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Legally Heating a Hangar

mfleming

Well Known Member
Patron
So I purchased a hangar recently :D

One of the improvements I would like to do is install a fixed vented propane heater.

Because I will be renting the hangar out until I am ready to move my -7 project into the hangar I applied for a commercial lease. Oregon requires a commercial lease if ANY revenue is being made off of the hangar.

Anyway, while researching heaters I came across NFPA 409. This states that heaters must be at least 10' above the wing of the aircraft.

I might get the heater 10' above the wing of my -7 but the rule says 10' above any aircraft that can fit in the hangar (I'm paraphrasing). Not happening :(

I read all about portable heaters...I'm interested in the fixed variety.

So, Do I have to comply with this NFPA 409?
What is everyone else doing with hangars with lower ceilings and heat??


The top of my door is 12', the door opens to about 10' 8"... No way to meet the rules as far as I can see :eek:
door.jpg
 
Your hangar is pretty big. We have an 1800 sq. ft. hangar attached to our home. I went with a 125K BTU Reznor heater, much like Tooch's. You will need to run electric and gas lines to it and provide vent for exhaust. Our ceilings are 14 ft. high. and we mounted the heater in a corner to blow the warm air diagonally across the hangar. This kept the heater away from plane wings, so I don't think the 10 ft. rule is an issue.

These types of "Modine Style" heaters are very efficient. We heat are hangar to 45 degrees during Wisconsin winters and can quickly heat to 65 or more when needed. Minimal impact on our insulated hangar, gas usage wise.

Roberta
 
Open vs. Closed

I?m not an expert in such things so be sure to verify my thoughts... but in reading the standard, section 5.12.2 requires open flame heaters to meet the 10? requirement of section 5.12.5. If you use a closed-flame heater, section 5.12.5 does not apply and you can install the heater below the 10? minimum. From what I understand, closed-flame heaters don?t use room air for combustion (they use outside air), so the explosion risk from fuel vapor is lower in the hangar... I assume that is the reasoning for the regs being written the way they are. I was reading the 2016 version of NFPA 409 if that makes a difference
 
If the rule is inflexible, you could do an end run around it by installing a 'packet' style central unit just outside the building. You don't need to run extensive ducting; just get the outlet and return through the wall or roof. One upside, if it's on the ground, is simpler maintenance in the future.
 
Look into a mini split system.
Electric utilizing heat pump and inverter technology. Plus you get ac for summer. Initial cost is more and need 220 volt single phase power.
They are pretty efficient.
 
Look into a mini split system.
Electric utilizing heat pump and inverter technology. Plus you get ac for summer. Initial cost is more and need 220 volt single phase power.
They are pretty efficient.

I have a 30k BTU mini split that keeps my 2500 sqft hangar at 60 degF.
If it is really cold, like it has been lately, it might dip down to 55.
Heat pumps work very well in our relatively mild NW climate. Very efficient. Might be less practice on your side of the range, but don’t overlook the option.

Regardless of the heater type, you typically will be required for work done in “commercial” space like this to be permitted in most jurisdictions. Your contractor will tylically pull the permits and then must meet code. If you want to go rouge and do it yourself, without permits, you run a liability risk, say your heater burns down your hangar, your renters plane, other hangars.... etc....
 
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Your hangar is pretty big. We have an 1800 sq. ft. hangar attached to our home. I went with a 125K BTU Reznor heater, much like Tooch's. You will need to run electric and gas lines to it and provide vent for exhaust. Our ceilings are 14 ft. high. and we mounted the heater in a corner to blow the warm air diagonally across the hangar. This kept the heater away from plane wings, so I don't think the 10 ft. rule is an issue.

These types of "Modine Style" heaters are very efficient. We heat are hangar to 45 degrees during Wisconsin winters and can quickly heat to 65 or more when needed. Minimal impact on our insulated hangar, gas usage wise.

Roberta

This may be the way I go if I find out a closed flame heater is exempt from the 10' rule.

