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Aerobatics in a RV-8?

G

Galenkillam

Member
Hi, I am new to VAF so go easy please. I am interested in building / purchasing an aerobatic a/c as well as a traveler. I am thinking of a RV-8. I live in WI and would like to find someone with a RV (maybe an 8) to view, fly, discuss, gain some perspective, .......from the experienced. If I go the purchase route, I would look to those who have built to give pointers on inspection of said a/c.

If anyone has experience or comments in this area, I would appreciate them also.

My list of needs:
Aerobatic
2 Place
Traveler

So many more questions.

Thanks in advance.

Call or email me if you have a few minutes.
Galen
920-246-5346
[email protected]
 
Aerobatics in the RV-8

Hi Galen: I've not flown my RV-8 yet (hope to soon!) but have flown 3 other -8's one with full inverted systems. I find the plane does wonderful gentleman's aerobatics including hammerheads, loops, rolls, Cuban 8's, spins, wing overs etc. It is stressed to only 3 negative G's so I'm not enthused about outside maneuvers in the airplane. It does fly inverted quite nicely, not requiring nearly as high angle of attack inverted as I has supposed it would need. The controls are nicely harmonized and roll rate is very adequate, if not like a Pitts or other dedicated acro mount. At 1600# aerobatic weight, most -8's can carry 90' fuel and reasonably sized pilot and pax. Very fun to fly and an excellent X-C mount as well. Give me a call at 414-332-7897 if you'd like to talk about your needs and my (limited) experience with -8 aerobatics. Bill
 
Galen, you should define your aerobatic requirements... The -8 is plenty strong and does "fun" aerobatics well, but it's not a competition level aerobatic mount. I'd describe it as a good cross country airplane with some aerobatic capability. Which was exactly the opposite of my last airplane.
 
sandifer said:
When are people who have no experience with competition acro going to learn to stop saying this? :rolleyes:
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Agree, it's a 6 G airplane and is capable of a lot more than most pilots are willing to push it to.

For the OP.... My wife and I top off the tanks, load up weeks worth of clothes, and can be anywhere within 800 miles on a tank of gas with our 8.

In August I flew it from NV to NJ in a day and a half, on about $500 worth of gas.

For the aerobatic, traveling, cost effective, or fternoon putt-around.... You'd be hard pressed to find a better airplane. I can get into < 2000'strips with ease, and can land at the big airports with the speed to flow right in with faster traffic.
 
Originally Posted by Toobuilder View Post
The -8 is plenty strong and does "fun" aerobatics well, but it's not a competition level aerobatic mount.

When are people who have no experience with competition acro going to learn to stop saying this?
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I do have Competition Experience (Std & Int) and do agree to an extent with the first part.

If you primary aim is to go into competition, and work your way up the categories, then IMHO an RV is not the way to go. Fine at Standard, but I cannot imagine Inverted spinning an RV at 2000', let alone in an eye pleasing manner for the judges :eek:

If you want an all round aircraft, then includes having some fun in the lower categories / gaining some experience / insight, then yes, the RV can work.

Ideal would be to get an "RV Category" in the competitions that worked around the strengths and weaknesses...
 
Andy Hill said:
Ideal would be to get an "RV Category" in the competitions that worked around the strengths and weaknesses...
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Have to jump in here! The IAC Primary and Sportsman categories are easily flown by an RV-8 with no inverted systems. I have full inverted systems and hope to compete at the Intermediate level before long. The plane is capable, not sure about the pilot.:D
 
RV class

I flew my 8 in Completion for a couple years, had a ball. Only finances prevents me from continuing. It does fine in Sportsman but you have to work (practice) harder than the Pitts/Extra crowd.

There has been a lot of talk the pat five years about an RV class but with the exception of a couple contests, it has not come to pass. Those Contests that have done it were not sanctioned by IAC but I'm sure they had fun and good competition.

Scott A Jordan
N733JJ
 
Galenkillam said:
My list of needs:
Aerobatic
2 Place
Traveler
Click to expand...
Where does acquisition & operating cost fit in this list? Cost no factor, I might go elsewhere. Baggage capacity? Speed?

Or have you decided on the RV-8 and just need some validation?
 
N733JJ said:
I flew my 8 in Completion for a couple years, had a ball. Only finances prevents me from continuing. It does fine in Sportsman but you have to work (practice) harder than the Pitts/Extra crowd.

There has been a lot of talk the pat five years about an RV class but with the exception of a couple contests, it has not come to pass. Those Contests that have done it were not sanctioned by IAC but I'm sure they had fun and good competition.

Scott A Jordan
N733JJ
Click to expand...

