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9A/mogas/lyc 160

D

drmax

Well Known Member
Hello and I have searched and read. (beat you to it :eek:)
1st hand experience in the 9A with low compression 160 HP lyc running mogas? My intentions are, to keep 1 side 100LL and use only for take off and landing, while using the mogasen routee. I would switch over entirely, after it being proven in my plane. My neighbor runs it in his C140, similar engine, but his piping isobviouslyy different...hence why I'm being model specific and asking only 9A owners. Thank...DM
 
run 93 Octane with no ethynol

regularly in my RV -9. has 0320 D2J 160 HP with mid range compression pistons. I also use one side for the 93 and have 100LL in the other side. Almost always use the 100LL for take off and landings and to just purge the 93 out of the piping for when it sits in the hanger. After climb out and power back to cruise switch over to the 93. have not seen any adverse effect. If you do climb out on a hot day with the 93 especially with hot engine the CHT will go a bit higher that they do with the 100LL . Will see 425F until you either power back or get some higher airspeeds.
 
DennisRhodes said:
regularly in my RV -9. has 0320 D2J 160 HP with mid range compression pistons. I also use one side for the 93 and have 100LL in the other side. Almost always use the 100LL for take off and landings and to just purge the 93 out of the piping for when it sits in the hanger. After climb out and power back to cruise switch over to the 93. have not seen any adverse effect. If you do climb out on a hot day with the 93 especially with hot engine the CHT will go a bit higher that they do with the 100LL . Will see 425F until you either power back or get some higher airspeeds.
Click to expand...
thank you. i heard about what you just mentioned, and good advice on keeping 100LL in the pipeps with sitting. Winter ahead...it'll be sitting some, no doubt. I may just keep 100LL in both tanks at that time. I wonder about putting an agent in the fuel to keep the mogas from varnishing?
 
98RON Mogas all the time

Hello,

I run 98RON Mogas all the time in my fuel injected 164 HP, OX-320, 1:8,5 compr. (without ethanol/methanol !!). Keeps the spark plugs nice and clean (and I suspect all the rest of the engine as well). In the beginning I did the same as you: fill one tank with 100LL and the other with Mogas for take-off/cruise, but when switching between the two, there was absolutally no difference,........ no change in EGT's, CHT's, oil teomp, or power, at all.

For comparison: Mogas = $ 8,72/Gal, Avgas = $ 14,29/Gal, in Belgium at the moment.

I do have a return line, from the top of the fuel injection throtle body back to the tanks (double stack Andair fuel valve) and a cooling shroud on the fuel pump. So far I have not had any issues, not even while flying in Spain (+40°C.) or at 26.640 ft (-30°C)

Regards, Tonny.
 
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I fly with straight Premium Unleaded MoGas 100% of the time (checked to be ethanol free of course). The only time I use AvGas is when I'm away from my home airport. This is in an RV-7 / IO 360 with Lightspeed Electronic Ignition / 180 hp / 8.5 : 1 pistons. I always run 50 LOP at cruise. This results in 6.9 gph at 174 mph.

I have had no issues with vapor lock on a running engine. However, I have had vapor lock issues trying to start a hot engine. Running the electric fuel pump while cranking the engine solves this problem within about 10 seconds of cranking.

I use standard aviation plugs / Magneto in the bottom and auto plugs / Lightspeed on the top.

Current Prices in Washington State:

Premium Unleaded ... $4.30 / gal

AvGas ... $6.19 / gal
 
I run Mogas as much as possible (90% of the time). No issues to speak of. Like many, I am concerned about stagnation. If I dont plan on flying for a while I will fill up with 100LL.

I have been giving some dual in a Piper Cherokee 140 (o-320 150hp) and flat out refused to fly the plane with LL in it. It simply will not run smoothly on the LL.
 
Considerable Savings!!!!

....I average about 15 hours monthly of air time, that is 120 gallons of fuel.At a savings of $2 per that adds up, $240 a month or $2,880 per year. ...:D
 
What kind of mogas?

Allen,
you being located in CA. what kind of mogas are you running on, E10 presume?
 
Avgas VS Mogas

This is a good thread http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=87674 if you haven't already read it. In most cases, as you probably already know, it's not so much the mogas itself but the design of the fuel delivery system that's important regarding the ability to burn mogas safely. It appears as though that most people that's experiencing problems associated with mogas are related to, in one way or another, vapor lock. This can be overcome with a proper fuel delivery system which incorporates electric fuel pumps and a return line from the tank you're drawing the fuel from. The key is a constant flow of cool fuel which will virtually eliminate the possibility of vapor lock. In my 7, I'm incorporating two electric fuel pumps (one primary and one backup), and return fuel lines via an Andair duplex selector, and I have the pumps mounted below the lowest level of the fuel tanks so that they are always pushing fuel, not pulling it. My pump flows 30 GPH and just returns the unused fuel back to the tank from which it's drawn, so I'll always have cool fuel going to the engine. I hope to make my first flight by December and I intend on burning mogas exclusively.
 
