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Adding IFR to 10 yo RV-7A

mattwood

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Just passed my checkride Tuesday. Now I want to continue to IFR training. A friend has a RV-7A that he'll let me borrow and/or buy into, but it's VFR only now (it's been flying about 10 years). What would you recommend for instrumentation to bring the plane up to IFR capable? My CFI is a Vans guy and happy to do the IFR training in the 7. Seems like this is a better deal for me than buying a 40 yo 172!

Thoughts? I'm hoping I can get this done for under $15k.

Matt Wood
Commerce, TX
 
What is the current equipment setup? What?s your budget?

A friendly CFI suggestion: highly recommended to learn on steam, then later transition to glass. That?s generally a smoother process than vice versa.

Congrats on the checkride!
 
What‘s he got in the panel already and where is the plane based? The types of locally available approaches and the current panel will drive what, If anything, needs to be added to the plane beyond 91.205 equipment requirements and current 91.411/413 inspections. Oh and be sure the OPLIMs for that particular RV authorizes IFR flight.
 
And, is this for training under the hood in VMC, or actual IMC? While the FARs and OpLimits specify a minimum of equipment, most ifr pilots will want some redundancy and back ups. Finally, the big dollar question. Do you want a GPS that is TSO?d for ifr use?
 
The current equipment is a Dynon 100 EFIS, Garmin 496 gps, and a Garmin transponder (he doesn't remember the number). Thanks for the replies so far. Mostly I'm wanting to get the IFR rating for my own growth - I don't anticipate flying IFR very often if ever, but it would be nice to have the ability if really needed. I know a 172 would be an easier platform to learn on, but buying the IFR equipment is a lot cheaper than buying an entire plane that I'd turn around and sell again in a couple years. But again, I appreciate all comments as I have a lot to learn.
 
SL30

If you're willing to go the VOR/ILS route rather than the IFR GPS route, all you need is an SL30 nav/comm and nav antenna. The D100 has CDI/Glideslope indicators on the main EFIS display.

The SL30 will feed the EFIS display. This from https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/6432: SL30 is the only panel-mount nav/comm with a standby frequency monitoring feature providing the capability of two nav/comms in one. With the primary VOR/LOC frequency providing guidance to your HSI or CDI, the standby frequency can be tuned to a second VOR to display the current radial on which your aircraft is flying. This allows you to cross check position fixes with just one receiver.

Cheers, David
KBTF RV-6A (IFR legal with Dynon D10A and SL30)
 
A gentle reminder ... be sure to check the Operational Limitations of the RV-7A that you?re thinking of modifying to be sure that if properly equipped, it?s approved for IFR. I expect that it will be, but it would be wise to confirm.
 
A gentle reminder ... be sure to check the Operational Limitations of the RV-7A that you?re thinking of modifying to be sure that if properly equipped, it?s approved for IFR. I expect that it will be, but it would be wise to confirm.

Good point. My ops limits from 92 didn't have that verbiage so I sent mine into the FSDO and had new ops limits 2 weeks later.
 
There's a lot of answer to that question...

By way of background, I learned on steam gauges, before the era of flip-flop radios and headsets. The avionics was simple to learn and operate, not much to it, but you spent your energies maintaining situational awareness. These days, the opposite.

One big area to consider is what techniques do you / can you / have you used on each individual instrument. I've seen the following in various glass cockpit offerings that indicated that the vendor had no clue on how pilots would use their instruments:
* Roll pointer on the attitude indicator disappeared for small bank angles. This made it harder to fly level, and hard to make corrections with 1° or 2° of bank angle;
* Lubber line on the HSI not on the top layer, so you couldn't use it, and very hard to see because it was skinny and dotted. They still haven't fixed it;
* Vertical speed indicators with only 100 ft/min resolution. Sometimes for small altitude correction, you want to climb or descent at half that or, if you're good, at 1/4 that rate. One vendor had the vertical speed disappear completely if it was less than 100 ft/min;
* Heading indicators as a linear strip across the top. That means that you get to do a whole lot of math to figure out turns;
* VOR indicators without compass roses around them. Those are mercifully rare these days as they made VOR navigation much easier;
* Lots of vendors have single cue flight directors (V bars). Those work great when you have guidance in two axes, but with single axis guidance, you get misleading pitch cues. And when you are flying attitude with no guidance, V bars are much harder to fly precisely than more explicit reference marks.

