VansAirForceForums  
Home > VansAirForceForums

- POSTING RULES
- Donate yearly (please).
- Advertise in here!

- Today's Posts | Insert Pics


Go Back   VAF Forums > Model Specific > RV-10
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 01-14-2019, 03:35 PM
rocketbob's Avatar
rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 8I3
Posts: 3,154
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
Personal conversations with engineers and regional reps from Lycoming.
Based on what I have been told, I do not use Aeroshell multi weight in our fleet of airplanes.
I agree. I am not a fan of Aeroshell. I don't know of any other oils, aircraft or otherwise, that will varnish an engine like Aeroshell does.
__________________
Bob Japundza CFI A&PIA
N55BC RV-6 borrowed, flying
N678X F1 Rocket, under const.
N244BJ RV-6 "victim of SNF tornado" 1200+ hrs, rebuilding
N8155F C150 flying
N7925P PA-24-250 Comanche, restoring
Not a thing I own is stock.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-14-2019, 03:44 PM
rv8ch rv8ch is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: LSGG
Posts: 2,429
Default break-in process

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketbob View Post
...
Contrary to popular belief cylinders break in seconds and minutes, not hours of "running hard".

Overhaul an engine and put your ear on a cylinder while pulling the prop thru, then run it once. Big difference how it sounds.

Keep initial runs short and under 300 CHT. Let it cool completely before a subsequent run. I've never had an engine use oil after an overhaul doing breakins this way.
Can you give more details about your break-in process? If I understand you correctly, it sounds like it could easily be done on the ground.
__________________
Mickey Coggins
http://rv8.ch
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-14-2019, 06:09 PM
sglynn's Avatar
sglynn sglynn is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Anacortes, WA
Posts: 695
Default re-use oil

Is it okay to catch and reuse the oil after the 5 minute ground test? I see Lycoming suggest full power ground test for 10 seconds. Then check the screen or filter. Pulling screen or filter will drain out most of the oil. Can I catch and re-use the oil or throw it away? Seems ashame to throw away 8 quarts of oil after a 5 minute ground test.

I broke in my O540 a couple years ago but can't remember if we did much ground test. I don't think so. But that was an engine replacement on a production plane. I've completed 2 ground idle test on my 7A and am getting ready for first flight. I'll do one more ground test to full power for 10 seconds per Lycoming. Then check everything including pulling screen to look for metal.
__________________
Steve Lynn
RV-7A
100% Complete
Airworthiness Certification Complete
First Flight in March 2019
Anacortes, WA
www.mykitlog.com/sglynn
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-14-2019, 08:13 PM
rocketbob's Avatar
rocketbob rocketbob is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: 8I3
Posts: 3,154
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rv8ch View Post
Can you give more details about your break-in process? If I understand you correctly, it sounds like it could easily be done on the ground.
What I posted is all it is. Make a couple runs, don't exceed 300 CHT. Simple.
__________________
Bob Japundza CFI A&PIA
N55BC RV-6 borrowed, flying
N678X F1 Rocket, under const.
N244BJ RV-6 "victim of SNF tornado" 1200+ hrs, rebuilding
N8155F C150 flying
N7925P PA-24-250 Comanche, restoring
Not a thing I own is stock.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-15-2019, 02:37 PM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,877
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketbob View Post
I agree. I am not a fan of Aeroshell. I don't know of any other oils, aircraft or otherwise, that will varnish an engine like Aeroshell does.
I was NOT a believer in this opinion... until I had my first engine (a C85) overhauled. It was all gold-coloured on the inside. If any of you have seen the aluminum foil backing on insulation blankets in airliners from the era when cigarette smoking was allowed, THAT's what my engine looked like. Gold varnish everywhere.

Then the owner of the shop showed me a very similar engine they had torn apart immediately before mine. Clean, shiny metal inside, looked almost like brand new. That engine was an O-200 from a C150 used as a trainer - it had gone well beyond TBO. The oil used was Phillips XC 20-W-50.