I?m not an expert in such things so be sure to verify my thoughts... but in reading the standard, section 5.12.2 requires open flame heaters to meet the 10? requirement of section 5.12.5. If you use a closed-flame heater, section 5.12.5 does not apply and you can install the heater below the 10? minimum. From what I understand, closed-flame heaters don?t use room air for combustion (they use outside air), so the explosion risk from fuel vapor is lower in the hangar... I assume that is the reasoning for the regs being written the way they are. I was reading the 2016 version of NFPA 409 if that makes a difference

I'm looking at the section on Class III hangars 8.3.* but the verbiage is identical to the Class II section your referring to.

I'm hoping you're correct that the 10' rule only applies to open flame heaters.

I have a 30k BTU mini split that keeps my 2500 sqft hangar at 60 degF.
If it is really cold, like it has been lately, it might dip down to 55.
Heat pumps work very well in our relatively mild NW climate. Very efficient. Might be less practice on your side of the range, but don?t overlook the option.

Regardless of the heater type, you typically will be required for work done in ?commercial? space like this to be permitted in most jurisdictions. Your contractor will tylically pull the permits and then must meet code. If you want to go rouge and do it yourself, without permits, you run a liability risk, say your heater burns down your hangar, your renters plane, other hangars.... etc....

10-4 on following the rules!

I'm hoping to install an infrared radiant heater. I'm not sure if the mini split heaters would work in this high altitude cold climate I live in here in Joseph, OR.
 
Consensus Standard

The NPFA Code is a consensus standard. Unless your local municipality has codified it locally, compliance is voluntary. Check with your local building code inspectors or FD to see if the NFPA code is binding. However, compliance is usually a good idea.
 
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The NPFA Code is a consensus standard. Unless your local municipality has codified it locally, compliance is voluntary. Check with your local building code inspectors or FD to see if the NFPA code is binding. However, compliance is usually a good idea.

Thanks, this was the best answer yet :D

I just googled "is NFPA standard binding?". Apparently it's not :rolleyes:

I'm pretty sure my locality has not codified the NFPA standard.

My main concern, besides the NFPA standard, is that my insurance company agrees the installation is proper. I bet they'll be happy if the installation meets local codes.
 
Be a bit careful. The AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) can be city, county, and state. It can a long, circuitous path figuring out who the AHJ is, along with what version of the code that is "law".
 
My two cents worth

Disclaimer, I'm not a contractor but have a fair amount of rebuilding here in Taxyafornia. I've always gotten along well with the Build Department Inspectors. I choose to everything 'with permit'.

Assuming that your hanger is well enough insulated that heating it would work well, here is what I recommend. It's worth at least two cents, maybe three!

Can you accept a NO as an answer from the building department, local hanger manager, fire department, airport authorities, etc? If the answer is that you can accept a NO, then I recommend the following. You may stir up a hornets nest of unofficial opinion and official government opinion but you can see it through. Opinion is worth little so get it in writing.

In my opinion, it is wise to play it by the book. You will find that almost everyone has an opinion but I wouldn't install anything that the Building and Fire Department Inspectors wouldn't approve. You need to be standing in firm legal ground before you pay anyone to start your project.

First, check around the airport and gather as much intel as you can from those who have already installed heaters. Ask questions - including, when did you install this heater set up? Which contractor installed it? How much did it 'really cost'. Let those other hanger owners know that you intend to have a 'permitted installation'. Find out if a heater is allowed in your type of hanger.

Find a well liked heating/cooling contractor in your area, preferably one who has done a heater of the same type in a hanger located in whichever city or county issues the permit and employs the building inspectors for your area. Make sure that your contractor is legit and that he has a good relationship with the Build Department and it's inspectors (Very important).

Ask that contractor to show you you an example of his/her work. When you get to the 'show and tell' location, ask that contractor to show you the actual permit for that job. My experience here in taxyafornia, the permit to build/install, modify a commercial building must be displayed inside of the building. As a Fire Inspector Inspector for the Los Angeles Fire Department, I always looked for that permit. In theory, the permit lends a certain amount of legitimacy to the construction/modification of the building.

