it up today.

I installed mine and did it without the spacer. I was worried that the snorkel would not fit right because the phenolic spacer pushes the FM150 about 3/8 inch more forward. I also didn't want to change the engine bolts out; installing the FM150 with standard washer/stars/nuts has plenty of thread length without the spacer. With the spacer you have to change out to 2" studs.

It didn't seem to affect the controls by being bolted up to the sump without the spacer but I'll take a closer look based on the comment above. Clearances looked fine to my first look.

So if I'm wanting to install the mod kit as AFS intended, with the longer studs and the spacer -> does anyone know what that does to the snorkel fit?
 
Looked this AM. Sure enough there is interference with the sump. I?ll be adding the spacer. Any feedback on if the snorkel is a problem?
 
Here is a pic of the mechanism clearance with the spacer. the arm will hit the sump without the spacer.
oEG.jpg


Larger 970 washers installed on the rod ends
oEy.jpg


I also removed the threaded end at the mixture arm from the extension and there are 8 full turns of thread inside the rod but as I mentioned I would prefer the extension rod were slightly longer. I can adjust the control rod at the bracket but it's close to being maxed on length as is.

I have mocked up the snorkel but not done the final cutting and it does fit flush to the FM-150, the length is long enough that the difference in angle up at the air filter is very small and no issue with cowl clearance.


I have no idea why Halie rotated my pics..sorry
 
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Sorry if this is a hijack of this thread, please delete if you think it is so.

What are the advantage of Airflow performance servo over the skyhwaks that VANs provide.

My engine will be shipped in about a month and if there are enough advantages, I maybe able to change it.
 
What are the advantage of Airflow performance servo over the skyhwaks that VANs provide.

A little less "carb loss", the loss of manifold pressure due to intake restriction.

The bore designs are quite different. See Kitplanes, March 2016.
 
What is the difference between the Silver Hawk EX-5VA1 offered by Precision Airmotive and the AvStar AVX-5VA1 offered by Lycoming?

I'm sorry Carl, but I know very little about the AvStar units.
 
Thanks Dan. There appears to be a dearth of information about the AvStar units. I contacted them for maintenance info and they had none, but said they are in the process of formulating ICAs.

We support both the stock servo and the Thunderbolt/FM150 combination with our RV14 firewall forward hose kits.

It has been my experience that if you have any questions at all regarding the FM150, Don and the team at Airflow are very knowledgeable about their product line.

FWIW we have seen a large uptick in inquiries regarding the FM150 servo recently as well as a healthy amount of orders over the past two months for firewall forward hose kits with this combination.

Airflow now has the bracketry kits available to make the FM150 fit the RV14/14A.

We have all the dimensions to provide the firewall forward hose kits for the many different combinations that builders are utilizing. (Standard Servo versus FM150, Single PMAG, Dual PMAG, Standard Mags, and Dynon versus Garmin Sensors)

Have a great weekend and happy building,
Steve
 
Ok, I found the mounting issue. Do NOT mount the mixture control bracket facing backwards as in the picture in the instructions, mount it facing forward like the throttle cable bracket and that gets you about an extra inch forward. The rod end into the extension tube now has a full 18 turns and the control cable has 15 turns into the back on the extension.
oE9.jpg
 
Changing out to the longer studs that come with the hardware kit. Got the old stud backed out with the double nut method with a lockwasher between nuts. I have the recommended thread locker Loctite 620.

Long time stud, first time stud changer......

How much loctite is needed?

I found in the service table of limits 25 in-lbs for 5/16 studs but they call it minimum driving torque. Does that mean when I get the stud to 25 in-lbs it’s in correctly or is there another metric to go by?
 
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Changing out to the longer studs that come with the hardware kit. Got the old stud backed out with the double nut method with a lockwasher between nuts. I have the recommended thread locker Loctite 620.

Long time stud, first time stud changer......

How much loctite is needed?

I found in the service table of limits 25 in-lbs for 5/16 studs but they call it minimum driving torque. Does that mean when I get the stud to 25 in-lbs it?s in correctly or is there another metric to go by?

