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  #31  
Old 09-20-2019, 09:35 PM
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MCA MCA is offline
 
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Default Another input

My 2 cents: dump the round dials and the Hobbs meter. Cut out the panel for the 650 and the G5 and put in blanking plates for now. Wire up the harness for the 650 and G5 now.

You'll thank your past self when you want to make it IFR in the future.
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  #32  
Old 09-21-2019, 08:16 AM
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Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker View Post
This design leaves open the possibility of preserving the canopy release handle, if I choose to run it out to the panel.
Except you'll have the two sides of the handle covering part of the two round gauges... The stock configuration is for the handle to be horizontal. Of course, you could cut/re-weld the shaft and mount the handle vertically but that seems like a lot of work. Just lower them below the handle hole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner
1. Mag/start switches. Very clever design, but I think in practice it will be awkward holding two switches up with one hand. At best, youíll push harder than needed, possibly shortening the lifetime of the switches. Iíd re-wire them, keeping the safety features, thru a regular push to start switch.
I have three toggles in mine, Off-On for each mag, and Off-(on) for start, all side-by-side. The Start toggle has a flip cover so I can't bump it in flight.
Holding the single toggle up with one finger is easy, holding two up would just need another finger, or you could lift both with the side of one finger.

I thought about using an Off-On-(On) setup on the impulse mag but decided I wanted both mag switches to be in the same position when "on," and I didn't want to accidentally hit the starter if I checked mags in flight. Using Off-On-(On) for both (presumably wired so bumping just one in flight won't trigger the starter) is a clever solution.

I also thought about clever wiring arrangements that would lock out the non-impulse mag when starting, but decided i'd rather have direct control over everything.
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  #33  
Old 09-21-2019, 09:30 PM
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Draker Draker is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wirejock View Post
Just curious. Have you tried installing the extra tall panel? I couldn't find an easy way to slide it in place and finally gave up and went back to the standard. I want to be able to pull the panel as a unit to work back there.
I saw your log actually. It was kind of puzzling because the full size/width panel looks like it should fit! Was the canopy deck the way? Even given the trouble you pointed out, I was going to still give the full-width single piece panel a try.
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  #34  
Old 09-22-2019, 07:13 AM
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N941WR N941WR is offline
 
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Rather then use a longer panel, why not install a recessed switch/breaker panel at the bottom. It protects the switches and is easy to replace, if you make changes in the coming years.
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  #35  
Old 09-25-2019, 12:06 AM
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Draker Draker is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Planecrazy232 View Post
They are both very capable IFR panels, but mine (picture below) puts all the screens at the pilot where they do the most good. No reaching across the passenger while you are bouncing around trying to hit the correct place on the screen. Granted one of mine is a 470, but all that display is right where you need it. Unless you do a lot of dual pilot flying, put the money in front of you.
Thanks for this suggestion. I also worry a great deal about how useful that big (and expensive) display will be all the way over in front of the passenger. I had an older layout that's closer to yours:



