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Engine choices

Brantel

Well Known Member
Yes it is way too early for me to be worried about engine options.

But I am working on my long term financial plan for attempting to build this 10.

That being said the engine is a major portion of cost associated with this whole thing.

I just got a quote from a well known engine builder and almost fainted.

Tried getting a quote from another very well known engine builder and so far I have received no response. (Waiting 2 weeks)


The way I see it I have a few options:

* New Lycoming from Vans
* New Lycoming or Titan from an engine builder
* Luck up and find a runable mid time engine
* Take a gamble and find and overhaul a first run engine
* other???

Seems Vans new price along with the $1000 off prop combo deal is hard to beat?

What did everyone else do?

These things get more expensive every year so waiting forever may not be a good idea....
 
I lucked out and found a late model VERY low time IO-540 that had a mild prop strike from Wentworth. They had it advertised in trade a plane as an ?RV-10 Special? with free shipping. I had $13K invested by the time I as done having all the components checked out and yellow tagged for an engine with only 291 hours TTSN. I ended up replacing the cylinder power assemblies with new ones after flying it for a little over 100 hours due to oil blow by but still had only $20K into it when I was done. A lot cheaper than buying new but at the time I did not have open checkbook to buy new. Obviously not for everyone but I lucked out with a good solid and dependable engine.
 
I share same sentiment. It's absolutely BS what the chinese are doing to the market, rather what the American companies are allowing them to do. Clearly the acquisitions that happened even a couple years ago has made the engine market worse with the pathetically ill parts supply chain. The heads at these companies should be fired for such pathetic and embarrassing supply chain failures. But thats how monopolies and corporate politics are. This was extremely frustrating. I reluctantly had to throw in the towel on this. Totally takes the fun away. I just downloaded the forms at Vans, filled them out, and succumbed to the tried and true. Hindsight it forced me to buy a conforming engine that likely will render better value in the plane, short term and long term. I guess
For my RV-8, I settled for the 180hp parallel valve Lycoming with standard Hartzell prop bundled package. I hope I am not regretting the lesser HP when I finally fly this thing.
There just is not any options right now. Maybe in 2 more years the manufacturing companies will get there act together and high performance will be available again.
If you need the engine now like I do, just go to Vans, and get it done, move on to getting the plane built.
 
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The cheapest option should be to but a runout and overhaul it with a pro looking over your shoulder....
 
The cheapest option should be to but a runout and overhaul it with a pro looking over your shoulder....

I looked at that really hard and couldn't make it work for me. First problem was finding a core without more hours on it than I was comfortable with. Second problem was that a -10 is an expensive airplane and carries 4 people. The fact that Barrett (and others) test runs the engine is worth a lot for me given the situation.

However, if I had the stones to build another engine (I did the -320 in my RV-6) and could get past the test run issue, I could have saved ~$20K versus the BPE price by buying a core and rebuilding it myself. That would have netted new cylinders, cam, followers, accessories, with remanufactured crank, case, rods, etc.

I ultimately went Barrett. The brand new from Van's engine/prop deal was very enticing too.
 
another thought...

I understand the want to save money, however...

The RV-10 IS NOT an inexpensive build. This should be very apparent BEFORE starting the build.

The LAST place that I would try and save money would be the engine.

Your three other passengers, which could very well be your family, would probably agree.

Just my opinion...it's kind of like buying a mattress.

You spend nearly 1/3 of your life on that mattress; Do you really want to buy a cheap one?

Barrett is certainly not the cheapest (or the most expensive) way to go, however, they have been doing it for a very long time. There is piece of mind there...
 
One consideration in selecting the engine that was passed on to me by a very experienced builder was the resale value. Anything other than a zero time engine in new airframe will reduce the resale value and reduce the number of buyers who will consider your aircraft. Even a 1000 hour airframe is less valuable if the engine has more than the 1000 hours on the airframe.

While I am not planning on selling my RV-10 anytime soon, the time will come some day. So with the combination of the safety considerations expressed above, plus resale value impacts, and the potential increased time/effort that would be required to install a different engine than the IO-540 that the RV-10 is designed around, I made the decision to order the engine & prop as a package from Van's.