And when it comes to human factors... if you've had any formal human factors (HF) training, you can go into just about any cockpit out there and find HF errors in just about any avionics suite. Misuse of color is one of the worst offenders....

Then there's the avionics Tower of Babel. In the old days, checking out on the avionics was maybe two minutes, and a checkout in a plane focused on the airplane. These days, it's all about the cockpit light show. The two bad aspects of this are that once you learn one vendor's incantations, and that can be quite a challenge, it can be another challenge to learn another vendor's incantations. I haven't actually done that myself, but even going from what I've got to the certified equivalent when I've ridden along (with no avionics training) was daunting.

It's also been my feeling that the techniques of flying steam gauges (simple systems, pilot maintains the SA, partial panel with no attitude indicator) vs the techniques of flying glass (very complex systems, high peak workloads, lots of distractions) are so different as to justify different IFR ratings, although nobody talks about that.

Be real careful about only flying "light IFR." If you're flying from home base, you might be able to get away with that philosophy a lot of the time, but "getting away with it" doesn't qualify as good risk management.

$o there'$ really only one good $olution to your problem. $pend the time and the money to get really good at whatever it i$ you fly $o that you don't end up embara$$ing your$elf -- or wor$e.
 
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The SL30 will feed the EFIS display. This from https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/6432: SL30 is the only panel-mount nav/comm with a standby frequency monitoring feature providing the capability of two nav/comms in one. With the primary VOR/LOC frequency providing guidance to your HSI or CDI, the standby frequency can be tuned to a second VOR to display the current radial on which your aircraft is flying. This allows you to cross check position fixes with just one receiver.

Cheers, David
KBTF RV-6A (IFR legal with Dynon D10A and SL30)

Ummm don't believe everything Big G says. Check out Trig's new radios which do the same thing, in the same panel space.

If I were in this position I would likely negotiate an ownership stake in the aircraft that was paid for in avionics. The D100 is a good box but gives no redundancy of indications. Think of installing a second display like a D10A. I would also bite the bullet and install an Avidyne IFD440 GPS/Nav/Com right out of the gate. Yes, it's big money. I would also look around for a used PS Engineering PMA8000B or similar audio panel. Audio is what we humans use as our primary interface to the radios so the audio panel is the most basic building block of a good panel.

The other thing it seems you're going to need is ADSB-Out. Lots of solutions available, however for maximum flexibility I would recommend looking at a 1090ES solution rather than UAT, simply because UAT only works in the USA. Take a look at uAvionix - they are coming out with an all-in-one IN and OUT solution that's tiny. Their OUT and IN solutions are already available, are small and well integrated.
 
Further comments on good advice

If I were in this position I would likely negotiate an ownership stake in the aircraft that was paid for in avionics.
Agreed, for this kind of investment it would make sense for you to get a share of the plane. I think the overall plan is a good one; even though a 7A might not be the perfect basic IFR trainer I think it is entirely doable.

The D100 is a good box but gives no redundancy of indications. Think of installing a second display like a D10A.
Agree STRONGLY. And be sure to spring for the backup battery. A backup battery powered mini-EFIS provides a huge, huge, amount of real-world IFR redundancy, and in the experimental world it is absolutely off the charts in terms of cost-effectiveness. I once used one (a G5 in my case) to turn a PVSPCBMOI (Potentially Very Serious Problem Caused By My Own Ignorance) into a not-very-serious problem.