In general, you only need loctite on 2-3 threads at the tip of the stud/bolt. Screw it in until the middle section (unthreaded) is just snugged against the sump.
 
Mixture control cable-exhaust pipes

Has anyone run into this issue and how did you resolve it? Photos would be great!

After installing the Air Flow 390 bracket kit I noticed that rubber coated mixture control cable is literally laying directly on top of the exhaust pipe a short distance from the bracket plate. The heat from exhaust pipe will quickly cause an issue with the rubber coated control cable. Additionally if the cable is bent upward 90 deg to avoid the hot exhaust pipe in this short space, I anticipate the bend will cause the control cable to bind and hard to operate.

Note the my exhaust pipes are standard from Vans, not the optional Vetterman pipes like I believe Chris Moon has on his RV14A in this thread.


Sorry I was unable to load a photo.

Richard
RV-14A, 390 Thunderbolt
.
.
 
I am about to install the FM-150 and I have a question. I assume that one needs to buy the following kit from Airflow performance.

https://airflowperformance.com/index.php/product/throttle-mixture-cable-bracket-kit/

This will have all the parts need to put on the FM-150 and the parts to hook up the controllers. Is there anything else I will need.

My real question is why did this kit not come with the engine from Lycoming? Or was I supposed to get it with the engine? It is confusing to me that this kit was not included from Lycoming when purchased.
 
I am about to install the FM-150 and I have a question. I assume that one needs to buy the following kit from Airflow performance.

https://airflowperformance.com/index.php/product/throttle-mixture-cable-bracket-kit/

This will have all the parts need to put on the FM-150 and the parts to hook up the controllers. Is there anything else I will need.

My real question is why did this kit not come with the engine from Lycoming? Or was I supposed to get it with the engine? It is confusing to me that this kit was not included from Lycoming when purchased.

The other thing you will need to do is modify the snorkel. The FM-150 servo needs a spacer between it and the engine to allow throttle and mixture cables to move through their full range. This moves the attach point of the snorkel forward from the standard Van's location. Look up Nova RV's excellent post on how to modify the snorkel (here: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=162451). I used this method and it worked well - I found the easiest way to get it right was to mount the snorkel while doing the first round of modification, get the position tacked into place with some strips of fiberglass, then remove and finish up. Of course this took many rounds of shaping and fitting as per usual. I put some photos here: https://turnerb14a.blogspot.com/2019/01/firewall-forward-work-starter-switch.html.

Final note on snorkel: I had to cut a lug off my starter to clear the snorkel, but I switched from the standard light-weight starter to the "NL" version (Jeff at Thunderbolt mounted for me prior to shipping) so may not apply in your case. It's not hard to do - I just used an oscillating blade type cutter and then ground it down/smoothed it out. Instructions are included in the starter manual IIRC.

Also - once you get the kit to mount throttle and mixture cables, carefully look at the routing of the cables - especially mixture - with exhaust in place. I had to tweak the mixture cable routing to keep clear of exhaust and used both firesleeve and one of Antisplat's heat shields to protect that cable. Also had to adjust the throttle and mixture arms on the servo to clear the rod ends and get full adjustment range on the controls - easy to do but lots of tweaking. Important note: the photos on my blog are not the final mounting locations - I was able to move the rod end to top of the arm by tweaking the arm angle so the photo in the post above is not how it ended up. I didn't like the angle of the rod end from the mounting plate as shown in photos on the blog.

As far as the "why" the only thing I can suggest is that some builders may want to take their own approach to this - like ordering different cables, etc. Note my mention of the mixture cable routing: if I had thought about this more before mounting the exhaust, I might have ordered a different length cable and routed it differently. It worked out fine but took some work to do.
 
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It sounds like the spacer is definitely needed regardless as to the cable setup. So the studs on the engine really need to be changed out and this could have been done by Lycoming.

Is the FM-150 really worth all the effort? I guess it is too late anyway, since I would have to replace the spider on the top. At least I think.
 
It sounds like the spacer is definitely needed regardless as to the cable setup. So the studs on the engine really need to be changed out and this could have been done by Lycoming.