One other suggestion. Don't purchase the engine until you are about ready to install it. The warranty clock starts when the engine ships to you, and while Lycoming did a great job of preserving my engine, I would like to have warranty still in effect when I do my first start. (Just realize that delivery is several months after you place the order, so take that into account when deciding when to place your order.)

Best of luck with your build.
 
I bought a mid time engine from LyCon in Visalia CA. They topped it, ported and 10:1 pistons. I?m happy after 200 hours and price less than half of new.
 
What's the chances that it would need a new crank or case or other high dollar component?

Most cores come with a guarantee that the crank and case will be rebuildable. In other words, you could send the crank off to Aircraft Specialty Services and get a yellow tag for it. Otherwise, the seller finds you a good crank or case to replace your "bad" one.

The issue is that rebuildable means theoretically you could get a crank that is like new and doesn't need any work other than wiping it off with a clean rag. Alternately, you could get one where you can turn the crank to a serviceable limit one more time before it is a $10k boat anchor. Either way, it is legitimately a rebuildable crank. Whether it is a like new crank or a last run crank will matter one day when you sell the airplane or need to rebuild the engine again.
 
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When I was at this stage, it came down to the new from Van’s or a rebuild from Barrett. I chose the latter and saved about 3k and got twice the warranty and other custom touches.
When I had my prop governor incident that required an engine tear down, I already had a personal relationship with the folks who built it for me to take care of the issue and get me first class service and a quick turnaround. That personalized service was priceless at the time and will always be appreciated. You get that from a shop not a factory.
In my opinion, a Barrett, Aerosport, or LyCon rebuild engine are not going to diminish any resell value from anyone that you’d actually want to sell your airplane to.

As a side note: New is great, but perusing Trade a plane for decades, it is interesting how many (relative) airplanes had a major engine overhaul or replacement very early in their lifetimes. I knew a guy who was a factory test pilot who had three successive failures on test flights in a row. A wise old wrench once told me that he feels much safer behind a crankshaft that has proven to be metallurgically sound than one that hasn’t.
 
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I recently bit the bullet and placed a deposit with Titan. I wanted electronic ignition fuel injection system. They would not build to that version but agreed to build the engine, run it for 3 hours with slave magnetos and injection system and then send me the engine. James Ball at Titan has been very responsive with answers and the pricing was very competitive and the engine will be built in Mobile Alabama (Roll Tide Roll!)

I tried to contact Barrett several times via their website and never got a response, that is a no-go for me.

I visited Aerosport in Kamloops, great shop, great team and I hear nothing but good reports. They are extremely knowledgeable & flexible but distance and pricing was too far away. If cost was not an issue, I would have gone with them.
 
I understand the want to save money, however...

The RV-10 IS NOT an inexpensive build. This should be very apparent BEFORE starting the build.

The LAST place that I would try and save money would be the engine.

Your three other passengers, which could very well be your family, would probably agree.

Just my opinion...it's kind of like buying a mattress.

You spend nearly 1/3 of your life on that mattress; Do you really want to buy a cheap one?

Barrett is certainly not the cheapest (or the most expensive) way to go, however, they have been doing it for a very long time. There is piece of mind there...

I agree....this is about determining the most cost effective option, not necessarily finding the cheapest option. I am not interested in a cobbled together engine, airboat parts or anything like that.

I don't have a problem with a professionally supervised self assembly or using a reputable builder using new or certified serviceable parts.
 
Mike Busch's latest book (Mike Busch on Engines) is a very useful starting point to get an expert perspective. Lots of counterintuitive information.
 
Barrett

?...
I tried to contact Barrett several times via their website and never got a response, that is a no-go for me...?

They recently suffered a family loss; that may be the contact issue.

I have never had any problem contacting them or having them respond to questions...
 
One other suggestion. Don't purchase the engine until you are about ready to install it. The warranty clock starts when the engine ships to you, and while Lycoming did a great job of preserving my engine, I would like to have warranty still in effect when I do my first start. (Just realize that delivery is several months after you place the order, so take that into account when deciding when to place your order.)

This time last year, the Lycoming warranty was....

