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Primer Solenoid Valve Flow Direction?

jsharkey

jsharkey

Well Known Member
The Parker B2DX62 solenoid valve used for the Van's primer system has two ports stamped 1 and 2 respectively. I assume that one is the inlet and the other is the outlet. Can anyone confirm which is which?
Thanks in advance.
Jim Sharkey
RV6 O360-A1A FP Tip-up

The A/C Spruce catalogue has the same part and says Port #1 OUT and Port #2 IN - can anyone confirm?
 
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@^^&*#^$^$

2 is in and 1 is out.

If you hook it up backwards your boost pump will blow right thru it and flood and kill the engine.

There is nothing that comes with the solenoid that tells you this. You are correct the only place where it says anything about it is the Spruce catalog.

I found this out on my first test flight when I turned the boost pump on prior to landing. The engine promptly flooded and that was my first forced landing in my new plane. Luckily I was over the top of the airport.

2 IS IN 1 IS out.
 
N395V said:
@^^&*#^$^$

2 is in and 1 is out.

If you hook it up backwards your boost pump will blow right thru it and flood and kill the engine.

There is nothing that comes with the solenoid that tells you this. You are correct the only place where it says anything about it is the Spruce catalog.

I found this out on my first test flight when I turned the boost pump on prior to landing. The engine promptly flooded and that was my first forced landing in my new plane. Luckily I was over the top of the airport.

2 IS IN 1 IS out.
Click to expand...


THANK YOU!!!!!!
 
primer solenoid

Thanks guys... I rechecked mine this evening, and found I had accidently plumbed mine right!!

Regards...Chris
 
Johnny come lately...

Hey guys,
I've just installed my primer line and I have the B2DX62 Solenoid. I have a 1-foot piece of flexible line (material braided with no firesleeve) that will go from the gascolator to the solenoid.

What I need to know is, what kind of hose or tubing do you use from the solenoid to the brass T-fitting? I'm guessing that because the brass fitting is NPT that you don't need AN fittings. From the T-fitting to the 3 cylinders are regular NPT brass fittings.

So, what kind of hose or line could I use? Does it need to be fire-sleeved? Should I put firesleeve on the 1-foot section of braided line to the solenoid?

Any pictures of how you fellas set it up would be great, too! Thanks in advance.
 
I used copper tube that came with the Van's primer kit. It only feeds the front two cylinders and runs over the top.
Jim Sharkey
primer2nv4.jpg

primer4un9.jpg
 
Ahh! Thanks Jim. Just curious though, if there's a way to do it with flexible lines. My guess is that it would get expensive compared to buying copper tubing.
 
N395V said:
@^^&*#^$^$

2 is in and 1 is out.

If you hook it up backwards your boost pump will blow right thru it and flood and kill the engine.

There is nothing that comes with the solenoid that tells you this. You are correct the only place where it says anything about it is the Spruce catalog.

I found this out on my first test flight when I turned the boost pump on prior to landing. The engine promptly flooded and that was my first forced landing in my new plane. Luckily I was over the top of the airport.

2 IS IN 1 IS out.
Click to expand...

Help me out here... How does the boost pump work with the primer pump? These are two separate functions items. Are you stating the boost pump pressure somehow makes the primer solenoid bypass?
 
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LifeofReiley said:
Help me out here... How does the boost pump work with the primer pump? These are two separate functions items. Are you stating the boost pump pressure somehow makes the primer solenoid bypass?
Click to expand...

The primer is a solenoid, not a pump. When it's activated, it opens and allows fuel to flow through the primer lines. You have to have the electric pump on first, then hit the solenoid switch for a second or two (I don't know for how long, because I haven't used mine yet).

New problem, though...the primer lines that I installed were the silver (aluminum?) lines that came with my ECI engine kit. They do NOT use AN fittings, but rather NPT pipe threaded ends. So, I was about to buy some copper tubing to copy Jim's setup but I don't know how to connect copper tubing to an NPT fitting. You don't flare it like an AN fitting, do you?

I'm going to have one end (the solenoid end) using an AN fitting, then I'm going to have the other end connect to my NPT T-fitting. Anyone care to explain how to make the NPT fitting work? :confused:
 
lostpilot28 said:
The primer is a solenoid, not a pump. When it's activated, it opens and allows fuel to flow through the primer lines. You have to have the electric pump on first, then hit the solenoid switch for a second or two (I don't know for how long, because I haven't used mine yet).

New problem, though...the primer lines that I installed were the silver (aluminum?) lines that came with my ECI engine kit. They do NOT use AN fittings, but rather NPT pipe threaded ends. So, I was about to buy some copper tubing to copy Jim's setup but I don't know how to connect copper tubing to an NPT fitting. You don't flare it like an AN fitting, do you?

