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Honor among theives (or pilots)...

RhinoDrvr

Well Known Member
Pretty angry right now; I'm in the market for an RV-8, and found one on trade-a-plane. (Wasn't listed here, now I think I know why).

Called the seller up, asked my standard list of questions, seeing if the airplane was indeed something I was interested in. It was. Offered a 10% deposit to hold the airplane while I arranged for a good pre-buy inspection. Seller declined stating "Just set up your inspection, I don't need your money."

So I get all the funds for the airplane ready to transfer, and call Randy Richardson over at 52F and set up a Pre-Buy. Randy was great to work with and we quickly came up with a plan to get the airplane inspected. I call the seller, and he says the airplane can be inspected any time. Again, I ensured that he wasn't interested in a deposit? Nope.

I call Randy back and give him contact info for the seller, then I look to email the seller to expect a phone call from Randy. Right before I did this I find an email in my inbox THAT THE AIRPLANE HAS BEEN SOLD?! :eek:

Seller calls today and says that a buyer had purchased the airplane without a Pre-Buy, this morning.

I really hope this isn't standard practice selling aircraft. My understanding was that either a reasonable deposit or a gentleman's agreement to hold the aircraft would be sufficient to allow time to organize an inspection? What if I had already paid Randy for his time to inspect the airplane, and bought my plane ticket to come pick the airplane up?! Thousands of dollars would have been wasted due to a lack of common courtesy. I don't think people like that hang around VAF, which is why I'm thinking the airplane wasn't listed here. Either that, or there was something about the airplane that would have been discovered during the Pre-Buy that the seller wasn't disclosing.

Am I missing somethin in the aircraft buying process? Is there a method of avoiding wasting large amounts of time and money like this in the future?
 
Certainly an "other" in the world of aviation, but lacking signed paperwork, can't say it is surprising to have a seller take a bird in the hand. Karma's cruelty is all you can hope for (a better deal is certainly around the corner for you).
 
Given this situation, I would have expected exactly that outcome. The guy didn't want to accept your earnest money because he already thought he might have a firm unconditional offer. You were the back up.
 
I have had it happen multiple times. With aircraft. New cars. You name it. It can be very infuriating. I tried to use each occurrence as a learning experience.

Around 1992 I was set to buy a VariEze in in Houston. I called the seller the day the advertisement hit (Monday) and I was ready come look at it immediately. The seller said I was first in line but nobody could come see it or buy it until the weekend as he was too busy with some sort of family matter. So I honored his wishes and stayed in touch with the fellow and drove 11 hours Friday afternoon and got a local hotel. I was at the airport bright and early Saturday morning as agreed. When I arrived the Eze was pulled out in front of the FBO which I thought was thoughtful of the Seller since I had come so far. I walked up and introduced myself to the Seller and asked if this was the Eze for sale. He said yes but it just sold to two fellows who came the previous day against the seller's request. Not even the courtesy of a phone call on that one. Often nice guys finish last.

Years later I made a deal on a new pickup at a car dealer in Denton and put down a deposit. The wife and I were traveling up from Corpus Christi in the Comanche and we overnight-ed at the Hangar Hotel in Fredericksburgh, TX with the idea of flying up to Denton bright and early to do the paperwork and have her drive the new pickup home 6 hours West. Again I coordinated with the salesman that night and early the next morning before we launched for Denton. We landed at the Denton airport and the salesman was waiting for us as arranged. I asked him why he didn't drive the new vehicle out to meet us and he informed me they had sold the truck while we were en route.

Once the blood cools down you generally realize that you probably didn't want to do business with somebody who breaks their word. They have effectively established they are unreliable at a minimum and or even flat out dishonest at the most. They probably wouldn't think twice about conveniently not disclosing things like damage history or problems with the aircraft.

I say keep your business to those who keep their word and are genuine. Shun the dishonorable types.

Jim
 
Money talks, ____ Walks

Although I would have called you before accepting an offer myself, many people don't do that. As the old saying goes Money Talks and you know what Walks. I' not saying you had any other intentions than to buy that plane but maybe he felt that if you did a pre-buy there was a possibility that you wouldn't have purchased the plane and someone with money in their hands gives them exactly what they want, a sold airplane. We've bought and sold a bunch of planes over the past few years and it's been the same for us. If you see a plane you like, jump on it. Go look at it and make the effort... give the seller a deposit and contract pending a pre-buy and be quick. Put yourself in their shoes... maybe they needed the money to put food on the table tonight ? ... just saying you never know their circumstances.
 
I dunno about this one. I honestly don't blame the seller for selling if someone has cash and is willing to deal right then and there with no hassle. It's how I bought my 172 a few months ago.

