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Outsourcing AKZO Priming?

Hi All,

I primed my first parts in my garage yesterday with AKZO 463 primer. The setup took forever (shooting in my garage in winter'ish Michigan weather). The clean up the remainder of forever. The garage still smells terrible 24 hours later. Overall, the experience was really negative. I don't mind doing the prep work including Pre-Kote, but dealing with AKZO in my garage is pretty horrible even with a good respirator. Has anyone asked local auto body shops if they would shoot AKZO 364 primer on their airplane parts? I'm going to call around to see if I can get any bites. If I had to pay someone $100 per batch of parts, that seems like a trade-off I would be willing to make--even if I had to do it ~20 times).
 
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Primer

Whoever does it, make sure they don't hose it on thick and add too much weight. Auto paint shops don't have to worry about W&B. Just a thought.
 
I fully ventilate my workshop after spraying by opening the garage door and making sure all the air circulates out. After that I will run the filter/boxfan in the windows for an hour as the epoxy cures. I can usually still smell it in the morning but it goes away by the end of the next day.

Make sure you don't have anything you care about in the garage when doing this. I have overspray behind things, in corners, spots I have no idea how they got there. Definitely don't have a car in the garage while spraying! :)
 
My suggestion:

Use rattle can zinc chromate on the faying surfaces of your project then come back later and shoot Akzo on the rest when you can do it outside in the spring.

If you're gonna close a structure before warmer weather returns, go ahead and shoot the zinc chromate on the interior of all of those skins. Zinc chromate will turn your 60 year unprimed airplane into a 100 year airplane. Akzo might give you a 125 year airplane.
 
I had all of my parts primed by outsource. But I also live in Boeing land so there are plenty of suppliers here for the aerospace industry. I specified the normal Boeing process; BMS-10-11 with the exception of only one coat of primer instead of two (to save weight like the poster before pointed out). The process includes etch, alodine, and prime. Minimum charge per batch is $300 and as an example the entire tail feathers fell under that charge.
 
Prep for Primer

If you were going to send your parts somewhere for priming, you'd want to have them do the etch prep too. The shelf life between prep and prime is hours before oxidization.
 
Larry,

Do you mind sharing some of the suppliers you used? The one in the area that I inquired with wanted over $1k to do alodine on the wing ribs and skins.

Thanks
 
Don't give up!

I just started my RV14 a month ago. After much consternation, because of the hassle, I decided to use AKZO anyway as its the best . Built a $100 10'long by 4' wide by 8' tall paint booth for $100 out of 1x4 and 6ml poly with a fan and duct leading out the garage main door that is cracked open 8". I bought an organic filter 3M mask and cover the filters with coffee filters to make them last longer. These get replaced every time. Use a harbor freight sprayer. Clean it by adding a little MEK to the paint holder and shoot it into a gallon jug. Simple and no fuss. Also use a full white body suit. Run the fan for a couple of hours after spraying then shut it down and close the garage. Usually by 24 hours later the primed parts have pretty much stopped off gassing. Did I mention I live in BC Canada and its freezing here now. Also take all the used rags/paper towels and stuff out to the garbage right away. 2 days later I can work in the garage with the door to the house open and my wife doesn't object - one wiff of a molecule of diesel will set her off or visiting harbor freight and what ever smell emanates off their stuff.
 
You get used to the AKZO after awhile :D I just wear gloves, respirator and a keep the shop door open with a fan infront. Also look into the 3M PPS system. It knocks clean up down to a 30 sec affair. Throw away the old liner and then run some MEK or Acetone through the gun. Done.

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/All-3M-Products/Automotive/Painting-Equipment-Supplies/Paint-Spray-Equipment/PPS-/?N=5002385+8709313+8711017+8711441+8719367+8743680+3294857497&rt=r3

My process is similar to this as well. I spray in the driveway, bring parts into the garage and all is good.
 
My Experience

When I get done priming, I make sure anything that is wet or has residual unncured primer is cleaned or out of the garage. This includes primer cans with drips of raw primer, paper towels, raw primer drips on garage floor, etc. I found that any spills I missed I could still smell after a few days. I think the colder it is, the longer the smell will last.