I went to Scott's competitions as his GIB, support staff (more fun for me then him :D) and Judge at times (again, more fun for me). I can tell you that the RV-8 gives you the best of both worlds. You're able to compete and get to and from the events quicker and burn less gas then the others with Pitts, Eagles and Extra's.

Of course, if you want the hard core stuff then the RV isn't going to cut it.

From watching it from the ground Scott did everything the other guys did.....but maybe not at 8 G's :eek:
 
Thanks. I am looking for gentlemens aerobatics for sure. I am just getting started and they have put the passion back into flying for me. Cost is a factor for sure, I have a budget like everyone, yet we fly so.. Priorities I guess. One thing I should have mentioned is my better half thinks steep turns are 30 deg of bank so a gentle traveler is also key.
 
I have not decided on an RV 8 and am open for suggestions. I have a 172 which I will keep as a kid trainer. Please suggest your thoughts if they go beyond the van series
 
sandifer said:
When are people who have no experience with competition acro going to learn to stop saying this? :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

...Perhaps as soon as all of the people I know in competition aerobatics stop telling it to me.

That said "competition aerobatics" is a very broad term. I was in error in using such a broad terms. As for personal experience, I can offer that my last airplane (Hiperbipe) is now widely considered a marginally competitive mount in Intermediate, yet will rip the heart out of any RV in aerobatic competition or dogfighting. With both airplanes in my hangar for several years, I had plenty of occasion to jump from one to the other. And when I needed to go out and pull some "G", the RV was left in the hangar every time. So when I think of "competition" acro- I'm thinking Sean Tucker, not Bob Hoover.

Moot point, since the OP wants "gentleman's" acro, which the -8 is more than capable of.
 
Andy Hill said:
If you primary aim is to go into competition, and work your way up the categories, then IMHO an RV is not the way to go. Fine at Standard, but I cannot imagine Inverted spinning an RV at 2000', let alone in an eye pleasing manner for the judges :eek:
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We're not talking about the RV being used to take someone through all levels of competition as competitively as possible. The Pitts isn't even good for that anymore. We're talking about doing the best you can with what you have. Every airplane has limits. RVs are perfectly well-suited to Primary and Sportsman. Just because they are not good for Advanced and Unlimited doesn't mean they should be discouraged from participating. That's like telling all the Decathlon pilots that their airplane is "not the way to go" because they are not suited to flying the upper categories. A Decathlon has won Sportsman at Nationals several times in the past few years, including this year.

Regarding inverted spinning an RV, there's nothing special about that. Bill here (RV-4) has inverted spin in his Free because it spins a little cleaner inverted.

N733JJ said:
I flew my 8 in Completion...It does fine in Sportsman but you have to work (practice) harder than the Pitts/Extra crowd.
Click to expand...

Scott- I must disagree. At the Sportsman level it is truly about the piloting and not the aircraft- assuming the aircraft has sufficient performance. With inverted systems, the RV certainly does. Each airplane, RV, Pitts, Extra, etc. has qualities that the pilot must learn to manage properly. The airplane truly does not do it for you at this level. If you have good skills, you will be just as successful in an RV vs. an Extra at this level.

The Pitts' and Extras take just as much pilot skill when it comes to setting accurate 45 and vertical lines, flying round looping segments, centering rolls on a line, stopping spins on heading, flying perfect rolls, flying good hammers, maintaining situational awareness and box position- all the things that determine your scores.
 
Toobuilder said:
That said "competition aerobatics" is a very broad term.
Click to expand...

This is the first I've heard of this. To me (and most acro pilots) "competition aerobatics" means something specific- as in a competition, contest flying- IAC style. That what you are implying when referring to "competition acro". BTW, Sean Tucker hasn't flown competition acro since the 80's. He flies airshow acro now. Huge difference.

Toobuilder said:
As for personal experience, I can offer that my last airplane (Hiperbipe) is now widely considered a marginally competitive mount in Intermediate, yet will rip the heart out of any RV in aerobatic competition...
Click to expand...

Not sure what you mean by that, but I'd love to take that bet. :) But I can tell you if we're talking about actual aerobatic contest flying, it would come down to the pilot, not which airplane they're flying.
 
sandifer said:
This is the first I've heard of this. To me (and most acro pilots) "competition aerobatics" means something specific- as in a competition, contest flying- IAC style. That what you are implying when referring to "competition acro". BTW, Sean Tucker hasn't flown competition acro since the 80's. He flies airshow acro now. Huge difference...
Click to expand...

This is getting into semantics now. You're suggesting that an RV is capable of flying a contest sequence without pulling the wings off. I fully agree with that. Further, you're suggesting that you can fly an RV in competition and have a bunch of fun. I also agree.