The clock starts running when the engine
is placed in service or 24 months from
shipment by Lycoming, whichever
comes first. It means a builder typically
has as much as 23 months to ready the
airplane for first flight; there’s no need
to rush completion just to avoid losing
warranty. Once started, all non-certified
and Thunderbolt Signature models
are protected 24 months or 2000 hours,
whichever comes first. Do note that certain
high-performance options shorten
or eliminate warranty coverage, so ask
when you place your order.


Titan was .....

up to one year on the shelf,
followed by two years in service, with a
maximum of three years total.


I'm working on the 2019 Kitplanes Engine Buyers Guide right now, and will check warranty terms again when I talk to the factory guys.
 
One consideration in selecting the engine that was passed on to me by a very experienced builder was the resale value. Anything other than a zero time engine in new airframe will reduce the resale value and reduce the number of buyers who will consider your aircraft. Even a 1000 hour airframe is less valuable if the engine has more than the 1000 hours on the airframe.

While I am not planning on selling my RV-10 anytime soon, the time will come some day. So with the combination of the safety considerations expressed above, plus resale value impacts, and the potential increased time/effort that would be required to install a different engine than the IO-540 that the RV-10 is designed around, I made the decision to order the engine & prop as a package from Van's.

One other suggestion. Don't purchase the engine until you are about ready to install it. The warranty clock starts when the engine ships to you, and while Lycoming did a great job of preserving my engine, I would like to have warranty still in effect when I do my first start. (Just realize that delivery is several months after you place the order, so take that into account when deciding when to place your order.)

Best of luck with your build.

This was my thinking when I bought mine about eight years ago. That isn't my thinking today.

I went with the Van's deal. Lycoming just started shutting down the kit pipeline to builders. I was a couple months late. I didn't want an overhauled engine for all the reasons you mentioned.

I had a variety of issues, like the fuel pump quit of the first flight, and quite a few stupid questions since I never had to maintain an engine before. Van's doesn't deal with FWF issues. Lycoming was hit or miss depending on who you got on the phone.

I was fortunate to meet Rhonda and Allen from Barrett Precision Engines before I started my build. Both Rhonda and Allen have been supporters of the RV-10 community for years. Both have been helpful in my engine education and cordially answered my questions, even though I didn't buy my engine through them.

When I made my purchase, but a Thunderbolt through Van's wasn't an option, but it is now. That gives you a little flexibility in your configuration.

I don't trust Wentworth, although I know several people that have got great deals from them. You have to know exactly what you want and don't listen to their sales hype. They were pushing a 540 out of a helicopter that isn't anywhere near the same as a D4A5. Allen Barrett and a tech in the Lycoming booth at OSH educated me and prevented me from making that mistake.

If I was doing it all over again, I would purchase from Barrett. Rhonda and Allen are good people and take care of their customers. Sometimes they can get overwhelmed with new business, like right after OSH. That just means that it will take a bit longer, but they'll tell that up front. They are also great at letting people stop in and watch their build. Martin Filiatrault recently posted his experiences with Allen on his blog. I have another friend that is having some work done and I believe he is going to visit the shop next week.

I now firmly believe having Barrett find a case and overhauling yields a better solution that buying the Van's engine off the Lycoming factory line. I think it's easy to translate better, personal support as a better value proposition than a zero time engine.
 
Barrett Precision Engines

Hello,

I purchased 2 AEIO-540 D4A5 cores and was in contact with Rhonda the whole way. She contacted Lycoming and got the information on the engines and gave me the confidence to purchase both, one for them, one for me.

2 weeks ago I visited the shop and watched Allen tear down my core. I learned a lot about the engine. I am a mechanical engineer by education so I should know how these things work but seeing the disassembly in person and asking questions is by far a great education and I am glad I made the trip. The core turned out to be exactly what Rhonda thought it would be: excellent.

I have no other experience except for BPE. I trust them based on the posts here in VAF and now based on my personal interaction with them

I have found the best way to contact them is by calling.
 
