VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Model Specific > RV-8/8A
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 03-21-2018, 08:25 AM
Mark Dickens's Avatar
Mark Dickens Mark Dickens is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Collierville, TN (KFYE)
Posts: 919
Default

I did transition training with Bruce Bohannon and he discouraged wheel landings, so we practiced 3 pointers 95% of the time. Every once in a while I'd nail one, but this was in a RV-8 with a heavy metal Hartzell CS prop and Bruce in the back. I didn't realize at the time how his weight affected things until I recently took a friend up with me. I had been nailing wheel landings by myself, but as someone else pointed out, put some weight (~167 lbs in this case) in the back and it's a different plane. I bounced all 4 landings with him in the back because I wasn't used to the tail coming down as quickly as it did. I don't know anything about the Champ, but I'd guess that they discourage wheel landings because you can get into trouble with x-winds. This was Bruce's explanation as well. It's easy to get complacent with wheel landings and then when you really need to get that tail wheel on the runway quickly, you might find yourself in some trouble.
__________________
RV-8 #81077 Super Slow Build
Titan IOX-370, Dual P-Mags, AFP FM200A FI, Sensenich GA Prop
First Flight November 20, 2016 - Phase One Complete June 1, 2017
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-21-2018, 08:31 AM
mike newall's Avatar
mike newall mike newall is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Yorkshire, England
Posts: 1,602
Default

Haha,

Not sure who taught you that technique in a Champ, but all it will do is extend the take off roll I have had two Champs and two Citabrias btw.

This raising the tail is really an old wives tale shrouded in the mists of time.

If you have no view over the front, if it is a whopping big transport airplane, if it is a long nosed fighter with loads of torque, then sure - there will be a sound reason for raising the tail.
However, on any of the tailwheel types (lots) I have operated, the smoothest and neatest takeoffs have been with a correctly set elevator or stab trim and a light touch on the stick, feel the airplane - let the tail raise by itself - you get the best of both worlds, directional control from the tailwheel and then as the surfaces come alive, you naturally transfer to the rudder.

Simples
__________________
"I add a little excitement, a little spice to your lives, and all you do is complain!" - Q

Donated twice in 2017
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-21-2018, 08:41 AM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,673
Default

Bruce - I have no RV8 TW time and only one flight in an RV8A. Of course I have time in other RV's as well as "legacy" airplanes, including my own 85HP homebuilt. I've recently transitioned into our new airplane, a Glasair Sportsman. While the Sportsman is much more of a "truck" than the RV's, it's still a big step up, performance-wise, from anything I had flown recently.

Without a doubt, get the transition training. Comparing the Champ to the RV8 isn't even a comparison that should be made. You've mentioned counting "bananas". Even with my limited experience (and perhaps because it's limited the RV8A flight sticks out in my mind as an exception), I would suggest that in the RV you won't have time to say "bana..". The transition training will really help you understand this order of magnitude difference in performance, and, importantly, the very large difference that will be required of you in terms of your need to prepare for/anticipate what's coming and to react very quickly to small deviations from nominal before those deviations become much larger.

Having blasted around in my hangar-mate's 8A, I can give you one assurance - you're going to love the performance of the 8.

Last edited by Canadian_JOY : 03-21-2018 at 08:43 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-21-2018, 09:31 AM
luddite42 luddite42 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 387
Default

Hope nobody here is making you think the RV-8 is a beast to handle. It's a pussy cat just like the Champ. It's a basic and straightforward tailwheel airplane, and all the tailwheel skills you learned in the Champ are perfectly transferable. You will require all of one take off to adjust to the difference in acceleration compared to the Champ. Sounds like you're a newbie tailwheel pilot, so you'll definitely want a little transition training aside from insurance issues. If you're good in the Champ, the RV transition will be a quick and easy breeze.

And there is generally no need to be in a hurry to jack the tail up early on take off in any light tailwheel airplane. I don't really understand those who think it's required for anything other than funnin' around. Neither the RV or Champ require any special techniques. Don't understand why any Champ operator would discourage wheel landings. It's a basic tailwheel skill. I've got a fair amount of Champ time and they wheel or 3-point just fine in x-winds. Good rudder authority. The reason you actually see more tailwheel pilots do wheel landings than 3-points in various types is because they are easier. Less likelihood of those embarrassing dribbles down the runway in front of the peanut gallery.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-21-2018, 09:35 AM
mike newall's Avatar
mike newall mike newall is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Yorkshire, England
Posts: 1,602
Default

Agree Luddite - the Champ does the most sublime lazy wheel landings with the oleo undercarriage. Never tried a later/new one with the solid gear.
__________________
"I add a little excitement, a little spice to your lives, and all you do is complain!" - Q

Donated twice in 2017
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-21-2018, 09:44 AM
mciaglia mciaglia is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 112
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rallylancer122 View Post
Like others said, takeoff happens fast. It's kind of hard to screw up, just watch the torque. Although I guess anything is possible, I can't imagine departure stalling one of these.

Landing happens fast too. Your pattern speeds will be higher than Champ cruise speeds. You'll need to plan ahead to slow down and fly a larger pattern. Ours has a constant speed and on landing it can develop a pretty high sink rate so plan on carrying some power. With the Hershey bar wing it does not float. I chop the power, flare, and am on the ground about that fast.

Ours 3 points nice onto grass with a little weight on the back. Without weight it will not 3 point. I've never tried a stall landing on pavement. It wheel lands nice on either surface. Make sure the brakes and tailwheel steering are up to snuff because once the tail comes down the rudder is pretty ineffective. (I learned this hard way.)