After spending three days priming the foward fuse, I think I am not going to prime my next plane. ( wife: next plane, what do you mean next plane? The garage is mine after this one!)
 
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You get used to the AKZO after awhile :D I just wear gloves, respirator and a keep the shop door open with a fan infront. Also look into the 3M PPS system. It knocks clean up down to a 30 sec affair. Throw away the old liner and then run some MEK or Acetone through the gun. Done.

https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/company-us/all-3m-products/~/All-3M-Products/Automotive/Painting-Equipment-Supplies/Paint-Spray-Equipment/PPS-/?N=5002385+8709313+8711017+8711441+8719367+8743680+3294857497&rt=r3

+1 ..........
 
I'll be a broken record as well...... Time to prime does suck, but I hope to fly to coastal areas/Caribbean someday and I'll be happy I took the time with AKZO. I have an old furnace fan I added a standard 110v plug to, and a duct that takes the fog outside and it does that job fairly well. My 'paint booth' is just tarps around and over my garage door supports. I sprayed parts last Friday evening, and its just now starting to smell normal in the garage, even with opening the doors for a while each day to purge the air. I don't get any smell through my (full face) respirator while spraying, and wear a full tyvek suit w/hood and gloves during the process. My Harbor Freight gun cleans up easily with acetone. My neighbors have no clue whats happening at my place.

What I would really like to have is somebody at an auto body shop that would be willing to rent me a spray booth for a weekend, for the space and a well controlled environment. Might be worth the $100.
 
What I would really like to have is somebody at an auto body shop that would be willing to rent me a spray booth for a weekend, for the space and a well controlled environment. Might be worth the $100.
I've rented a booth to paint a car and that's exactly what I paid; although that was 10 years ago.
 
I just started my RV14 a month ago. After much consternation, because of the hassle, I decided to use AKZO anyway as its the best . Built a $100 10'long by 4' wide by 8' tall paint booth for $100 out of 1x4 and 6ml poly with a fan and duct leading out the garage main door that is cracked open 8". I bought an organic filter 3M mask and cover the filters with coffee filters to make them last longer. These get replaced every time. Use a harbor freight sprayer. Clean it by adding a little MEK to the paint holder and shoot it into a gallon jug. Simple and no fuss. Also use a full white body suit. Run the fan for a couple of hours after spraying then shut it down and close the garage. Usually by 24 hours later the primed parts have pretty much stopped off gassing. Did I mention I live in BC Canada and its freezing here now. Also take all the used rags/paper towels and stuff out to the garbage right away. 2 days later I can work in the garage with the door to the house open and my wife doesn't object - one wiff of a molecule of diesel will set her off or visiting harbor freight and what ever smell emanates off their stuff.

So I'm not the only one. Interesting, my wife swears she doesn't have a sister:D
 
Outsource priming? What a hassle. I read through all posts and don't see mention of the technique I use that makes fumes, overspray, etc a non-issue. Build a downdraft table. I spray all winter in Minnesota without issue. I just vent the table through a window to the outside.
 
Hi All,

I primed my first parts in my garage yesterday with AKZO 364 primer. The setup took forever (shooting in my garage in winter'ish Michigan weather). The clean up the remainder of forever. The garage still smells terrible 24 hours later. Overall, the experience was really negative. I don't mind doing the prep work including Pre-Kote, but dealing with AKZO in my garage is pretty horrible even with a good respirator. Has anyone asked local auto body shops if they would shoot AKZO 364 primer on their airplane parts? I'm going to call around to see if I can get any bites. If I had to pay someone $100 per batch of parts, that seems like a trade-off I would be willing to make--event if I had to do it ~20 times).

Ive not heard of 364. I shot all my plane (and still have parts to do) with 463-12-8. Works down to about 45degrees. Clean up is cake with acetone; shooting is cake with a primer pistol; scuff and wash the AL with dish soap if I'm lazy; dry scrub and acetone wipe if I'm really lazy and its a small part. Sounds to me like youre doing way more work than is required to get a good job with Akzo.....rattle can is more work than Akzo....
 