Logistics

OK, so it seems that mogas will work fine in our engines. My field only sells 100LL and the nearest non-alcoholic gas is 10 miles away. So how do you transport it to your plane? Multiple trips with 5 gallon cans in the family car or can you purchase a 55 gallon drum of the stuff?
Alan
RV-4
 
Alan, I used to haul several 5 gallon cans in my truck, for the -6.

My -10 holds 60 gallons, so it's too much of a pain to haul at least half that in cans. So now just burn avgas at our local pump.

Best,
 
ABRV4 said:
OK, so it seems that mogas will work fine in our engines. My field only sells 100LL and the nearest non-alcoholic gas is 10 miles away. So how do you transport it to your plane? Multiple trips with 5 gallon cans in the family car or can you purchase a 55 gallon drum of the stuff?
Alan
RV-4
Click to expand...

Don't know where you are located, but here in Texas it's quite common to see pickups with 100-gallon tanks in the bed of the truck, usually for diesel fuel for agricultural use but could be any fuel. That's what I use. 12-volt electric pump and about a 15-foot hose and you're set. Just fill it up every so often in town.
 
Allan,
when are you going to get started on that Ethanol tolerant mechanical fuel pump???
You are getting everything else right, how about it?
 
The current standard mechanical fuel pumps found on many lycomings MAY or MAY NOT be alcohol tolerant. As I recall, the manufacturer just doesn't want to say one way or the other. Do I remember correctly that the guys is Brazil use the same pumps with their high alcohol content fuels and just change the pumps out after xxx number of hours?

I would like to see a comprehensive study/test to prove tolerance one way or the other. Allan????

Bevan
 
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I have recently communicated with someone in Brazil to confirm this and get more info on their installations.
The fellow told me that they use avgas for the most part and only a certain type of crop duster was certified to use 100% ethanol.
I am trying to find out more about it.
The Vanguard squadron on the other hand has used a standard mechanical fuel pump and one electric pump for over 16 years and has reported no problems with the mechanical fuel pump. That formation team has used any and all combinations of fuel and ethanol for their airshow performances and suffered no fuel related problems.
 
My solution for getting auto fuel to the airport.

I bought a 14gal gas buddy:
http://www.amazon.com/Moeller-DuraMax-Transfer-14-Gallon-Rolling/dp/B000MT94QA

I recommend cutting the useless pump handle off as it just slows the transfer and is leaky.

I built a simple tripod to aid with lifting it above wing level. I lay the tripod on the ground, lay the gas caddy on it and then use the leverage of the overly long 2x4 main tripod leg to lift it into position. Look closely to see the hose is draining into the tank. I tend to keep the right tank mostly mogas and the left tank a mogas/100ll mix.
http://www.imgur.com/hJsv0.jpeg

I get dual use out of it by filling both the boat(marina gas is almost as expensive as 100ll) and the plane. It has paid for itself in a month or two. I figure flying is at least $10/hour less expensive using non-ethanol and my IO-360 couldn't care less. It still takes some muscle to move 14 gallons around but I still find it worthwhile.
 
DakotaHawk said:
I fly with straight Premium Unleaded MoGas 100% of the time (checked to be ethanol free of course). The only time I use AvGas is when I'm away from my home airport. This is in an RV-7 / IO 360 with Lightspeed Electronic Ignition / 180 hp / 8.5 : 1 pistons. I always run 50 LOP at cruise. This results in 6.9 gph at 174 mph.

I have had no issues with vapor lock on a running engine. However, I have had vapor lock issues trying to start a hot engine. Running the electric fuel pump while cranking the engine solves this problem within about 10 seconds of cranking.

I use standard aviation plugs / Magneto in the bottom and auto plugs / Lightspeed on the top.

Current Prices in Washington State:

Premium Unleaded ... $4.30 / gal

AvGas ... $6.19 / gal
Click to expand...
I finally mixed 1/2 and 1/2 in my left tank, keeping the 100LL in the right at all times...for now. I didn't see any difference in cruising. 4.30 moG and 5.90 LL Indianapolis.
 
Congratulations

You'll be pleasantly surprised by how well your engine runs on mogas
and even more by how clean your plugs look as well as your oil and the rest of the rest of the engine.
 