I'm going to have one end (the solenoid end) using an AN fitting, then I'm going to have the other end connect to my NPT T-fitting. Anyone care to explain how to make the NPT fitting work? :confused:
Click to expand...

I typed pump... really mean't solenoid valve. I would think it would cut off in either direction unless it has some bypass feature.

I'm using aluminum tube, here's the part list.

2- AN816-2 Steel Nipple
3- AN816-2D
8- AN818-2D
8- AN819-2D
1- AN824-2D
6- MS21919-WDG2 Clamp
10 Ft 03-40200-3003-0 1/8 X .025 Alum Tube

Hope this helps.
 
You get NPT fittings with a cone on one end to take an AN style flared tube and nut fitting.
Jim Sharkey
 
I'm beginning to hate priming systems... :p

Sooo, since I'm going with 1/8" copper line, and the solenoid takes an -4D AN fitting, I need a reducer.

One side of my solenoid already has an AN fitting that has the pipe-threaded side in the solenoid and it reduces down to what I think is a -2D AN fitting. I'm not going to use the flexible line that I have between the gascolator and the solenoid, so I need to get 2 more of these reducers (I already have the sleeves and nuts for 1/8" copper line I'm going to buy from ACS).

Aircraft Spruce isn't too clear on what fitting has a -4 NPT side and a -2D AN fitting. Sorry to keep asking for help here, but I think I'm really close to having everything I need. :eek:
 
Be Careful

Warning!!!!! Any failure on the pressure side of the primer solonoid valve will cause engine failure due to air being sucked by the engine driven fuel pump instead of fuel. Pay special attention to routing and flares. This is a "Criticality 1" failure point.
 
lostpilot28 said:
I'm beginning to hate priming systems... :p

Sooo, since I'm going with 1/8" copper line, and the solenoid takes an -4D AN fitting, I need a reducer.

One side of my solenoid already has an AN fitting that has the pipe-threaded side in the solenoid and it reduces down to what I think is a -2D AN fitting. I'm not going to use the flexible line that I have between the gascolator and the solenoid, so I need to get 2 more of these reducers (I already have the sleeves and nuts for 1/8" copper line I'm going to buy from ACS).

Aircraft Spruce isn't too clear on what fitting has a -4 NPT side and a -2D AN fitting. Sorry to keep asking for help here, but I think I'm really close to having everything I need. :eek:
Click to expand...

I would stay away from the copper IMHO... hot/cold it will get brittle pretty quick. Aluminum... no problem. :D
 
I don't know.....copper has been used forever on primers.. It can be annealed after bending to relieve stress if you perceive that as a problem. I would be careful about using materials that the mfg's are not using.
 
I'm using stainless steel lines throughout from the primer solenoid. Standard -4 aluminum from the gascolator to the solenoid, wraped in firesleeve. The SS isn't going to just fracture out of nowhere. Mattituck shipped my O-320 with SS lines all plumbed to three cylinders with a T manifold at the back of the engine. All that was required was a very expensive ($80?) SS line from there to the solenoid with the appropriate fitting from ACS that Mahlon described. No big deal.
 
LifeofReiley said:
I would stay away from the copper IMHO... hot/cold it will get brittle pretty quick. Aluminum... no problem. :D
Click to expand...

One thing for certain...

We've been using copper tubing in refrigeration equipment for a long, long time! Get's good and hot, straight off the compressor, and mighty cold at the coil.

L.Adamson -- Van's 3-port setup with copper
 
L.Adamson said:
One thing for certain...

We've been using copper tubing in refrigeration equipment for a long, long time! Get's good and hot, straight off the compressor, and mighty cold at the coil.

L.Adamson -- Van's 3-port setup with copper
Click to expand...

True enough! I figure Van is running all the other fuel through aluminum... keep it all the same. We've had to re-soldier my friends copper twice now in less than 300 hrs, but I can't really tell you why it's cracking. We have small tension loops and all. The crack in the copper tube is at the end of the tubing at the fitting going into the cylinder. Go figure... :)
 
Thanks for the help guys...but, I didn't get an answer to my question about the AN fitting that reduces from a -4 to a -2. Which one do I buy that has the -4 on the pipe-threaded side and the -2 on the AN side? :confused:
 
LifeofReiley said:
True enough! I figure Van is running all the other fuel through aluminum... keep it all the same. We've had to re-soldier my friends copper twice now in less than 300 hrs, but I can't really tell you why it's cracking. We have small tension loops and all. The crack in the copper tube is at the end of the tubing at the fitting going into the cylinder. Go figure... :)
Click to expand...