Get several bids if possible. Tell the contractors exactly what you need - how much heat, etc. If you don't have an answer to that question then you need to do further intel at the airport if possible. Listen carefully to what the prospective contractor has to say. I assume that you don't want a system that would take your hanger from 40 degrees to 45 degrees. If you want 40 to 65 then tell the contractor up front. Is that added 25 degree increase even possible inside of your hanger?

Don't necessarily take the lowest bid. Take into consideration that the general public thinks that anyone who can afford an airplane and a hanger is 'rich'. You may find that the various bids vary considerably. Find out why.

After doing your homework as above and it all looks good, take a trip to the Building Department and talk to the Inspectors and the Boss Inspector there. Make sure that what you want to do is ok with them. Tell them which contractor that you have 'tentatively chosen' and watch their body language as well as listen to what the say. They probably can't give you a definitive yes or no about your chosen contractor but definitely take a shot at getting at least a little feedback from them. Body language may or may not be a reliable indicator but you are still gathering intel - right? Make it clear to them that you are doing a 'permitted' job.

If everything is good then sit down with your contractor and get everything down in writing. When you do this, remember that he is the 'expert' but you are 'paying him' to do your work. Insist on seeing 'AN APPROVED SET OF PLANS FROM THE BUILDING DEPARTMENT'. Have the contractor make a copy for your records. This may come in very usefully in the future. If I wanted to buy your hanger, I would insist on seeing an approved (approval stamped on the plans) set of plans before we sit down and talk $$$$$.

Assume nothing!!! Get everything in writing. I always try to get a firm date of start and completion. Some contractors tend to take on too many jobs and work at a few of them at a time while essentially ignoring the rest for later. Make it clear that you want a 'permitted' job.

If you can't accept a NO from the various government entities, then good luck to you. A bootlegged heater may be cheaper but you may be sorry later. Remember, you are renting out your 'commercial' hanger. Your insurance person may want to see the permits!

Additional thought - since I live here in Taxyafornia, I know nothing about heating the hanger with hot water pipes concreted into the floor but I wonder if this is a valid solution to your dilemma? Could a contractor lay piping over your existing hanger floor and then concrete over the piping? My guess is that you would have to have an additional layer of concrete of at least 6-8" but I really don't like this solution because I don't know if would work well. How do you 'anchor' the second concrete floor to the first one?

Instead, you would likely have to tear up the existing floor in order to install this type of floor heating correctly. This solution would place the heating device outside of your hanger - but I am guessing that this alternative may be quite expensive as you already have a concrete hanger floor. Right?

As I said, all of the above is worth maybe at least 3 cents but considering what it cost you to read it, it's a bargain! As an aside, I am very interested to hear which solution you choose and how well you did. Best to you.
 
Be a bit careful. The AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) can be city, county, and state. It can a long, circuitous path figuring out who the AHJ is, along with what version of the code that is "law".

Interesting...I will check this out.

Luckily, I'm in rural Oregon. My city is 1400 strong and I'm friends with the mayor...as is everyone else, she runs the local Brew Pub ;)

The county is a whopping 7000 strong and the clerks office is super friendly :)

And the Oregon Department of Aviation answers the phone with knowledgeable person who knows my name :D

OK, I'll stop gushing about Oregon :p
 
Disclaimer, I'm not a contractor but have a fair amount of rebuilding here in Taxyafornia. I've always gotten along well with the Build Department Inspectors. I choose to everything 'with permit'.

Assuming that your hanger is well enough insulated that heating it would work well, here is what I recommend. It's worth at least two cents, maybe three!

Can you accept a NO as an answer from the building department, local hanger manager, fire department, airport authorities, etc? If the answer is that you can accept a NO, then I recommend the following. You may stir up a hornets nest of unofficial opinion and official government opinion but you can see it through. Opinion is worth little so get it in writing.

In my opinion, it is wise to play it by the book. You will find that almost everyone has an opinion but I wouldn't install anything that the Building and Fire Department Inspectors wouldn't approve. You need to be standing in firm legal ground before you pay anyone to start your project.