Best Engine Option

That was the same question I asked myself when it came time to buy engine for my RV-7A. Smaller and slightly cheaper but same options. I ended up selecting Van's engine and discount for the following reasons:

1) New plane deserves New engine.
2) Van's price can't be beat including prop for NEW
3) Used engine is too risky and could be junker
4) Van's engine makes it more nominal configuration for next owner
5) Van's and Lycoming's support better on new engine
6) Van's engine is more known by other builders making community support better
7) Van's engine fits and comes with installation guide.
 
I knew that I wanted an electronic ignition with BPE cold air induction. Van?s Really doesn?t cater well to swapping options. Thunderbolt doesn?t really either. I talked with both BPE and Aerosport, both of which would build to specification and both of which were very knowledgeable and helpful. Ultimately, the Aerosport was slightly more for all brand new Lycoming parts and is the one I chose. As part of the build, they ported and polished the engine, added the BPE induction system and Ross? SDS system, and threw in build school which allowed me to build the engine side by side with a tech that knew every nut and bolt int that engine. Running up after the build was exciting and flawless. No dyno numbers but with 9:1 compression, electronic ignition, and CAI it won?t lack for ponies. I would go with them again in a heartbeat. That being said, I don?t think one could ever go wrong with having Barrett build either. The key for me was flexibility in building exactly to what I wanted.
 
>>New plane should have new engine<<

Originally I felt strongly the same way. Today I wouldn’t argue that such thoughts are wrong, just that they aren’t exclusively correct.

Buying a rebuilt from a premiere shop doesn’t feel like buying used and justifiably so. The (now proven) parts of the bottom end are restored to new specifications and sometimes improved. All of the bearings, gaskets, seals, etcetera are new sometimes using newer tech that the factory isn’t allowed to use. Everything on the top end, plus all the accessories are brand new and can be refined, especially in the area of balancing that the factory isn’t even allowed to do by limitations of their certificate which believe it or not is actually dumbed down by the tolerances necessary for mass production.
Monte Barrett invented a way to redo the valve seats that results in far fewer stuck valves than Lycoming and Lycoming isn’t allowed to copy that, although as I recall they have tried to buy the rights to the technology and shelve it.
A quality rebuild will be smoother running due to better balancing both by scales and by dyno adjustment.
Anything can go wrong with anything mechanical. I once flew a Boeing on its third day of line service and a routine check of one of its magnetic probes was covered in metal.
While I am sure there are horror stories on both sides, in my opinion, the quality shop rebuilds are every bit as durable if not more so than the factory units. Even if the costs were a wash, (they weren’t when I bought) it could be argued that the premiere rebuild is a better value than new.
 
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>
While I am sure there are horror stories on both sides, in my opinion, the quality shop rebuilds are every bit as durable if not more so than the factory units. Even if the costs were a wash, (they weren?t when I bought) it could be argued that the premiere rebuild is a better value than new.

About two months ago a good friend of mine had a major problem with an engine just purchased from one of the boutique shops mentioned in this thread. I was involved in troubleshooting and noticed a few other things with the engine that made me second guess their reputation. After having to jump thru some hoops to prove their engine was built incorrectly, they took it back, fixed the problem, then started finger pointing at their suppliers. Bottom line: they should have noticed the problem during assembly.

So to expect perfection all the time based on a reputation isn't realistic. There are plenty of other engine shops that can build engines to high standards, if one is not confident to tackle a build under supervision. Lycoming engines are crude with sloppy tolerances even on new parts.
 
I went with a Thunderbolt and I have really enjoyed the experience. I am not going to speak badly of anyone else, but I did have contact issues with other providers. In the end, it was really counter intuitive, but I felt like a number at the small shops and like a friend at the big company. Lycoming (Thunderbolt) was able to easily swap out the components for the ones that I wanted. They also hooked me up with other people (vendors) in the industry to get some custom components made. I am normally not one for plugging companies, but I think not enough people know how good thunderbolt treats their customers. On top of that, their pricing is spot on.

http://karrelsj.blogspot.com/search?q=thunderbolt
 
Bob, I sent you a private message about your engine. Got a Lycon built engine as well and would love to pick your brain. kenny
 
Aerosport

When I was at this stage I learned that Van only bought engines for his personal planes and the company planes from Bart at Aerosport Power. Considering I live not too far from them I figured that was a pretty good referral. I saved enough over the new Lycoming price to buy the Hartzell BA prop. 1200 hours later I'm very happy with the engine and will give them a call when it's time for overhaul or replacement. However, Bart is no longer there so I would want to know if they have maintained the same level of quality, maybe query Van's again as to where they get their engines.
 