Thanks everyone for the fast replies! 17 responses in 24 hours is pretty cool. It sounds like my experience isn't atypical. For what it's worth, it's good to hear that I'm not the only one suffering. After about 48 hours, the smell is almost totally gone.

Follow up question: what does everyone do to keep the tip of their gun clear while the first side if primer is drying? I shot one side and had to wait 1 - 2 hours for it to dry enough that I was comforatble flipping the parts without marking the finish. By that point the AKZO has made a mess of the little holes in my HVLP gun. I can't believe people clean their gun between shooting each side of their parts. What's the secret?

The downdraft table is intriguing especially if you pulled it through furnace filters taped to box fans.

Correction: I am using the 463-12-8. I'll blame my mistake on a combination of frustration and occasional dyslexia.
 
If there is more than about 15 minutes between spray sessions, I pour the material back into a mix cup and shoot a couple of ounces of thinner or reducer through the gun.

It is a cost of doing business.
 
I flip my parts to other side after 10 minutes. I?m guessing the air movement from the downdraft table aids in quicker drying. I may do a quick spray into the downdraft every few minutes to keep the tip clear. I used a squirrel cage blower from a furnace to move air in my table, with furnace filters to keep the paint out.
 
My stuff days in 10 minutes to handle or flip. Do you let the mixture cook for 30 minutes before spraying?
 
I also flip after a few minutes. I have also found that leaving the good stuff in the gun for upwards of 30 min to 1 hour is no problem, just give it a mix before spraying again.
 
Above 70F, yeah 10 mins tops. Below that, I'll either wait a bit longer or hit it with a heat gun or torpedo heater. Spraying on warmed parts (not hot) also works good. Never had parts that needed more than 20mins to dry for flipping no matter what the temp. If its more than 15mins between shoots, yeah I'll pour the residual back into the mixing pot and run some acetone thru the primer pistol...its drying in your gun at the same rate as on your parts, which is to say fast....
 
couple more things..

I work in Heavy aircraft overhaul, and have used these products for years..you learn some simple things I used doing my -4 (100% AXZO primed inside and out). First off, spray gun isn't always the best method ! I use the little foam rollers and thin the primer with MEK for internal side skin priming and when you get good at it, even ribs and such can be done with the roller and soft brushes, without looking any different than sprayed. A very thin coat is all that's needed anyway, and there is no overspray or messy clean-up. Also, If your going to prime over a couple day period, mix up your primer in a mason jar or preferred container with a lid, and put it in the freezer. When ready to use next day, let it warm to room temp,stir and paint. No need to waste $$ primer.
 
I work in Heavy aircraft overhaul, and have used these products for years..you learn some simple things I used doing my -4 (100% AXZO primed inside and out).

Ah ha! So there is someone on here whos done Akzo on the outside! I've asked this before but got nothing but crickets about Akzo on the outside.

Fixnflyguy, what do you use as a top coat paint with Akzo? Will good ol' PPG epoxy topcoat based products work good (ie Akzo in place of a PPG DP series primer) or do you have a special paint etc?
 
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This doesn't address having your priming outsourced but if you want to control fumes this works well.

Video of my DIY downdraft paint booth.

Paint booth in service.

booth1.jpg


booth2.jpg
 
Hi SRT,
Sorry for the delay; I don't often peruse through VAF.

I am currently using Asko; located in the Fremont district in Seattle. They offer everything I need; prime to BMS-10-11; gold anodize; and electroless nickel. Currently their minimum lot charge is $300.

I used to use Hitek in Kent; but they were purchased by ?I forgot? and now are a captive shop.

Stay away from Production Plating in Everett / Mukilteo.
 
Thanks for getting back to me, Larry. Asko in Fremont is the place I inquired with. Maybe I should give them another call.

-scott
 
I tried asking Vans if it was an option to have a Quick build "lite" kit.

Have the same shop that does the quick build kits do the metal prep and clear alodine that they already do just not the assembly. They already have the shipping and processes set up. should be a no brainer. I did not get any traction, but maybe if enough people ask it could be a future option.
 
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