Might be over flaring the end of the tube and over thinning and stressing root of the flare?

I flew a PA12 with copper primer lines that were always cracking but the system was poorly supported and flexed lots. The mechanic seemed happy to keep fixing them without addressing the lack of support!!

Jim Sharkey
 
Help me out here... How does the boost pump work with the primer pump? These are two separate functions items. Are you stating the boost pump pressure somehow makes the primer solenoid bypass?
__________________
Click to expand...

Darrel,

The primer solenoid has a piston perpendicular to fuel flow. On the side marked "2" you can look inside and see 2 orifices. On the side marked 1 you will see only 1 orifice.

When you pressurize with the boost pump the upper orifice allows fuel pressure to transmit through the upper orifice and hold the piston down with equal force to that trying to push it up. This prevents the small return spring from being overpowered by pump pressure. If you hook it up backwards and power up the pump the pressure can overcome the return spring and push the solenoid open.
 
N395V said:
Darrel,

The primer solenoid has a piston perpendicular to fuel flow. On the side marked "2" you can look inside and see 2 orifices. On the side marked 1 you will see only 1 orifice.

When you pressurize with the boost pump the upper orifice allows fuel pressure to transmit through the upper orifice and hold the piston down with equal force to that trying to push it up. This prevents the small return spring from being overpowered by pump pressure. If you hook it up backwards and power up the pump the pressure can overcome the return spring and push the solenoid open.
Click to expand...

Ahh... I see. I'm using the ASCO 8225 Primer Solenoid, I pulled the spec sheet yesterday and it looks like flow is in on Port 1 and out on Port 2.

http://www.indautomation.com/pdf/asco/8225.pdf
 
So what exactly is needed for fittings and hose to replace the line between the gascolator and solenoid, I am currently using copper and I am not thrilled that it is the only line on the fwf that has pressure all the time and isn't firesleeved. The distance is only about 4" but I would love to use a braided hose in place of the copper. If any one can list the sizes and hose size I would really appreciate it.
 
rvator9a said:
So what exactly is needed for fittings and hose to replace the line between the gascolator and solenoid, I am currently using copper and I am not thrilled that it is the only line on the fwf that has pressure all the time and isn't firesleeved. The distance is only about 4" but I would love to use a braided hose in place of the copper. If any one can list the sizes and hose size I would really appreciate it.
Click to expand...

I think it will only have pressure all the time if you leave your electric boost pump on. Otherwise, it would have a negative pressure (wouldn't it?). I'm going to use copper from the gascolator to the solenoid and from the solenoid to the T-fitting.

I did some digging and found the following 2 links regarding primer lines:

link 1

link 2

Unfortunately, I have to solder the ball fitting onto the end of the copper...may just take it somewhere and have someone else do it. I can solder wires, but not plumming. Don't want leaks, especially where fuel is concerned!
 
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You should not have to solder the balls on the copper pipe. When you tighten the fitting they will lock into the tubing. Unless you are using a different kind then I am use to.
 
Norman CYYJ said:
You should not have to solder the balls on the copper pipe. When you tighten the fitting they will lock into the tubing. Unless you are using a different kind then I am use to.
Click to expand...

Hi Norman,
I hope you're right, but I was going off of everything else that I've read. The 2 links that I provided indicate that they had to solder the ball onto the copper tube. This is new territory for me, so any help is appreciated.
 
lostpilot28 said:
Hi Norman,
I hope you're right, but I was going off of everything else that I've read. The 2 links that I provided indicate that they had to solder the ball onto the copper tube. This is new territory for me, so any help is appreciated.
Click to expand...

If you'll log onto Spruce and get the items I posted you will not have to soldier anything. You do not need the ball type fittings at all. We concluded last night, this is where the cracks in the copper tubing originated... at the soldier joint.
 
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The connectors that I use on the 1/8 cooper tubing are compression type. The little ball on the end is called a ferrule. When the fitting is tightened the ferrule compresses into the copper tube. Never to be removed again. You can get them at the local auto supply store. The ball type that needs soldering usually are silver soldered on if I remember correctly and usually put on steel lines.
 
Norman CYYJ said:
The connectors that I use on the 1/8 cooper tubing are compression type. The little ball on the end is called a ferrule. When the fitting is tightened the ferrule compresses into the copper tube. Never to be removed again. You can get them at the local auto supply store. The ball type that needs soldering usually are silver soldered on if I remember correctly and usually put on steel lines.
Click to expand...
Speaking of the ASCO solenoid valves, I just purchased an 8225 from George Orndorff for $15. Sure beat the $80 Spruce was charging for their valve. George said he purchases them in large quantity and had some at this price, if anyone is in need of a solenoid.
 