The guy was about a 3 hour drive away, but I took cash. The seller had been jerked around by buyers wanting to hold the plane for pre-buys, etc, and he was pretty ticked. I took cash money with me and a mechanic I trusted. We drove down, and the guy met us there at the hangar. We got there a few hours before another person who was supposedly driving in to see the plane. The guy even told us "theres someone else coming in to look at this evening", and I told him I was going to do my best to beat that guy there. We did.
After letting my buddy look it over and test fly it, we made the guy a low cash offer and told him that we had the intentions of flying the bird home that night and no hassle on his part for that price....just give us a bill of sale and the keys. He took our lowball offer, and then drove home with cold hard cash in his hand, and my buddy flew the plane back home that night.

Later when I called the guy to get his shipping address (he forgot his headset in the plane by accident) he told me that he had 3 other people all trying to put a deposit down, or asking him to hold the plane, or wanting him to fly it for a pre-buy the day we flew it home.

So, I honestly don't see anything wrong with it. The seller had a plane that people wanted, and there were buyers were willing to swoop in and take a risk of buying without having to put the seller through too much hassle. That means a lot to some people, especially with busy lives. The seller isn't there to be a convenience to you, they are there to sell their airplane at the best price with the least amount of hassle. Both price and hassle are negotiable to a degree, and both have value.

If a buyer wants to put me (as a seller) through a lot of hassle, then I am not going to be very negotiable on the price (my time has value).

Honestly, you should have expected something like this if the guy wouldn't agree to hold it for you or even take a deposit. The guy just wanted the plane sold as painfree as possible, and there were buyers out there to make that happen.
 
I think you have to take a step back and realize that the buyer was trying to sell an airplane and his best interest was served by selling to the first person who showed up and made an acceptable offer on the airplane.

Taking the airplane off of the market because someone has committed to inspect it in a day or two means you have to turn away prospective buyers.

I think the guy did the right thing - didn't take a deposit, and gave you a heads-up that the airplane had been sold, so you and/or your mechanic didn't show up to inspect an airplane that was long gone.

There are plenty of airplanes out there. Good luck finding the right one.
 
I can appreciate that the seller took the most appealing, easy to close deal that he came across. My point is that I have never conducted business like that when selling via classifieds.

I used to buy and sell custom firearms, which, while not near the cost of airplanes were rather spendy ($3000-$5000). I would take the inquires in the order I received them. If buyer #1 needed a week to get the money together or run it buy the household treasury (which happened quite often), then I would tell buyer #2 he was second in line, pending the sale falling through. A few times I was offered over my asking price to sell the gun out of order, and I refused. That's just how I chose to conduct business.

I guess that it is unreasonable to expect the same out of everyone else, but that's what I had hoped for, which was the reasoning for my offering a deposit; to show my genuine interest in taking the airplane home.

What I absolutely cannot do though is to lay out $70k in cash for an airplane with no Pre-Buy Inspection; that seems Ludacris to me, and if that's what it takes, I'm out of the airplane game it would appear.

I'm sure that there are other RV-8's out there to find. Also, maybe there was a condition that the seller feared the Pre-Buy would uncover that would put the sale in jeopardy. Either way, I probably got off lucky.
 
I have sold quite a few planes as well as plenty of other things. For small items, I always consider it sold to the first person who says "I'll take it". Making an offer or asking for more information is not sold. For an airplane, I always require a contract and deposit to consider it sold pending inspection with a limited number of days specified in the contract to at least move to the next step. I seldom mention to interested parties that there is someone else interested because I don't want people to think I am playing games. However, if someone says hey want to come look at it, I will tell them if someone is coming before them (previously scheduled) or after they plan to come if that person has first right of refusal, although I don't give that right without a contract and deposit. If I have a contract, I will tell any interested parties that I have a contract, but that the deal isn't closed. I think it is very bad business to let someone travel to see a plane or project without giving full disclosure.

In the case of the OP, if someone offers a deposit, then that should give them first right for at least a couple of days, even if the deposit is refused, unless the seller says that the first person there with cash gets it. Bad business by the seller, IMHO. He has the right to sell it to someone there with cash, but should have told the OP of that fact when he offered the deposit.

Oh, and when I accept a deposit, it is seldom fully refundable unless there is an airworthiness issue that I did not realize or the deposit is received from a replacement buyer. Otherwise a deposit from a tire kicker gets them first right with no cost to them if they don't show or don't want it.
 
I wish I read Jesse's post before I embarked on my first Vans aircraft purchase.

My experience was similar to the ops except a few instances where I spent money to get on airlines to go see planes. When I got there they were not even close to how the sellers represented them. But, it was not a total loss because I learned a bunch in the process.