When I was at this stage I learned that Van only bought engines for his personal planes and the company planes from Bart at Aerosport Power. Considering I live not too far from them I figured that was a pretty good referral. I saved enough over the new Lycoming price to buy the Hartzell BA prop. 1200 hours later I'm very happy with the engine and will give them a call when it's time for overhaul or replacement. However, Bart is no longer there so I would want to know if they have maintained the same level of quality, maybe query Van's again as to where they get their engines.

I have recently received 2 quotes from them. One for an engine built with new Lycoming parts and one as an overhaul (they provide core which adds 8K to the price) with the same specs less roller rockers.

Both of them are significantly higher than Van's price. Also the overhaul is more than the new with an even higher option to convert to roller rockers.

It seems that Lycoming is pricing parts so high for engine builders that they are having a hard time competing with the factory new option. Talk about price fixing.....
 
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And don't forget Titan direct from the factory, I have a new engine on order for my RV7, not sure why anyone would go used with the price of a new one being quite reasonable.
They will also do whatever you want as far as custom options.
This will be my second ECI/Titan engine, obviously I was happy with the first one or I wouldn't be buying another one.
On average about 1/3 of your airplane value is based on engine/prop value.

http://www.continentalmotors.aero/titan/experimental-kit-engines.aspx
 
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I have recently received 2 quotes from them. One for an engine built with new Lycoming parts and one as an overhaul (they provide core which adds 8K to the price) with the same specs less roller rockers.

Both of them are significantly higher than Van's price. Also the overhaul is more than the new with an even higher option to convert to roller rockers.

It seems that Lycoming is pricing parts so high for engine builders that they are having a hard time competing with the factory new option. Talk about price fixing.....

That?s different from what I experienced once the fuel system, ignition system, and alternators were added and factored in to the final cost. They also put 9:1 pistons in which, if you were considering, I don?t believe is an option with Van?s. Nor I dont believe is optional work such as porting and polishing. Correct me if I am wrong.
 
engine

"...not sure why anyone would go used with the price of a new one being quite reasonable..."

Reasonable? That's hilarious! For what these engines cost, they ought to be plated in gold.

I found that a new thunderbolt engine, done to my specs, was nearly $10K MORE than my Barrett...

I also looked at Aerosport and it was priced similarly to the thunderbolt...

Very happy with the Barrett product and their customer service has been outstanding...
 
I found that a new thunderbolt engine, done to my specs, was nearly $10K MORE than my Barrett...

I also looked at Aerosport and it was priced similarly to the thunderbolt...

Hmmm. Mine was about $2k more through Aerosport, all other things being equal. Dunno why that would be.
 
engine

I went with Dual EFII, Cold Air, 9:1, Heavy Rods, B&C starter and Alternator, and Reiff Preheat. The Quote they sent me was about $10K more than I paid at Barrett for the same setup.

It was on par with the Thunderbolt, though. At the time, Thunderbolt didn't want to build the engine my way, either.
 
I went with Dual EFII, Cold Air, 9:1, Heavy Rods, B&C starter and Alternator, and Reiff Preheat. The Quote they sent me was about $10K more than I paid at Barrett for the same setup.

It was on par with the Thunderbolt, though. At the time, Thunderbolt didn't want to build the engine my way, either.

Mine was dual SDS, CAI, 9:1, Skytec starter, B&C alternator. No heavy rods or preheat.
 
That?s different from what I experienced once the fuel system, ignition system, and alternators were added and factored in to the final cost. They also put 9:1 pistons in which, if you were considering, I don?t believe is an option with Van?s. Nor I dont believe is optional work such as porting and polishing. Correct me if I am wrong.

Quotes were configured the same with the same options except for the B&C starter vs the Skytec one that Vans provides. All that other stuff are options that were not included in their price.
 
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