I simply couldn't believe the difference between an engine that ran AeroShell and an engine that ran Phillips. I now use Phillips exclusively.

As for break-in procedure, it's really simple, as Bob said. Limit ground runs to 300 degrees CHT, no matter what. Don't start the next ground run until you can comfortably hold your hand on the cylinder for 20 seconds or more. This will be more than sufficient to protect the cylinders from glazing. In the case of our O-360-A1F6, I ended up doing 10 ground runs, including six attempts to make full power. It turned out I needed to adjust both the prop low pitch stops and the governor setting in order to make the full 2700 RPM.

The key is limiting duration of ground runs at ANY power setting and using that 300 degrees as an ABSOLUTE CHT limit for ground ops. If, for your first flight, ATC delays your takeoff and you see CHT's rising about 300, if you're not sitting on the button of the runway and cleared for takeoff, shut the engine down and let it cool.

I posted earlier in this thread about our in-flight break-in procedure (fly it like you stole it and like somebody else is payin' for the gas!). Now, with 90 hours on the tach, oil consumption is about one quart per 20-24 tach hours.

Adhering to these very simple rules... just... works!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-15-2019, 03:33 PM
Mark33 Mark33 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Baton Rouge, La.
Posts: 473
Default

This is great information. So I understand adhering to the max 300* CHT rule but can you please describe in further details as to what power settings you'd want to achieve this. Would you want to vary the throttle (RPM's)?, full power? half throttle? Does mixture settings make a difference?

Thanks,
Mark
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-15-2019, 03:39 PM
sglynn's Avatar
sglynn sglynn is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Anacortes, WA
Posts: 695
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_JOY View Post
As for break-in procedure, it's really simple, as Bob said. Limit ground runs to 300 degrees CHT, no matter what. Don't start the next ground run until you can comfortably hold your hand on the cylinder for 20 seconds or more. This will be more than sufficient to protect the cylinders from glazing. In the case of our O-360-A1F6, I ended up doing 10 ground runs, including six attempts to make full power. It turned out I needed to adjust both the prop low pitch stops and the governor setting in order to make the full 2700 RPM.
On these ground runs did you install cowls and baffles? Lycoming says do 10 seconds at full power then check for leaks. Are cowls and baffles needed for this kind of ground engine test run?
thanks
__________________
Steve Lynn
RV-7A
100% Complete
Airworthiness Certification Complete
First Flight in March 2019
Anacortes, WA
www.mykitlog.com/sglynn
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-27-2019, 10:34 PM
sglynn's Avatar
sglynn sglynn is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Anacortes, WA
Posts: 695
Default New vs Rebuilt Engine Break-in

Same question, I'm within weeks of first flight and I'm trying to make sure I've done everything necessary for the engine.

Do I need to do a 10 second full power engine test and then oil drain and inspection on a new IO360 from Lycoming? The documents offered on earlier links including Lycoming 1427C are for "field overhauled" engines. But mine is new from Lycoming. So did the engine get tested on the test stand sufficient at Lycoming so that I should do just a couple idle tests and fuel flow test and then go for first flight test which will start engine break-in? And I'll do a few seconds of full power at prior to taking off to ensure engine can do full power. Does this sound right?
__________________
Steve Lynn
RV-7A
100% Complete
Airworthiness Certification Complete
First Flight in March 2019
Anacortes, WA
www.mykitlog.com/sglynn
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-27-2019, 11:03 PM
Canadian_JOY Canadian_JOY is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,877
Default

After reading these last couple of posts I had flashbacks to that same set of questions from years ago. You're sitting on a LOT of dollars worth of engine and the last thing you want to do is harm that brand new engine before you even get a chance to get into the air.

Been there, done that... Understand your position entirely.

When we're in that mindset of "fear of doing harm" it's really, really difficult to believe that engine break-in can be boiled down to a very small set of "Rules and Recommendations". But it can be, and has been, very successfully, for many years!