There was a case where a plane that met almost all of my criteria was advertised somewhere other than VAF. Based on talking to the seller and all the info he provided I had a good feeling about it and after coordinating with the seller, I purchased airline tickets to go and see it but not before making an offer for a non-refundable deposit to hold my place.

The seller refused the deposit and the morning I was scheduled to fly out I called him and he advised me it was sold. I should have seen his refusal of a non-refundable offer for deposit as a red flag but I didn't, my bad. I do know now and Jesse and others have reinforced it.

It all worked out very well in the end because I got the plane I wanted for a price I was willing to pay.

With all the past experience I made an offer and gave the owner a $500.00 non-refundable deposit. This was based on two other lookers here on VAF who had seen the plane and communicating to me about their observations.

Through the process I made some friends and got the plane I wanted. One of my friends told me to be patient, not to rush it. His advise was spot on. Thanks Jim!
 
Having sold my RV-10 last year and my experience with phone calls, emails, canceled appointments, empty promises, and myself trying to do the right thing by the gentleman style of giving potential buyers first right of refusal, never again. First person that shows up with money and signs a binding offer to purchase gets the plane. No more Mr. Nice Guy. "Show me the money"!
 
Having sold my RV-10 last year and my experience with phone calls, emails, canceled appointments, empty promises, and myself trying to do the right thing by the gentleman style of giving potential buyers first right of refusal, never again. First person that shows up with money and signs a binding offer to purchase gets the plane. No more Mr. Nice Guy. "Show me the money"!

How many of those people who no-show'd had offered you a 10% deposit?
 
I am in the camp, unless agreed to otherwise, first one with acceptable cash offer gets it.
I am blunt about it though; I tell the prospective buyer exactly that. When selling my Aerostar a few years ago, I did have a guy who had to arrange some long distance travel to come and inspect. He put down a non-refundable deposit to hold the plane for a period; other callers at the time were told they were number 2.

Tim
 
How many of those people who no-show'd had offered you a 10% deposit?

A deposit doesn't mean the airplane is sold. If I were selling, and someone offered me a 10% deposit, I would contract it so that the deposit was not 100% refundable. The buyer is paying me in advance for all the extra hassle, as well as paying me for all the potential lost sales because I am "holding" the plane for them. That would be the only way I'd personally take a deposit on something. A buyer is going to pay me *something* for all that time and hassle, even if they end up not buying the airplane.
 
It can be worse

I don't see any particular problem with the treatment of the OP, but believe me it can get worse:

I was interested in an RV-8 in the Midwest (I'm on the East Coast). Made the phone calls and discussed the airplane. Sounded good. Found a great Pre-Buy inspector in the area and arranged a Pre-Buy.

Pre-Buy occurred. Seemed to be a good airplane. I call and email the seller - I'll buy it at the asking price. Let's make plans for my coming out there - whenever is convenient.

No answer to either.

Next day I call seller.

No answer.

Next day I email to the seller and this time I get an email back saying that he finally discussed the idea of selling the plane with the family and the family did not want to sell the airplane and didn't give him permission to do so.

Well - the guy could have checked with the family FIRST and be sure he could sell the thing before he put it on the market and wasted people's time and money. I wrote back saying just that and gave him my address to send a check back for the money I spent on the Pre-Buy.

Unsurprisingly I never heard from him again. I didn't expect him to send me the cost of the Pre-Buy but I thought I'd give him the chance to do the honorable thing.

He didn't.

I did find a good plane in Texas and the seller was a stand up guy who wouldn't take a down payment. I said I was worried that someone would get to the plane before me (that had happened a few times) and he said if I want the plane it's mine. I did and it was. He was a really good guy and there are sellers out there who are.
 
How many of those people who no-show'd had offered you a 10% deposit?
None. They were all tire kickers full of promises. Never again. If you are a serious buyer and find what you want, you need to stop what you are doing right now and get the deal done. You snooze you lose.
 
Ive sold exactly one airplane and I've become very jaded in that experience. It seems that there is a 20:1 ratio of "dreamers" to "buyers". Many weekend plans ruined to accomodate a "serious" buyer who really just wanted a free ride in my airplane. Some lessons learned:

- Talk is cheap - Zero negotiation on price unless you are ready to make a binding financial committment on the spot.

- Show me the money- a deposit to "hold" the airplane is generally Non refundable.

- Time is Money - Your deposit does not buy you "forever" to get your act together.

On the flip side, I've purchased 3 airplanes so far and I was prepared to pay full price on the spot in cash. The leverage this affords the buyer is lost on many people it seems. With so many dreamers and tire kickers out there, even a lowball offer in cash looks pretty good to the frustrated seller. Interstingly, this detail actually caught one Rocket seller off guard... He did not accept a stack of $100 bills, he wanted me to get a cashiers check! This delay cost him the sale, as I had another candidate in mind and he had no problem accepting a paper sack full of cash. Buyers market!
 