Solo with 20-30 lbs in the back ours is a pooch to fly. With a full size adult back there it's a whole other animal. Not harder, just different.

Definitely get some dual.

DEM

I never understood larger patterns and carrying power especially with high sink rates. I fly a Christen Eagle that is a short coupled biplane that glides like a manhole cover. Tight patterns with good airspeed control and knowing how to slip is crucial for effective tailwheel landings IMHO. Three point & Wheel landings are akin to primer wars
__________________
Dr. Mark Ciaglia
Houston, TX
Donating Monthly since 10/17
N189PT- Christen Eagle II
N627DG (reserved)- RV10 in the making
www.marksfamilyrv10.wordpress.com
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-21-2018, 09:52 AM
luddite42 luddite42 is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 387
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mciaglia View Post
I never understood larger patterns and carrying power especially with high sink rates. I fly a Christen Eagle that is a short coupled biplane that glides like a manhole cover. Tight patterns with good airspeed control and knowing how to slip is crucial for effective tailwheel landings IMHO. Three point & Wheel landings are akin to primer wars
Exactly - same as a Pitts with a CS prop and those guys who drop them in from a steep slip at idle power. If a Pitts can do it, the RV sure as heck can too. This is all individual preference and comfort/skill level. Some pilots are even uncomfortable with the power off "descent rate" of a 172 and prefer to carry power on approach. Of course, modern flight training teaches this.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-21-2018, 06:49 PM
Rallylancer122 Rallylancer122 is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Oconto, WI
Posts: 81
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtZim View Post
Thanks for all your comments! Thanks Mark for the link! How did I miss that page!?

One of the strange things to me about the Champ takeoff (grass) was holding the stick full forward for several seconds until the tail came up - mentally a challenge / counterintuitive to try forcing the nose down during takeoff From that, I was imagining starting takeoff with stick full aft in the 8 for a couple of "bananas" for directional control until the rudder works, then lifting the tail. Sounds like the bananas slip by pretty fast.

Landings were almost all full stall in the Champ, wheel landings were tricky and discouraged by the management and instructors.

Really looking forward to some training in the 8 and flying!
No need to force the tail up. After 1 or 2 takeoffs you'll feel about the right stick position to hold to let the tail fly itself off. The airplane will fly itself off shortly after. Forcing the tail up will just hold the plane on the ground. With as much power and acceleration as RV's have, this is probably not desirable. (I haven't tried it but I imagine it would get really squirrely.) The only plane I force the tail up on is my Dad's old Meyers biplane. With zero forward viz, no tailwheel steering, and sketchy model A ford brakes (seriously, Meyers raided the parts bin) getting the tail up right away makes life much easier.

If your instructor doesn't want to teach wheel landings find a new instructor. While wheel/3 point opinions are often as closely held as Democrat/Republican, you should know both. (Same could probably be said for the politics....)

As for the comments regarding larger patterns, I agree. I suggested a larger pattern for a pilot getting used to the speed as it will give him/her more time to catch up to the plane. As they get comfortable they can bring that pattern in as desired. (I prefer a tight pattern.)

I've found our RV-8 to be on the easy end of taildraggers I've flown. Just have to respect the power and speed.

DEM
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-21-2018, 08:47 PM
jliltd jliltd is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Rancho San Lorenzo
Posts: 361
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Dickens View Post
I did transition training with Bruce Bohannon and he discouraged wheel landings, so we practiced 3 pointers 95% of the time. Every once in a while I'd nail one, but this was in a RV-8 with a heavy metal Hartzell CS prop and Bruce in the back. I didn't realize at the time how his weight affected things until I recently took a friend up with me. I had been nailing wheel landings by myself, but as someone else pointed out, put some weight (~167 lbs in this case) in the back and it's a different plane. I bounced all 4 landings with him in the back because I wasn't used to the tail coming down as quickly as it did. I don't know anything about the Champ, but I'd guess that they discourage wheel landings because you can get into trouble with x-winds. This was Bruce's explanation as well. It's easy to get complacent with wheel landings and then when you really need to get that tail wheel on the runway quickly, you might find yourself in some trouble.
LOL. Yeah right. No question Bruce is a 3-point proponent. But I can almost guarantee his explanation of why nobody should do wheel landings was much more colorful than what you alluded to here. I can appreciate your keeping it family friendly. Bruce has one of the best equipped rear seat control systems I have seen in an RV. And is a great instructor.

The RV-8 is without question an extremely docile and easy taildragger to land. If. IF, you have taildragger time. A Cherokee or 172 only guy might almost get one in the air. But all bets are off on landing. A Citabria or Cub guy will be on their toes. And a Luscombe or Pitts pilot can text their girlfriend on roll-out.

Jim
__________________
RV-8
RV-3B
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-22-2018, 04:24 AM
Capt Capt is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 196
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SgtZim View Post
Thanks for all your comments! Thanks Mark for the link! How did I miss that page!?

One of the strange things to me about the Champ takeoff (grass) was holding the stick full forward for several seconds until the tail came up - mentally a challenge / counterintuitive to try forcing the nose down during takeoff From that, I was imagining starting takeoff with stick full aft in the 8 for a couple of "bananas" for directional control until the rudder works, then lifting the tail. Sounds like the bananas slip by pretty fast.

Landings were almost all full stall in the Champ, wheel landings were tricky and discouraged by the management and instructors.

Really looking forward to some training in the 8 and flying!
There's plenty of ways to skin the same cat, you'll develope yr own technique as you gain experience. Every single one of us had zero time on conventional u/c once upon a time, we all got shown by someone at first then went from there to develope our own wives tales. I wheel off and wheel on every time. Why? Cause I like to -
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:18 PM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.