However, if one is looking to "compete" i.e. to "be competitive" or "win" as the primary (or high importance) goal of the airplane, then there are better choices than an RV. I intend to race my Rocket at Reno one of these days, but I have no illusion of being "competitive"... If the goal is to be a race pilot with any chance of winning, the Rocket is not the airplane.

Yes, you can fit almost any airplane into a "mission" if you compromise enough, but when looking at buying an airplane for the mission, get the right one. As I said before, my Hiperbipe was great at aerobatics but only "good" at cross country. My "mission" is exactly the opposite - so I sold the HB and bought a more suitable airplane.

Fortunately, it sounds like the OP and the -8 will fit nicely.
 
Toobuilder said:
However, if one is looking to "compete" i.e. to "be competitive" or "win" as the primary (or high importance) goal of the airplane, then there are better choices than an RV.
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You are still speaking from the perspective of someone with no experience, involvement, and understanding of aerobatic competition and the category structure. You are making incorrect assumptions. We just don't need those with no experience making discouraging comments about RVs in this sport. There's a lot of potential for RVs in this sport. Unfortunately, the numbers of folks who have good experience and perspective on this sport are a tiny fraction of one percent of pilots out there who influence other pilots by what they say- often in the wrong way. I'm just trying to get good information out there.

There is no such thing as a "best choice" airplane when it comes to acro competition - especially at the lower levels. The RV has just as much chance at winning Sportsman as an Extra. It may be hard for those not involved in this sport to understand this. Your air racing analogy does not relate at all.

The contest results speak for themselves. I won't bother going to look for them again. Looking forward to seeing Ron and his -8 at our contests again.

And I don't think we have a semantics issue. Let me once again be clear that by "competition acro", I mean IAC contests and their associated style of flying. I'm not aware of any other kinds of contests, or competitions involving aerobatics in this country. Plenty of you are qualified to comment about basic aerobatics in general, but on the subject of competition acro, let's keep it specific so we don't have those not involved in the sport negatively influencing others on what it's about.
 
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sandifer said:
There is no such thing as a "best choice" airplane when it comes to acro competition - especially at the lower levels. The RV has just as much chance at winning Sportsman as an Extra. It may be hard for those not involved in this sport to understand this. Your air racing analogy does not relate at all.

The contest results speak for themselves. I won't bother going to look for them again. Looking forward to seeing Ron and his -8 at our contests again.

And I don't think we have a semantics issue. Let me once again be clear that by "competition acro", I mean IAC contests and their associated style of flying. I'm not aware of any other kinds of contests, or competitions involving aerobatics in this country. Plenty of you are qualified to comment about basic aerobatics in general, but on the subject of competition acro, let's keep it specific so we don't have those not involved in the sport negatively influencing others on what it's about.
Click to expand...

Sandifer is correct. I've flown IAC competitive aerobatics up through the Advanced level, owned a Pitts S-2B, instructed in everything from Extras, Decathlons, etc. to RVs. I'm also a National level judge and have given seminars, written articles, and served as an IAC chapter board member and contest director.

Roll rate and vertical line length have no bearing on judging criteria whatsoever. I've seen a guy in a stock W-670 powered Stearman beat one in an Extra 300S flying Sportsman. When I was flying Intermediate in the Pitts, I routinely got schooled by a pilot in a Great Lakes.

While I'm not crazy about snap rolling RVs, the aerobatic RV models are more than capable of flying with and beating anyone flying anything out there in Primary, Sportsman, and Intermediate. Advanced and Unlimited would probably be beyond the capabilities of the aircraft, but then my Pitts S-2B is also becoming marginal for Advanced, especially at places where the density altitude is higher. You can make it work, but it's a lot of... well, work.

In competition, success is determined by the capabilities and execution demonstrated by the pilot, not the aircraft.

RVs are a little different from most of the other airplanes flown in competition in the sense that they are very low on drag and build speed relatively quickly when pointed downhill. But as long as that factor is known and planned for, I think the RV series is an excellent airplane for both competition and non-competitive aerobatics. I love the way the efficient airframe preserves energy between figures.

P.S. The fact that it does build up speed quickly when descending is yet another excellent argument for pursuing quality instruction in aerobatics.

--Ron
 
Low Pass said:
Where does acquisition & operating cost fit in this list? Cost no factor, I might go elsewhere. Baggage capacity? Speed?

Or have you decided on the RV-8 and just need some validation?
Click to expand...

Interested to see where you're going with this. Can't really think of a better all around airframe unless you're thinking T-34/SF-260 route, in which case costs go through the roof quick.
 
Scott- I must disagree. At the Sportsman level it is truly about the piloting and not the aircraft- assuming the aircraft has sufficient performance. With inverted systems, the RV certainly does. Each airplane, RV, Pitts, Extra, etc. has qualities that the pilot must learn to manage properly. The airplane truly does not do it for you at this level. If you have good skills, you will be just as successful in an RV vs. an Extra at this level.