You might consider a broker. They make a fair living as a professional buyer/seller of aircraft. The fee may very well cover the time and frustration of trying to do it yourself. I know folks who use brokers so they don't have to deal with all of the tire kickers, no shows, abusive people, liars, and cheats. That's what you pay them for.
 
Ive sold exactly one airplane and I've become very jaded in that experience. It seems that there is a 20:1 ratio of "dreamers" to "buyers". Many weekend plans ruined to accomodate a "serious" buyer who really just wanted a free ride in my airplane. Some lessons learned:

- Talk is cheap - Zero negotiation on price unless you are ready to make a binding financial committment on the spot.

- Show me the money- a deposit to "hold" the airplane is generally Non refundable.

- Time is Money - Your deposit does not buy you "forever" to get your act together.

On the flip side, I've purchased 3 airplanes so far and I was prepared to pay full price on the spot in cash. The leverage this affords the buyer is lost on many people it seems. With so many dreamers and tire kickers out there, even a lowball offer in cash looks pretty good to the frustrated seller. Interstingly, this detail actually caught one Rocket seller off guard... He did not accept a stack of $100 bills, he wanted me to get a cashiers check! This delay cost him the sale, as I had another candidate in mind and he had no problem accepting a paper sack full of cash. Buyers market!

TBH, I'm not sure I'd accept a wad of hundreds, either, when we're talking about something as expensive as a plane.
 
TBH, I'm not sure I'd accept a wad of hundreds, either, when we're talking about something as expensive as a plane.

I find this completely odd, no offense. Why not? It's the only way to be sure you will get paid with no hassle. If you're worried about counterfitting, just have the buyer meet you at your bank, and they can check the money as they deposit it. Even simple, about $5 bucks will buy one of those pens at Staples to check it yourself.

When I bought my 172, the guy was asking 37k and said the price was "firm". I took 37k in $100 bills, because I had planned on paying that much if he didn't budge on price. When I was happy with the plane, I brought out 32,500 in $100 bills and put on the table and told him "I'm ready to buy the plane now, have my friend here fly it home tonight and you'll never see us again if this is an acceptable price to you".

I honestly didn't see anything weird or odd about me bringing cash to the deal. It's the easiest form of currency during a transaction. I honestly believe if I hadn't brought cash with me, he would not have taken that low of an offer, since he said he was "firm" on his initial price. I saved him and myself a **** ton of time in that deal.
 
I find this completely odd, no offense. Why not? It's the only way to be sure you will get paid with no hassle.

There are other ways, and they won't trigger a CTR when you deposit it, AFAIK, either.

I wouldn't be carrying around that much cash, either, if I were buying. Ever hear the stories of cops seizing large amounts of cash just because they can, and then you get the pleasure of *trying* to get it back? Oftentimes done at airports because, hey, only drug dealers carry large amounts of cash.

This is 2017...there are better ways of handling large-dollar transactions. :)
 
I bought and then sold a partially built RV-3B (and I'm still sad about it). Buying and selling were done the same way: 1st cash in hand offer.

When I arranged to fly out of state to inspect and potentially buy it, I first, sent a non-refundable deposit to the Seller to secure first right of refusal. Then (quickly) arranged to go there, brought the remaining cash in hand, inspected it and bought it same day. In fact, I showed up in a U-Haul truck. The point is, my intentions were sincere and obvious to the Seller. In the end, he had 3 other guys after/during the process; some of which offered even more money, but I was forthright with him, did what I said I was going to do, and in turn, he delivered the same courtesy to me.

Later, when I realized I needed money to finish my 10 and sold the 3B project (man, I'm still sad about it...). the buyer and his wife, from Florida, bought it pretty much the same way. Non-refundable deposit, showed up with a U-Haul and the remainder of the offer in cash, ready to buy after inspecting it.
 
So I can learn the process better (first time buyer)

For everyone saying that they put down non-refundable deposits;

1.) What if the airplane fails pre-buy due to undisclosed issues? If that's the case I could make a lot of money on non-refundable deposits to see my piece of junk...

2.) How much money are you guys generally talking? I was offering 10% of the asking price, but I'm obviously not okay with $7k-$10k bring non-refundable.

3.) Do most of you skip organizing a pre-buy to make a quick purchase? That's a risk I just am not willing to take; especially with a homebuilt airplane.