Correct Fittings?

By the time you get the plane finished you should be proficient in selecting fittings from the Aircraft Spruce (ACS) catalog to couple AN flare elements to tapered NPT thread elements. Once you do it a few times and think about it the puzzle gets to be fairly simple - and the cost of learning isn't very great. The only place that you can get into trouble is where a manufacturer (like the engine driven fuel pump as I recall) incorporates a non-standard threaded interface that you can't buy out of the ACS catalog. I used Aluminum tubing to the last "T" before the primer ports then copper tubing to the ports. My interface with the port uses the primer nipples I bought out of the ACS catalog soldered to the end of the copper tubing with the small butane torch bought from the ACS catalog. I had no experience with this type of soldering either using silver solder and a torch but it was very simple. I also use a single loop mechanical strain relief in every hard line (tube) running from the aircraft to the engine. The butane that comes with the soldering torch is much more than enough for soldering on the primer nipples. I was worried that the butane supplied would be inadequate and I was able to find a source in the movie industry in Burbank. I bought 4 extra butane containers and I still have them.

So all RVs are not alike under the skin are they?

Bob Axsom
 
Sonny- what'd you decide?

hey Sonny,

I'm in the same quandry as you on the solenoid to primer tee issue. Did you figure it out? I'm using a SS flex hose also- none of the copper stuff. Size is -4. Only way I can see is to adapt the tee to AN-4, same as I did my sending units for pressures (oil, fuel, manifold). Use an AN910-1 coupling with an AN816-4 nipple (for the 1/8" line you would use an AN816-2). I hate to use the extra fittings, but like the flexible hose from the firewall to the tee instead of copper tubing. Probably along the same lines you're thinking. Please let me know what you come up with to compare.

Also, I saw your earlier posts about making your own hoses. I'm getting a quote from PHT to assemble mine. Did you save anything over just getting them made up? Costs seem to be about the same for parts as a completed assembly.
 
trib said:
hey Sonny,

I'm in the same quandry as you on the solenoid to primer tee issue. Did you figure it out? I'm using a SS flex hose also- none of the copper stuff. Size is -4. Only way I can see is to adapt the tee to AN-4, same as I did my sending units for pressures (oil, fuel, manifold). Use an AN910-1 coupling with an AN816-4 nipple (for the 1/8" line you would use an AN816-2). I hate to use the extra fittings, but like the flexible hose from the firewall to the tee instead of copper tubing. Probably along the same lines you're thinking. Please let me know what you come up with to compare.

Also, I saw your earlier posts about making your own hoses. I'm getting a quote from PHT to assemble mine. Did you save anything over just getting them made up? Costs seem to be about the same for parts as a completed assembly.
Click to expand...

Yep, I figured it out...I finished it a week ago. I ended up buying 1/8" copper tubing from ACS, the ball-end and the fitting that goes over it. I also had to buy 2 "reducer" fittings that went from 1/8" NPT down to a -2D AN fitting. I learned that 1/8" NPT fittings don't measure 1/8". :rolleyes:

I have a butane micro-torch that I used to solder the ball fitting onto the copper line. I used regular solder (hope that's OK) and then tested it for leaks by blowing in one end while holding the soldered end under water - no bubbles, must be OK...right?

So, my setup looks like this: From the gascolator I have a 3 inch long piece of copper tube going to the solenoid (connected with 1/8" NPT to -2D AN adapters). The other side of the solenoid (same reducer fitting) has copper line going out to the small NPT T-fitting (I have 3 loops of copper to absorb the vibration...the loops are small-ish...around 3 inches in diameter). The T-fitting uses aluminum line to the cylinders.

Regarding the ball fitting...someone commented that it didn't need to be soldered. That wasn't the case for the fitting I got...they definitely did need to be soldered.
 
I want to thank all you guys for educating me about the true function of the primer SOLENOID, not primer PUMP. I was under the assumption that the little Parker guy was a pump, so was quite startled when I bench tested it and all it did was go THUNK. I thought it was broken. Now I understand that it routes fuel pressurized by the boost pump from the gascolator to the cylinders.

Jim Bower
RV-6A N143DJ
Finishing up
St. Louis, MO
 
LOL...hey Jim, don't feel bad - I did the same thing. It's funny how much you learn after you decide to go a certain route...seems counter-intuitive. :rolleyes:
 
I also had difficulty identifying the IN and OUT ports of the solenoid valve. After spending some time researching the valve, I created a drawing of the valve using the draw features in ms.word.

I was not able to figure out how to paste or attach the drawing on the Forums, but if anyone would like me to send it via email, let me know and I pass it on... Noel Fallwell/Raleigh/IBM@IBMUS
 
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