Is the FM-150 really worth all the effort? I guess it is too late anyway, since I would have to replace the spider on the top. At least I think.

Jury still out for me on this question - I'm waiting until out of Phase I to balance the injectors as I have one cylinder leaner than others. However, engine is running great and performing well, and other than the extra time investment, the work isn't that hard. Airflow sent me the studs with the spacer and I followed their instructions to remove/replace. FYI I have a SnapOn stud remover/replacer set I'd be happy to let you borrow!
 
The only other thing you may find is the fuel hose from the servo to spider may be way too long. I contacted Lycoming about this on my Thunderbolt and they offered to send a replacement and hopefully now ship the correct length. I had already had one made by AS/TSFlightlines in my hose package.

The cable kit is well worth it but as mentioned the mixture cable is too long. I did a bit of an S curve under the panel but will shorten it if I ever replace it. I handled the snorkel differently. I cut off the flange with a band saw, cut off 3/8? and reglassed the flange back on. Just be sure to make square cuts. One nut on the starter was barely touching the snorkel so I just added some heat with a heat gun and pushed it in a small amount to clear.

Is it worth it? I thought the same thing. I have no idea...but the gold anodized components look cool :cool:

I had to have Tom send me a new one as well - forgot to mention this. But it's trivially easy to replace once you get the right length hose. I just sent Tom the old one marked with the correct length and he turned it around in a couple of days.
 
It sounds like the spacer is definitely needed regardless as to the cable setup. So the studs on the engine really need to be changed out and this could have been done by Lycoming.

Is the FM-150 really worth all the effort? I guess it is too late anyway, since I would have to replace the spider on the top. At least I think.

BE SURE to identify (and replace with a proper metal cap) the plastic cap on the spider. It's very easy to miss.
 
you mean the red plastic cap on the steel hose fitting? Why is that fitting there instead of a cap? Does that fitting have a use?
 
The only other thing you may find is the fuel hose from the servo to spider may be way too long. I contacted Lycoming about this on my Thunderbolt and they offered to send a replacement and hopefully now ship the correct length. I had already had one made by AS/TSFlightlines in my hose package.

The cable kit is well worth it but as mentioned the mixture cable is too long. I did a bit of an S curve under the panel but will shorten it if I ever replace it. I handled the snorkel differently. I cut off the flange with a band saw, cut off 3/8? and reglassed the flange back on. Just be sure to make square cuts. One nut on the starter was barely touching the snorkel so I just added some heat with a heat gun and pushed it in a small amount to clear.

Is it worth it? I thought the same thing. I have no idea...but the gold anodized components look cool :cool:

Regarding the Spider to servo hose. The one that Thunderbolt was shipping is too long and that has been a known issue. I didn't want to give incorrect information, so I just got off the phone with Jeff at Thunderbolt. He told me that they have not yet been able to get sourcing to swap over to the shorter hose length.

If you do end up with an engine with a Servo to spider line that is a bit too long, there is no need to take any measurements. We know the correct length and can fabricate that line for a perfect fit.

Here is what the shortened line looks like on the FM150

FM150%20Spider%20Hose.jpg


Have fun building!
 
We plug off the guage port since its not used. It is uses on some certified applications, but generally not experimentals. Instead of capping the nipple----that should have safety wire, why not just remove the nipple and install a 1/8 NPT hex plug. Simple, easy permanent, and you dont have to worry about a cap and safety wire.

Tom
 
We plug off the guage port since its not used. It is uses on some certified applications, but generally not experimentals. Instead of capping the nipple----that should have safety wire, why not just remove the nipple and install a 1/8 NPT hex plug. Simple, easy permanent, and you dont have to worry about a cap and safety wire.

Tom

I think I'll do just that - I'm ordering the plug today!
 