I ask so I can learn how to better execute next time (or realize that it's going to take a while to find a seller I can work with)
 
I do LOTS of prebuys all over the country, and I have yet to see anyone get stiffed. I have seen buyers put down $10K on an airplane, subject to the prebuy inspection, and have ALL of their money refunded when we walk away from it. It's too bad you had this experience, but I think it is not the norm, at least from my observations. Perhaps it is because we have good, in-depth conversations with sellers prior to spending any monies on travel, and it helps to weed out the "unscrupulous" sellers.

Two pieces of advice I would give, for what it's worth: don't put down non-refundable deposits, and don't get emotionally attached until you have had a prebuy by a qualified individual. It's a whole lot easier to get burned by doing it any other way, and I have seen plenty of those. :(

Vic
 
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If you are a buyer, the risk is on you to get your eyes on the airplane before the next guy. And if you want it, you better have money on you. JMHO.

And I may be old school, but I see nothing wrong with buying something with cash.
 
So I can learn the process better (first time buyer)

For everyone saying that they put down non-refundable deposits;

1.) What if the airplane fails pre-buy due to undisclosed issues? If that's the case I could make a lot of money on non-refundable deposits to see my piece of junk...

2.) How much money are you guys generally talking? I was offering 10% of the asking price, but I'm obviously not okay with $7k-$10k bring non-refundable.

3.) Do most of you skip organizing a pre-buy to make a quick purchase? That's a risk I just am not willing to take; especially with a homebuilt airplane.

I ask so I can learn how to better execute next time (or realize that it's going to take a while to find a seller I can work with)


First off it's important to keep in mind that there is no foolproof way for the buyer or seller to prevent getting screwed.

For example given your #1:

Ok so say you draw up a contract that says seller will hold the plane for a 10% deposit. The deposit is non-refundable UNLESS the pre-buy uncovers problems that turns the buyer off.

Well what if the seller disputed the severity of the "turn off"? Who adjudicates that? Suppose the buyer saw some poorly installed instruments on the panel - cosmetically poor. Holes a little too big. Nothing that makes the plane unsafe but now there's a worry in the buyer's mind that there maybe other hidden workmanship errors and so it's a turn off.

But...the seller knows it's just cosmetic and the rest of the plane is fine?

What can turn a person off is different from person to person. I saw a plane with a mis-shapen cowling induction. Turn off.

Who is right? Who adjudicates that?

On the other hand, if a seller is required to give money for holding the plane and it's non-refundable then the seller might be out several thousands of dollars because finding just the right plane can take some time.

The methodology I used to find my plane worked ok. There were pitfalls. I never put holding money down. The time it took me to arrange pre-buys lost me airplanes. This is because the planes were in Arizona or Texas (for example) and I'm in New England and I didn't even KNOW any good inspectors - anywhere. On the other hand, having the Pre-buy done before I travel saved me LOTS of travel money...I was waved off of several airplanes by the inspector. Here is what I did:

1) Make a list of my absolute requirements, my "would be nice", and my instant wave offs.

- Example: if I'm looking for an RV-4 I would not buy one without the updated stronger firewall weldments.

2) Made a spreadsheet that had a column for each plane under consideration.

3) When I found a plane that looked nice on paper I'd start a spreadsheet column on the plane. I'd call the seller and get all the info I could about it - filled in the spread sheet.

4) If it looked good I'd find a Pre-Buy inspector. If it was long distance (like Texas or Arizona) I'd have the Pre-buy inspector look at it. BTW I worked out a whole checklist on selecting inspectors.

NOTE: I have shown some good faith here because I paid for a Pre-Buy. A tire kicker would not do that. So the seller knows I'm not a tire kicker. Doesn't mean I'm going to buy the plane but the seller should rest easy that I'm not a tire kicker.

5) If the plane still looks good I fly out to see the plane and take a ride.

NOTE: The buyer has further indication that I'm not a tire kicker because I flew say, from New England to Texas to look at the plane.

Sometimes I met the inspector when the plane was inspected. I did that when I was looking at a prospective airplane in South Carolina: I met Vic Syracuse at the airport where the plane was and I learned huge amounts by being there with him.

7) If I still liked the plane I sat with the seller and we talked price. If we could make a deal we had a deal. If not...not.

Yes this is a long drawn out process especially when you are starting. Just collecting a list of Pre-Buy inspectors is time consuming. Once you have the list, though you can start to move quicker on planes.

Yes you can lose airplanes if they are a long ways away from you and you have to do things remotely. And many of them will be long ways away from you.

But I found a good plane this way.
 
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So I can learn the process better (first time buyer)

For everyone saying that they put down non-refundable deposits;

1.) What if the airplane fails pre-buy due to undisclosed issues? If that's the case I could make a lot of money on non-refundable deposits to see my piece of junk...

2.) How much money are you guys generally talking? I was offering 10% of the asking price, but I'm obviously not okay with $7k-$10k bring non-refundable.