Did I mention that you should be sure to get the backup battery? :)

I would also bite the bullet and install an Avidyne IFD440 GPS/Nav/Com right out of the gate. Yes, it's big money.
As a practical matter, I think a certified GPS IFR navigator is the bare minimum for a usable IFR training and traveling platform. With that said, you could install something like an 89B, and that would get the job done. On the other hand, the older certified navigators are getting OLD, and LPV approaches are nice. I know nothing about the Avidyne, but can add that a used 430W could also make sense here, budget permitting.
 
VOR/ILS and some redundancy

Check out the VAL INS 429 - you get some redundancy as it has built in display - the D100 can die and you still have an indicator.

If you can fit the panel space a Garmin 400W is a GPS only box, much cheaper than the more common 430W - and this can drive the D100. Note however that without the Dynon hs34 the GPS to dynon interface is limited. It won't turn anticipate (ok, nice but not a big deal), and, most important the CDI sensitivity on the Dynon won't change as you go from enroute to approach. Which is a deal breaker. I've got the 400W and a D10A and have personal experience on that problem.

But --- assuming you could fit it all, a 400W, INS429, and HS34 will make a nice suite with redundancy and capable of flying VOR, ILS, and GPS approaches.

Bryan
 
- I don't anticipate flying IFR very often if ever, but it would be nice to have the ability if really needed. .

IF you don't fly IFR very often (or equivalent hood practice) then you will not have the ability if really needed. Instrument skills are very perishable.

PS for Ed: +1. But you left out NDB approaches - the true test of internal position awareness!
 
A

As a practical matter, I think a certified GPS IFR navigator is the bare minimum for a usable IFR training and traveling platform. With that said, you could install something like an 89B, and that would get the job done. On the other hand, the older certified navigators are getting OLD, and LPV approaches are nice. I know nothing about the Avidyne, but can add that a used 430W could also make sense here, budget permitting.

Disagree strongly. No GPS is needed to get the rating. Only VOR and ILS.
Equipping to actually fly IFR is very different from having equipment required to get the rating. Not having an approach certified GPS narrows the types of approaches you have to demonstrate on the checkride. Learning an IFR GPS is incrementally more difficult than learning VOR and ILS.
The learning of precision attitude flying is very valuable and is not that perishable.
Retaining specifics of flying approaches is much more perishable.
All of the first generation IFR GPSs are functionally obsolete. A few may have nav data updates still available and may still work, but are not repairable and have no factory support. That includes the first generation 430s.
Purchasing any of those units is a total waste of money.
 
We don?t actually disagree of course....

?As a practical matter, I think a certified GPS IFR navigator is the bare minimum for a usable IFR training and traveling platform.?

Disagree strongly. No GPS is needed to get the rating. Only VOR and ILS.
Equipping to actually fly IFR is very different from having equipment required to get the rating. Not having an approach certified GPS narrows the types of approaches you have to demonstrate on the checkride. Learning an IFR GPS is incrementally more difficult than learning VOR and ILS.
The learning of precision attitude flying is very valuable and is not that perishable.
Retaining specifics of flying approaches is much more perishable.
All of the first generation IFR GPSs are functionally obsolete. A few may have nav data updates still available and may still work, but are not repairable and have no factory support. That includes the first generation 430s.
Purchasing any of those units is a total waste of money.
 
What Kelly said about required nav equipment is correct, however a gps with moving map makes all approaches much easier.
 
I have a Dynon Touch and at the press of a couple keys I can switch between traditional six pack or modern glass display. Adaption to modern glass after many years of ?steam gauges? was not intuitive but in the end a positive move. As a bonus I have an hour of battery backup with the Dynon in case the alternators fails. As a further bonus I got rid of that failure prone vacuum system. I?ve had two vac failures in the past and the one I had in IMC was not fun.