Firstly, to be clear, a "new" engine from Lycoming has been "run in" for you by Lycoming. The "Run A minutes at B RPM, then C minutes at D RPM" is all done, so put all that behind you.

What you have to do now is to ensure the good work that was started at the Lycoming factory doesn't get undone by you before you get the rings fully seated. That process of seating the rings is "break-in".

So the short answer is that you need to do engine runs necessary to satisfy yourself that all systems are performing as they should. While doing the engine runs you should keep CHT below 300F - that seems like an almost universally-recognized recommendation.

How fast you spin the engine is up to you. Personally, I would not take off in a brand new airplane with a brand new engine unless I knew the engine was making full power. One can do a full-power engine run without exceeding 300F CHT. Manage your time wisely while running the engine. Preheat as necessary to get the oil up to a good temperature so you don't have to run the engine to heat the oil - having to run the engine a long time to heat up the oil will decrease the amount of time available at higher power settings before the CHT rises to 300F.

As for baffling... Consider baffling one of the "systems" you're checking out and breaking in. It should be in place for your engine runs.

Engine cowl? That's aircraft-dependent to some degree. At a personal level I was uncomfortable running at full power with the cowl off, so I ran with the cowl on and accepted that I might have a short running time available. Of course the airplane was parked into the wind and the oil door was opened up following the run to get the engine cooling down as well as possible after shut-down. For prior runs up to 2000RPM the cowls were off and no harm was done.

Run the engine to ensure it will idle, that both ignition systems are functional, that the mixture control and carb heat work, and that a constant-speed prop will cycle. From this list you can see that most systems can be checked out at speeds below 2000RPM. That leaves only a very brief run up to full throttle to ensure you're getting the recommended static RPM and that the engine is happy making that much power. You'll be surprised how the airplane will be bucking and rocking at those high power settings, so give yourself confidence and an extra margin of safety by chocking the airplane well and tying it to something very secure. I used a tractor, parked sideways behind the airplane, and stout ropes from the tractor to the main gear legs, and was still surprised by how much slack was taken up in those ropes at the gear legs were flexed by the prop thrust.

In our case both the prop low pitch limit and the governor needed to be adjusted, so, in all, we ended up doing 10 engine runs before the first flight. Never during these runs did CHT's get to 300F. Never was the engine run a subsequent time unless I could comfortably rest my hand on the cylinder head and hold it there (think "leaning on the engine while talking to a buddy" - if you can't hold your hand there that long, the engine isn't cool enough to run again).

By following these simple methods you'll get a good set of ground runs done, you'll develop confidence that everything is working as it should, and you'll know that when you're ready for your first flight all you need to concentrate on in terms of engine management for break-in will be to "fly it like you stole it", watching CHTs don't climb above recommended limits (I used 425F as my absolute max and never hit that temperature but did hit 410 very briefly).

In our case, following these simple steps yielded oil consumption better than 20 hours per quart and compressions that are terrific.

In short, don't let fear override rational thought. Run your engine with confidence and with the knowledge that it can and will break in well if you follow some very simple guiding principles. It really doesn't have to be complicated, so don't get caught up in over-thinking it. Enjoy the feeling of your engine doing its thing, and doing it well!

Last edited by Canadian_JOY : 01-27-2019 at 11:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-28-2019, 02:53 AM
rv8ch rv8ch is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: LSGG
Posts: 2,429
Default leaf blowers

Just curious, if the major issue with ground ops on a new engine is cooling, couldn't we hook up some kind of ducted leaf blower cooling system that would move enough air over the engine to eliminate this problem? Those things seem to move a lot of air, and are really cheap.
__________________
Mickey Coggins
http://rv8.ch
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:53 AM.


The VAFForums come to you courtesy Delta Romeo, LLC. By viewing and participating in them you agree to build your plane using standardized methods and practices and to fly it safely and in accordance with the laws governing the country you are located in.