3.) Do most of you skip organizing a pre-buy to make a quick purchase? That's a risk I just am not willing to take; especially with a homebuilt airplane.

I ask so I can learn how to better execute next time (or realize that it's going to take a while to find a seller I can work with)

It's all negotiable.

The key is to have a clear understanding. If there's more than pocket money in play, that means a written agreement. Scanners and email make it fast.

BTW, I've been buying and selling every work day for about 40 years, and I strongly recommend you do not carry large amounts of cash. In addition to your personal risk from law breakers and law enforcement, a professional seller (1) is not motivated by the sight of green cash (same profit with a check or wire transfer), (2) must file an IRS 8300 (identifying you to the tax authorities), and (3) generally considers it to be a PITA.
 
I agree that a "professional" seller is not going to be motivated by cash, but the private seller frustrated by the endless stream of deadbeat tire kickers might be.

At any rate, the salient point is that you should be ready to make a firm financial committment at the appropriate time... And nothing says "commitment" to me stronger than a wad of cash.
 
You might consider a broker. They make a fair living as a professional buyer/seller of aircraft. The fee may very well cover the time and frustration of trying to do it yourself. I know folks who use brokers so they don't have to deal with all of the tire kickers, no shows, abusive people, liars, and cheats. That's what you pay them for.

That's why I broker planes, but only if I have flown the plane and have it in my possession. I can weed out the tire kickers, and I can answer all of the questions people ask. There are always tire kickers, but when someone is serious, I write up a sales agreement that is agreeable to both the seller and the buyer and there is a deposit (partially non refundable unless something unairworthy is found that I didn't realize). Otherwise tire kickers get a free look, which is unfair to the seller and potential buyers who are serious. I also have no emotional attachment. I have seen sellers lose sales because a potential buyer didn't like so,etching about the plane and the seller was offended. I always tell He buyer what I like and what I don't like about the plane I am selling, what I would change if it was mine, end so on.

I have never had a seller or buyer that wasn't happy with that service.

I also often provide transition training, service, repairs, upgrades and mods on he planes I sell or do Prebuy inspections on.
 
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This is really the other side of the coin for me. There are so many *(&@&*^* tire kickers out there that I'm on the side of "whoever puts money in my hands first gets an airplane" camp.

But, yeah, maybe make that clear on first contact.
 
Or dope dealer. :)

Which doesn't matter an ounce to me, so long as he has cash and is willing to pay my price for the airplane.

I have bought and sold a lot of "toys", some with high price tags, with cash. I don't know how it could have been any easier. Not to mention, I don't have to fool with any banks to get access to that money later on. My wife and I sold a BMW to a couple in the parking lot of a Starbucks with cash. They found the car on craigslist, agreed to meet us at Starbucks, and I had the car sold and the deal completed before my wife finished her cup of coffee. We walked over and had a steak at a nearby steakhouse then ubered home. Took the money 2 days later and paid cash for a nice boat, which I also sold about a 18 months later for cash, right at the boat slip. Then took that wad of cash a few months later and bought a 172. It never hit a bank, or any other sort of FinCen. I dunno how it could have been easier.

Of course, that's my own anecdotal experience and I don't deal drugs :)
 
Of course...I don't deal drugs :)

Neither do many of the people who get tens of thousands of dollars in cash seized by the cops (federal or otherwise) every year.

Just *having* that amount of money on you makes it suspicious enough, apparently, that they can seize it. And good luck getting it back.

Want to make it even more suspicious? Carry the cash on board a commercial plane, with a one-way ticket...you're on your way to buy the plane, but to DEA, you look like a dope dealer.

Hey, I'd love to do all my transactions in cash (having been the victim of credit card/identity theft a time or two, it's a PITA), but...

Just saying that there is a downside to all-cash transactions no matter what is being bought or sold, it's not a panacea nor is it a way to avoid any and all risk, and people should know that.

As mentioned, depositing more than 10K in cash triggers a notification to the feds, and who knows what they do, but now they're looking at you to see what you're up to (and no, breaking it up into multiple deposits of < 10K doesn't help, and is itself illegal).
 
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Since we seem to be getting way off into left field. IMHO
Even leaving Government out of it, Posting about doing a lot of big cash deals opens up another can of worms, like the ones who might show up one day wanting to take it from you??? Because somehow the wrong person heard about it.
In my book, nothing wrong with cash dealings but why not keep it to yourself so you don't have to worry about the word getting out???

Just food for thought.
 
Sign of the Times?