ILS? My certified navigator is a Garmin GTN 625. It flies RNAV approaches only. I figure I?ll never have a need to fly an ILS again. In the Northeast at least, every airport with an ILS also has an RNAV approach. On the other hand, I?m aware of MANY airports, some that never had an instrument approach before, that now have RNAV approaches. Somebody going to say an ILS will have lower minimums. That?s actually changing. At my nearby Class C airport (KBUF), RNAVs on runways 5, 23, 32 all have 200? DH?s. My modest 3200? home drome is soon to get an RNAV approach with a 300? DH!

I did kinda enjoy NDB approaches though.

Carl
 
ILS? My certified navigator is a Garmin GTN 625. It flies RNAV approaches only. I figure I?ll never have a need to fly an ILS again.

I did kinda enjoy NDB approaches though.

Carl

Unfortunately the OP asked about training. The current test standards require more than just GPS approaches. Now, he could add an NDB...
 
NDB?

Bob, I thought NDB/ADF stuff was no longer in the testing standards. I was under the impression NDB?s had gone the way of PAR?s (another really cool approach).
 
Just passed my checkride Tuesday. Now I want to continue to IFR training. A friend has a RV-7A that he'll let me borrow and/or buy into, but it's VFR only now (it's been flying about 10 years). What would you recommend for instrumentation to bring the plane up to IFR capable? My CFI is a Vans guy and happy to do the IFR training in the 7. Seems like this is a better deal for me than buying a 40 yo 172!

Thoughts? I'm hoping I can get this done for under $15k.

Matt Wood
Commerce, TX
If you buy into the RV7A and your partner will pop for the half the upgrade than great. Not sure what the panel is like now. I assume basic and not glass. To make the panel IFR plan on $20K (just a guess). It will add value to the plane. What to put in? Up to you, do your research. Of course the way to go is glass today: Garmin, Dynon, GRT or other. Redundancy? You don't want to be IMC and lose all attitude instruments. So back up electrical and AI.

When I was in your shoes, I had a partnership in a Tomahawk with "six pack" and one VOR/LOC/GS/MB. I flew the snot out of VOR, LOC/GS approaches. This was before GPS approaches. I did a lot of hood work with safety pilot in the Tomahawk. I still had to rent the Archer or C172 to get dual (15 hours needed), practice NDB's and take check ride. That may be the way to go.

Best tip: Simulator time is golden in practicing IAP without burning expensive 100LL. Go find a school that has one and get dual in it. You can have a lot of intense training and repetition in a Sim. You can just reset to outside IAF and change the winds, fail instruments... etc. Chances are these Sims will have steam gauges... It does not matter. If you develop your instrument skills. Scan, Cross Check, Interpreted, Control, it does not matter. It is a habit. The old HUB AND SPOKE approach on Steam gauges ("six pak") is a little dated with Glass, which has all the information right there in your field of vision 100% of the time. Also the glass has TREND bars and NAV all superimposed on display. The NAV display (MAP) is right there, so no need to look away at charts...great stuff. Learning steam if you ever rent a plane you will have that skill.


If you have basic "six pack" in the RV-7A already you can practice your attitude instrument flying. Resist making up approaches with a VFR GPS. It is not cool with FAA to fly IAP, even in VFR conditions, making up your own procedures to practice (so I recall).

To take a check ride in your RV you will need to fly some combination of VOR/LOC/ILS and GPS approaches. I have not read the Test Standard in some time, so research that. An IFR GPS is not cheap and need data base subscription update.

For me the capability to do pop-up en-route letdown to VFR is nice. Also there is a layer of fog and the airport will not open for another hour before it burns off, but an IFR departure to cancel and go VFR is handy. To do that you may only need terrestrial "old school" NAVAIDS, VOR/LOC/MB. No subscription needed, just current charts. You need only the airborne NAV equipment required for the flight, no more. Of course again do you want to launch without having a full panel? May be not. It is only money.

My RV-4 was full traditional IFR. I did not use it enough to justify it. I also did not have autopilot. I would highly recommend at least a wing leveler in your IFR RV if you really are going to do single pilot IFR. Just my opinion.
 
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