First, check around the airport and gather as much intel as you can from those who have already installed heaters. Ask questions - including, when did you install this heater set up? Which contractor installed it? How much did it 'really cost'. Let those other hanger owners know that you intend to have a 'permitted installation'. Find out if a heater is allowed in your type of hanger.

Find a well liked heating/cooling contractor in your area, preferably one who has done a heater of the same type in a hanger located in whichever city or county issues the permit and employs the building inspectors for your area. Make sure that your contractor is legit and that he has a good relationship with the Build Department and it's inspectors (Very important).

Ask that contractor to show you you an example of his/her work. When you get to the 'show and tell' location, ask that contractor to show you the actual permit for that job. My experience here in taxyafornia, the permit to build/install, modify a commercial building must be displayed inside of the building. As a Fire Inspector Inspector for the Los Angeles Fire Department, I always looked for that permit. In theory, the permit lends a certain amount of legitimacy to the construction/modification of the building.

Get several bids if possible. Tell the contractors exactly what you need - how much heat, etc. If you don't have an answer to that question then you need to do further intel at the airport if possible. Listen carefully to what the prospective contractor has to say. I assume that you don't want a system that would take your hanger from 40 degrees to 45 degrees. If you want 40 to 65 then tell the contractor up front. Is that added 25 degree increase even possible inside of your hanger?

Don't necessarily take the lowest bid. Take into consideration that the general public thinks that anyone who can afford an airplane and a hanger is 'rich'. You may find that the various bids vary considerably. Find out why.

After doing your homework as above and it all looks good, take a trip to the Building Department and talk to the Inspectors and the Boss Inspector there. Make sure that what you want to do is ok with them. Tell them which contractor that you have 'tentatively chosen' and watch their body language as well as listen to what the say. They probably can't give you a definitive yes or no about your chosen contractor but definitely take a shot at getting at least a little feedback from them. Body language may or may not be a reliable indicator but you are still gathering intel - right? Make it clear to them that you are doing a 'permitted' job.

If everything is good then sit down with your contractor and get everything down in writing. When you do this, remember that he is the 'expert' but you are 'paying him' to do your work. Insist on seeing 'AN APPROVED SET OF PLANS FROM THE BUILDING DEPARTMENT'. Have the contractor make a copy for your records. This may come in very usefully in the future. If I wanted to buy your hanger, I would insist on seeing an approved (approval stamped on the plans) set of plans before we sit down and talk $$$$$.

Assume nothing!!! Get everything in writing. I always try to get a firm date of start and completion. Some contractors tend to take on too many jobs and work at a few of them at a time while essentially ignoring the rest for later. Make it clear that you want a 'permitted' job.

If you can't accept a NO from the various government entities, then good luck to you. A bootlegged heater may be cheaper but you may be sorry later. Remember, you are renting out your 'commercial' hanger. Your insurance person may want to see the permits!

Additional thought - since I live here in Taxyafornia, I know nothing about heating the hanger with hot water pipes concreted into the floor but I wonder if this is a valid solution to your dilemma? Could a contractor lay piping over your existing hanger floor and then concrete over the piping? My guess is that you would have to have an additional layer of concrete of at least 6-8" but I really don't like this solution because I don't know if would work well. How do you 'anchor' the second concrete floor to the first one?

Instead, you would likely have to tear up the existing floor in order to install this type of floor heating correctly. This solution would place the heating device outside of your hanger - but I am guessing that this alternative may be quite expensive as you already have a concrete hanger floor. Right?

As I said, all of the above is worth maybe at least 3 cents but considering what it cost you to read it, it's a bargain! As an aside, I am very interested to hear which solution you choose and how well you did. Best to you.

Wow, That was a great read!

As I just posted earlier, This is such a rural area, I know most all the contractors. The one who will do my installation just put in some heaters in the hangar next to me.

Absolutely this will be done by the book and my insurance company will be given a chance for input.

Being in a rural area makes it easy to interact with all the players and recognize the non performers.
 
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