Sandier - The Pitts' and Extras take just as much pilot skill when it comes to setting accurate 45 and vertical lines, flying round looping segments, centering rolls on a line, stopping spins on heading, flying perfect rolls, flying good hammers, maintaining situational awareness and box position- all the things that determine your scores.[/QUOTE]
 
We need an AEROBATIC forum

All,

I have been following this thread as RV aerobatics has always been a subject which is shrouded in mystery. A surprising number of RV pilots have never turned their airplane upside down and a surprising few have explored the edges of the flight envelope. Whether you are interested in aerobatic competition or not, I believe that everyone can benefit by learning to fly aerobatics. It just makes you a better pilot! Of course the usual caveats apply: Do it with proper instruction, at a safe altitude, away from populated areas, etc.

I have flown in a few contests at the sportsman level and intend on doing a lot more as I will be retiring from Team AeroDynamix at the end of this air show season. I recently attended a IAC Judges School which was taught by Charlie Harrison (chief judge at the IAC nationals) and our own Eric Sandifer. I intend to become a regional IAC judge but more importantly I wanted to learn more about how the aerobatic figures are scored so I could improve my own performances. I am amazed at how much there is to learn and sad that I will not live long enough to learn it all! :D

I think that there is enough interest in RV aerobatics that we deserve to have a forum section devoted to the subject. (DR, can we do that?)
 
N733JJ said:
Scott- I must disagree. At the Sportsman level it is truly about the piloting and not the aircraft- assuming the aircraft has sufficient performance. With inverted systems, the RV certainly does. Each airplane, RV, Pitts, Extra, etc. has qualities that the pilot must learn to manage properly. The airplane truly does not do it for you at this level. If you have good skills, you will be just as successful in an RV vs. an Extra at this level.

Sandier - The Pitts' and Extras take just as much pilot skill when it comes to setting accurate 45 and vertical lines, flying round looping segments, centering rolls on a line, stopping spins on heading, flying perfect rolls, flying good hammers, maintaining situational awareness and box position- all the things that determine your scores.
Click to expand...

Scott- check your post, none of your comments came through.
 
Baggage Capacity

Low Pass said:
Where does acquisition & operating cost fit in this list? Cost no factor, I might go elsewhere. Baggage capacity? Speed?

Or have you decided on the RV-8 and just need some validation?
Click to expand...

One of the beauties of the -8 that isn't talked about too often is its surprising amount of baggage capacity.

Here's an example of the gear my girlfriend and I can stow away when we go camping:

image.jpg


This is one of the reasons that I'm strongly opposed to people closing off the forward baggage compartment "deep well" to use as an alternate location for the battery.

Skylor
 
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Are you opposed to the deep well being use as the battery location for your plane or other peoples planes?
skylor said:
This is one of the reasons that I'm strongly opposed to people closing off the forward baggage compartment "deep well" to use as an alternate location for the battery.

Skylor
Click to expand...
 
Battery Location

rockwoodrv9 said:
Are you opposed to the deep well being use as the battery location for your plane or other peoples planes?
Click to expand...

It's something that I recommend new builders not do because there's two other good locations for the battery and I feel that it's a real shame to give up the storage space.

Skylor
 
Concur, we fly our 8 up to our cabin (dirt strip at 7800 feet elevation) regularly and I'm amazed at the amount of baggage we can carry. Forward baggage compartment also lets me keep the cg where I want it. Full gas, two adults, dog in my wife's lap, and 100+ lbs of baggage if we want. Great fun for aerobatics too (but not when it's loaded like that)!
 
Just one more data point on aerobatics in RVs. Our local IAC chapter just had a contest last weekend. We had 3 first time pilots at the event. Everyone worked hard to make sure any questions they had were explained and make them feel welcome. I flew my -7 in sportsman and felt if the pilot did his job the airplane is not an issue. By the way, no inverted fuel or oil, but fuel injection, non aerobitac Constant speed prop. A RV-8 should be easier to fly well due to centerline pilot seat.
Competing is not what most people think of when they say aerobatics. I tend to need a goal to focus on and competion works for me. Get some good training and have fun exploring 3 D flight.
RVs make fine and fun airplanes and provide a lot of options for your to explore.
Dave
 
RhinoDrvr said:
Interested to see where you're going with this. Can't really think of a better all around airframe unless you're thinking T-34/SF-260 route, in which case costs go through the roof quick.
Click to expand...

That, or the even more expensive options. If price is no factor, I'll get a two-place P-51. I didn't know the OPs financial constraints - he didn't mention them. They drive my aviation activities significantly.
 
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