Todd, I've been thinking of getting one of these. How do you fill it at the gas station. Do you leave it in your vehicle? I'm concerned about static. I've been using 5 gal cans that I put on the ground to fuel. A full 14gal container would be a pretty good lift to my truck bed. I was thinking of using a ground strap attached to the tank with the other end attached to a metal plate that I could stand on? As far as that goes what do people do with the saddle tanks in their trucks? Ground straps or just climb up a start fueling?
Thanks, Gunther
Ethanol free premium at the Co-Op $4.05. 100LL (cash) at GEZ $5.69
My 9A (bought flying) has a shroud around the fuel pump and 2 blast tubes feeding it cold air. So far no vapor lock issues. I have decided that in the heat of summer 90+ I'm going to run mostly 100LL just to be on the safe side.
 
plumbing

Hello. I bought my 9A complete, and is a q/build model. Within this thread (and numerous other areas) there's talk of replumbing additional lines to make sure there is propper, cool fuel flowing. Would my plane already have this, as was built by the plans? If not, how's about a show of hands, with
9A, that are currently running mowgas just as the aircraft is, without rebuilding the plumbing. Thank you. DM
 
leaning procedure

Figure as this is my thread and not that old, this would be appropriate to stick this question here. Is leaning with mogas advised? I run one tank with 1/2 1/2 110LL/mogas and one tank m/g. At cruise I have been pulling back mixture till a sputter, then screw in a couple of turns. (as I've done in rentals with 100LL. I see not much cht increase, only some on the egt.
Don't want to be causing unseen damage. I understand the vapor lock issues of the summer heat on the ramp with m/g. Thx for any input. DM
 
I can't tell you what to do but I lean just as though I was burning avgas
and that is "Green of Peak" most of the time.
After looking at engine monitor data for dozens of flights I cannot detect any difference in the way the numbers look from avgas to mogas.
As you noticed, perhaps a tiny increase in EGTs.
For clarity I run pure mogas 91E10 on one tank and avgas in the other.
After testing for over a year in different hot and cold environments, I am confident I wouldn't ever need avgas anymore.
 
I have an O320 150 HP RV9A and run mid grade ethanol free gas mixed with some 100LL. I have a 50 gallon tank in my pickup and put 10 gallons 100 LL and 40 gallons 91 octane gas. I did the same with my old Cessna 172 and never had a problem of any kind. Much less problems with plugs leading up.
 
N427EF said:
I can't tell you what to do but I lean just as though I was burning avgas
and that is "Green of Peak" most of the time.
After looking at engine monitor data for dozens of flights I cannot detect any difference in the way the numbers look from avgas to mogas.
As you noticed, perhaps a tiny increase in EGTs.
For clarity I run pure mogas 91E10 on one tank and avgas in the other.
After testing for over a year in different hot and cold environments, I am confident I wouldn't ever need avgas anymore.
Click to expand...
Was/is yours a 150 or 160 hp? Mine is 160 and data plate states 91/96 oct.
I have cht anaolog on all 4. I only noticed egt inc/dec. CHT's all stayed relatively low...320 ish. Could you go into explaining green of peak? Will I be able to work this, with my analog gages? Thx for listening. DM
 
Green of peak?

As in Lean of Peak, meaning less gas and less polluting than rich of peak. (EGT)
While you may not care about the polluting aspect, running on the lean side will also leave more green in your pocket.
If you didn't care about either of the two, running Green of Peak on mogas will definitely leave your spark plugs and other parts of the engine cleaner than polluting it with lead deposits.
Mine is a 8:1 compression IO 540, and yours is probably the same in a 160 HP version.
You want to pay attention to your Cylinder head temps but it sounds like your keeping them in a comfortable range.
CHT's all stayed relatively low...320 ish.
Click to expand...
Will I be able to work this, with my analog gages?
Click to expand...
I don't see why not especially when you are running fairly low CHTs.
There is quite a lot of info on leaning techniques and one current thread right here http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=93087&highlight=Proper+leaning
 
N427EF said:
As in Lean of Peak, meaning less gas and less polluting than rich of peak. (EGT)
While you may not care about the polluting aspect, running on the lean side will also leave more green in your pocket.
If you didn't care about either of the two, running Green of Peak on mogas will definitely leave your spark plugs and other parts of the engine cleaner than polluting it with lead deposits.
Mine is a 8:1 compression IO 540, and yours is probably the same in a 160 HP version.
You want to pay attention to your Cylinder head temps but it sounds like your keeping them in a comfortable range.


I don't see why not especially when you are running fairly low CHTs.
There is quite a lot of info on leaning techniques and one current thread right here http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=93087&highlight=Proper+leaning
Click to expand...
Thanks, i'll tinker around with it and do some more reading. DM
 
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