When I ordered my Thunderbolt, I had them include the AFP setup at the urging of a friend who specializes in engine overhauls and who's opinion I trust a lot. Since I was a fairly early adopter, I ran into the issues with the spacer being needed, the snorkel needing adjusting and the lack of install guidance (or parts) for the throttle and mixture cables. Several times I considered just going stock for ease of install reasons but kept with it and am happy I stuck with it. Is it better than stock? I really have no idea since I never ran one stock to compare but I will say the service and advice I have received from AFP has been outstanding as I made my way through installation and operation of the FM150 setup. For people deciding now, I would suggest the AFP option is nearly as easy install as a stock Silver hawk with parts and installation documentation both readily available. Granted, the mixture and throttle mounting parts are an extra expense ($222.50) over the Silver Hawk plus the cost of the shorter fuel line needed from the servo to the flow divider on top but these are available quickly from TS or Aircraft Specialty.
 
Chris helped us refine the rv14 firewall forward packages for the fm150 install. I can’t comment on the spacers and cables, but the 14/14a Firewall forward hose kits we developed in conjunction with the help of several builders are the most complete we have ever offered.

In addition to a shortened servo to spider hose, the FM150 also requires a different transducer to servo hose than stock. Many builders are running single or dual pmags on their engines. A backup alternator, upright oil filter adapter and the choice of avionics further affects the required hose lengths and adapters in subtle ways.

If you are looking to make any changes from the stock configuration (such as the fm150 being discussed) or just looking to upgrade your stock configuration hoses to an all firesleeved conductive Teflon kit with a 10 year Warranty, we will be happy to work with you to create a hose kit that perfectly matches your aircraft. We can help you with the list of stock items you won’t need to order if you choose to utilize a custom built hose package from Tom or I.


Have fun building
 
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I have all the hoses from Aircraft Specialty including the shorter line from the servo to the FM-150.

I was recently told that the hose nipple fitting with the red cap is for a hot start applications. Apparently it can be hooked to to blow the hot fuel out of the lines to refill with cool fuel from the tanks prior to starting.

To take off that fitting would require taking off the spider fitting. Can you get caps with safety wire holes drilled in them? Do they come that way in general? Or do you have to drill yourself?

The other question about safety wiring the cap. If a cap has to be safety wired, then why don't all the hose connections? They are the same compression fittings. Just curious.

Thanks
 
Ken---used to bavle to get the caps with the safety wire holes already drilled. Havnet used them in a long time---so I'd have to look. In early days of aviation, all the hose connections were wired. More modern fittings generally are not----but some warbird stuff we do are.

Tom
 
It appears that the two difference setups put the throttle bracket in different spots. The one as per the Airflow Performance puts the threads of the push cable at the end of the threads (or so it seems), while the other picture by chris puts the bracket such that the threads are in the middle. Any pros and cons to the difference in the bracket placement?
 
Ken, if you do as per the printed instructions there will be fewer threads to go inside the threaded rod end than if you flip that mounting bracket around. I counted and it's 8 turns vs 18 turns captured and to me was a much safer installation.
 
SO I mounted the FM 150. I was able to torque down the 2 on the left side using a crows foot, but how the heck do you torque the top right nut (co-pilots side) and the bottom right. I looked up a 3/8 torque wrench to 1/2" box wrench extension.

https://www.amazon.com/Stanley-Prot...ix=torque+wrench+adapter+1/2",aps,159&sr=8-46

But this will not work because the box wrench won't fit over the nut, since the space is so tight.

I must be missing something simple, but I can 't think of it off hand.

And taking the studs out was very easy with a $13 stud remover from AutoZone.

thanks
ken
 
We have a customer who has his 14A FWF hose kit with the Std AS1072 firesleeve still in the original box. He decided on a configuration change on his aircraft, which necessitated new hoses.

As such, we now have available an uninstalled RV14A firewall forward fuel and oil hose kit. FM150 Servo, Dual PMAG, Garmin, setup for a B and C backup alternator and B and C upright oil filter adapter. Retail is $879.95.

It was built in Nov 2019. Never been installed. But, we won't put it back on the shelf and call it new, since it has been living in a box for a few months. Comes with a 10 year hose guaranty. Available for $699 to the first builder who is interested. - FOUND A NEW HOME


Happy Building,
Steve
 
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