I bought my first aircraft back in 1967, like 50 years ago. It used to be that aviators seemed to be of only the very highest character, I never even heard of such problems back then. Since then I have been taken to the cleaners multiple times. One came over 1000 miles, flew my plane all day, then said it was a great plane, and if I still had it a year from now he would consider buying it! Another was doing a pre-buy/annual and changed his mind mid sale, leaving me with an aircraft in pieces and a mechanic that wanted some cash for what he had done.
 
2.) How much money are you guys generally talking? I was offering 10% of the asking price, but I'm obviously not okay with $7k-$10k bring non-refundable.
Nobody has mentioned this yet, but "non-refundable" generally means if the buyer backs out they don't get their deposit back. If the seller backs out, however, they are obligated to return the deposit. Otherwise, the seller could just line up half a dozen people, take their deposits, and then back out of all the sales and keep the cash. So in the case of the OP, when the other buyer showed up with the "sack of cash" (or whatever), he got the plane. But the OP got his deposit back.

3.) Do most of you skip organizing a pre-buy to make a quick purchase? That's a risk I just am not willing to take; especially with a homebuilt airplane.
As a rule? No. But you'll have to play each situation by ear, and evaluate whether you really want the airplane regardless of condition, or whether you want to know the condition intimately before you buy. I almost bought an RV-4 sight-unseen (except for photos) due to the large quantity of high-detail photos showing everything I wanted to see in person anyway. Unfortunately, that fell through as there were a dozen others looking at the same plane, and it looked like it was going to get into a bidding war.
 
I had this happen to me from a sleaze ball guy in 3GV in Kansas City. I ended up getting much nicer plane for a better price with fewer hours.
 
Nobody has mentioned this yet, but "non-refundable" generally means if the buyer backs out they don't get their deposit back. If the seller backs out, however, they are obligated to return the deposit. Otherwise, the seller could just line up half a dozen people, take their deposits, and then back out of all the sales and keep the cash. So in the case of the OP, when the other buyer showed up with the "sack of cash" (or whatever), he got the plane. But the OP got his deposit back...

Id like to think this is common courtesy and obvious, but you are probably right to mention it.

A non refundable deposit does at least two things:

1. It establishes the buyer as "serious" and

2. It partially offsets the potential lost sale if you turn a cash buyer away.

That said, if I take a deposit from you and nobody calls or looks at the airplane during your "deposit period" (have not suffered a loss), then you are most likely getting it all back, regardless of the reason for backing out. But thats just how I roll.
 
So I can learn the process better (first time buyer)

For everyone saying that they put down non-refundable deposits;

1.) What if the airplane fails pre-buy due to undisclosed issues? If that's the case I could make a lot of money on non-refundable deposits to see my piece of junk...

2.) How much money are you guys generally talking? I was offering 10% of the asking price, but I'm obviously not okay with $7k-$10k bring non-refundable.

3.) Do most of you skip organizing a pre-buy to make a quick purchase? That's a risk I just am not willing to take; especially with a homebuilt airplane.

I ask so I can learn how to better execute next time (or realize that it's going to take a while to find a seller I can work with)

I would expect it to be pretty much like buying a house.

You make an offer contingent to inspection with an earnest money deposit large enough that it is not easy to walk away from. I would be skeptical if the seller wanted more than $3k-5k for an earnest money deposit.

The contingency allows you to back out for specific cause. If your mechanic says the horiz stab is improperly attached per the plans, that's it! You get your money back.

But, once the seller accepts that earnest money, it would be improper for him to be accepting other offers.

That's why the contingent offer with terms should be in writing. That makes it a legally binding contract. If he won't accept your earnest money, its because he already has someone interest he thinks will close the deal. He just doesn't want to jinx it. No cause to grumble. It may not be polite, but he didn't do anything wrong. JMHO
 
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I had a buddy buy a house out from under me. I made a deal with a guy and told him I was out of town for the next two weeks for work, but my wife had already secured financing and I emailed him a copy of the approval.

A "friend" went in and offered him 10K more cash and they guy took it. It was on an airpark, had a nice hangar, I could afford it, and my "buddy" already had a home and hangar on that airpark... He bought it to flip it.

I was pissed at both, but I understood the seller. My "buddy"??? Well, after I made **** sure he had made the additional offer AFTER he knew I had a deal... I have not talked to him in over a year. He is dead to me.

Another story, I sold my 7ECA. A guy came to look at it and even without flying it asked me how I wanted to get paid. He told me it could be a personal or business check right then, or he could send me a cashiers check Monday. I said Cashiers check and sure enough, on Tue I got a check. I took it to my bank and it was good. At this point we had not done ANY paperwork, just a handshake. When the weather was good, I flew the plane to him. We filled out the FAA paperwork and wrote on a piece of paper "NXXXXX sold as is where is". He then flew be back to my home airport.

So the worst experience and maybe the best experience.
 
I usually recommend a deposit of $2,500-5,000. $500 is way to easy to walk away from to ask a seller to hold of another customer for a week or two.
 
I had a buddy buy a house out from under me. I made a deal with a guy and told him I was out of town for the next two weeks for work, but my wife had already secured financing and I emailed him a copy of the approval.

A "friend" went in and offered him 10K more cash and they guy took it. It was on an airpark, had a nice hangar, I could afford it, and my "buddy" already had a home and hangar on that airpark... He bought it to flip it.

I was pissed at both, but I understood the seller. My "buddy"??? Well, after I made **** sure he had made the additional offer AFTER he knew I had a deal... I have not talked to him in over a year. He is dead to me.

Another story, I sold my 7ECA. A guy came to look at it and even without flying it asked me how I wanted to get paid. He told me it could be a personal or business check right then, or he could send me a cashiers check Monday. I said Cashiers check and sure enough, on Tue I got a check. I took it to my bank and it was good. At this point we had not done ANY paperwork, just a handshake. When the weather was good, I flew the plane to him. We filled out the FAA paperwork and wrote on a piece of paper "NXXXXX sold as is where is". He then flew be back to my home airport.

So the worst experience and maybe the best experience.

An acquaintance/friend made us an offer on our house at our last fly-in community. Unfortunately, he didn't have any money for a down payment until he sold his current house. So we shook hands on it. Two days leater I received an "immediate offer" for $25K more. It was a no-brainer to me. I stuck with my handshake and waited a few months before he was able to close. That extra $25K sure would have been nice, but not worth it.
Sometimes our integrity is what makes a difference in life. Some of the stories here have been quite shocking and unscrupulous, but I hope they are the exceptions. Certainly, from what I have seen, they are.

Vic
 
Neither do many of the people who get tens of thousands of dollars in cash seized by the cops (federal or otherwise) every year.

Just *having* that amount of money on you makes it suspicious enough, apparently, that they can seize it. And good luck getting it back.

Want to make it even more suspicious? Carry the cash on board a commercial plane, with a one-way ticket...you're on your way to buy the plane, but to DEA, you look like a dope dealer.

As mentioned, depositing more than 10K in cash triggers a notification to the feds, and who knows what they do, but now they're looking at you to see what you're up to (and no, breaking it up into multiple deposits of < 10K doesn't help, and is itself illegal).

And if you can show you are going to "X" to maybe buy "Y" it is a non-issue. The police get suspicious when a 20 year old guy driving a 1973 POS with gang tats happens to have 40K dollars in a duffel bag and can't answer a simple question like, "Where did you get all this money?"

And a CTR report does pretty much nothing. It notifies some people and 99% of the time they just ignore it. If god forbid someone actually bothers to ask you, you can just show them either the plane, or the advertisement you were looking at.... Or do what I do and tell them it is none of their business unless they have a badge.

Source: I do this all the time, did it just last week. My wife is in banking. My Mom was in banking.
 
I recently got a lesson on how bad things have got. A friend of mine was over a thousand miles from me, sold his plane. He could not make it here to close the deal, so I said I would. I opened the hangar, showed the plane, and helped the buyer load it. I then went to the bank with $28,000 in cash, to deposit it in the sellers bank account.
It took me HOURS of being raked over the coals before the bank would allow me to deposit cash in another persons account! I am still not quite sure what they were thinking they were doing!
 
I recently got a lesson on how bad things have got. A friend of mine was over a thousand miles from me, sold his plane. He could not make it here to close the deal, so I said I would. I opened the hangar, showed the plane, and helped the buyer load it. I then went to the bank with $28,000 in cash, to deposit it in the sellers bank account.
It took me HOURS of being raked over the coals before the bank would allow me to deposit cash in another persons account! I am still not quite sure what they were thinking they were doing!

I never did get into why, but reporting rules and liability are the problem.
The solution is actually stupidly funny in most cases; and worked for me.
Deposit the money into your account. Then write a check for the amount to deposit into his account.

Tim
 
Back in time a bit, I used to find that making transactions in less than 10k made a difference. I should have tried deposits of $9500,
$9500, and $9000.
QUOTE=tspear;1195765]I never did get into why, but reporting rules and liability are the problem.
The solution is actually stupidly funny in most cases; and worked for me.
Deposit the money into your account. Then write a check for the amount to deposit into his account.

Tim[/QUOTE]
 
Back in time a bit, I used to find that making transactions in less than 10k made a difference. I should have tried deposits of $9500,
$9500, and $9000.

For a long time now, the rules have changed in such a way that will no longer work. I no longer subscribe to FINCEN to get the updates, but I know the rules keep being tweaked to catch people trying beat the system.

Tim
 
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