This is the question that really keeps me up at night. I think I might be much happier with two displays right in front of me rather than going for the [beautiful] symmetrical layout. I think I'm going to pick this design back up and take it more seriously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walt View Post
Best of both worlds
Good from both seats.
That one's outrageous! And looks amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maus92 View Post
2 ADAHRS and eliminate the steam gauges, and the G5. Mount the GMU-25s to a rigid structural member vs. the back of the GDU.
Isn't the reason they provide mounting holes on the back of the GDUs to attach the GMU devices? I though the panel would be more than rigid enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer View Post
* For now, put the autopilot and comm at the top where theyíre more accessible. Use long service loops so that you can relocate them;
You and a couple other people recommended this. I struggle with this idea though because of interference with the F-697 channel and F-643 rib behind the sub-panel. The rib looks to be structural, so I don't want to touch it, and the channel would be a pain to chop up. Locating it far down eliminates this problem. Garmin needs to make their radios (and GTN) 1-2" shorter! I'm not too worried about having it lower, since lots of my interaction with the radios will be through the G3X.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer View Post
* The G5 does not need pitot/static inputs, although that gives you an ADHRS backup. It also gives you a backup if the left screen poops out;
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
My thoughts - worth what you paid for them
2. G5. For vfr do what you want. For ifr, Iím still of the minority opinion that you want your last-ditch backup as independent of the main panel, including software, as possible. Iíd favor a GRT mini, second choice a Dynon.
I'm less and less convinced the G5 buys me much after this thread. Probably will eliminate. That said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vansrv7arob View Post
Drop g5 and second panel, add them back in when you go IFR
I know little about IFR flight. Help me to understand what does the G5 (or any other standby display) provide that's necessary for IFR?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer View Post
* G3X already gives you alerts, so you donít need discrete warning lights, nor a Hobbs meter;
Quote:
Originally Posted by N941WR View Post
No need. Your EFIS will give you an audio indicator that something is amiss and if Garmin is like the Dynon, it will highlight the problem. With the Skyview, the oil pressure will go flashing red and you will hear "Oil Pressure, Oil Pressure". I can't recall if says "Low Oil Pressure" or just "Oil Pressure". Either way, it will get your attention.
I'm glad people are mentioning the lights (and others mentioning the steam gauges). It means I was on the right rack being on the fence about them. I guess, being in the computer industry myself, I am reaching for every opportunity to have a backup without a computer between me and the thing being measured. I used to write software for embedded navigation displays and have seen some horrible stuff. I want backup instruments!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer View Post
* If you plan on flying actual IFR, put strobe and pitot heat next to each other. One goes on, the other off going in and out of clouds;
This is easy enough. Makes sense and good future proofing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer View Post
* Where are autopilot disconnect and TO/GA?
AP enable is to the right of the mag switches. I figure I'll probably switch that one on right after the engine starts. It is a DPST switch to control both servos with one switch. TO/GA is to the right of the mixture control, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Rat View Post
If it were me, I'd want the TOGA button next to the throttle.
Based on this suggestion, I'm going to move it to the left of the throttle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Desert Rat View Post
Is nobody using an avionics master anymore?
This seems to be one of those never-ending debates. I find Bob Nuckolls's argument persuasive, although I'm likely going to set aside space for such a switch even if I don't drill a hole for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer View Post
* You have the option of wiring the right screen as a second PFD, for when you fly with a second pilot. The real difference is when that screen is not split, does the attitude display (PFD) fill the screen or the MFD? I think you'll find that full screen MFD on the right is far enough away that the full screen adds little value over a half screen display.
I have not given enough thought to what exactly I plan to display on each screen during the various stages of flight. To be honest, I've never flown with a glass panel before so I'm guessing a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
1. Mag/start switches. Very clever design, but I think in practice it will be awkward holding two switches up with one hand. At best, youíll push harder than needed, possibly shortening the lifetime of the switches. Iíd re-wire them, keeping the safety features, thru a regular push to start switch.
Thanks! I originally had a push to start switch but realized I could save panel space and keep the safety feature by just going with two momentary switches. Since they're right next to each other I didn't think it would be that awkward to hold them both up, but I'll think about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
3. Agree with others, thereís no need for a Hobbs meter.
I figured they're so cheap and if I'm going to have a pressure switch for the panel light anyway, I basically get the hobbs enable circuit for free. Maybe I'll ditch it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
6. My personal preference is flaps right, fuel pump left, of the engine controls, just because flaps right is standard.
Yes, others mentioned this too. I'll re-locate the flaps control to the right. I think fuel pump goes on right after startup(?) so that's why I have it farther left.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
8. Right seat PTT seems awkward for a right seat pilot with right hand on stick. If intended just for passenger/safety pilot, ok.
Yea there will be a PTT on the right stick. The panel button is only there in case the right stick is removed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTurner View Post
9. You will find it a challenge to be avoiding a tangle of wires, headsets, music sources, etc., on the seats, when entering/exiting. I would suggest moving headset jacks, music inputs, USB charger, to the back. Maybe the horizontal brace.
Thanks, I am definitely going to explore locating at least the headset wiring aft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
Personal preference would be to ditch the G5 and the steam gauges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmartingt View Post
If you have dual EFIS screens, (presumably) dual ADAHRS, and a backup mini-EFIS... why the steam gauges?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RV12JT View Post
I agree, dump th steam, the G5 will suffice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MCA View Post
My 2 cents: dump the round dials and the Hobbs meter.
No love for non-computerized backup gauges here I see

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowflake View Post
Except you'll have the two sides of the handle covering part of the two round gauges... The stock configuration is for the handle to be horizontal. Of course, you could cut/re-weld the shaft and mount the handle vertically but that seems like a lot of work. Just lower them below the handle hole.
Auugh, this is definitely a gotcha I overlooked. I might do as others have done and just not run the handle out to the panel. Leave it back at the sub panel and just use it as a way to more easily release the canopy during building. Nobody's ever tried this thing in flight on a -7 have they?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Froehlich View Post
Have you considered how you will do maintenance and further mods to the panel - without major surgery or on your back with your head under the panel?

Here is a post I recently put out on this subject: http://www.vansairforce.com/communit...d.php?t=175159
Wow, this is really next level thinking. I was trying to cut down on the number of connectors since connectors = failure points and (sometimes) signal loss. But I agree, as it stands, my panel is effectively permanent and not-removable. I will have to reflect on this and see if I'm willing to make the complexity trade-offs needed to make the panel more maintainable.
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  #36  
Old 09-25-2019, 12:56 AM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker View Post

I know little about IFR flight. Help me to understand what does the G5 (or any other standby display) provide that's necessary for IFR?
.
Standby EFIS (with its own battery), second nav, aux fuel pump, cabin static source, ... are all useless dead weight - unless the primary fails when youíre deep in the clouds. Then they become worth their weight in gold. Deciding what and how many failure modes you want to survive, and what ones you consider acceptable risks (after all, thereís only one crankshaft), is what makes the choices hard, and with endless debates.
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  #37  
Old 09-25-2019, 03:54 AM
Finley Atherton Finley Atherton is offline
 
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My 2 cents:
Dump the portrait G3X (Post #35) - not needed as a navigation backup if VFR. If IFR the GTN 650 will be the extra (main) GPS navigator.

On the extreme left side of the panel you could put two (or up to four) small instruments and move the large display and center stack as much to the left as possible.

For the small instruments they could be the GRT Mini - X/AP which has EFIS and EMS displays and the Dynon Pocket or G5. Use the GRT as your EMS display instead of the G3X. This leaves the full G3X screen for EFIS and moving map. Only use the GRT EFIS display if the G3X fails (IFR). The Dynon Pocket/G5 would the third AH if the G3X and GRT disagree in IMC.

Other possible small instruments could be a steam gauge ASI and an independent AP such as the round Trio Pro Pilot.

From the left side of my panel I have four small size instruments, 10” Skyview , GTN 650 in the center stack and standard Vans Map Box. My Skyview and GTN look to be about 1 1/2” further to the left than in your latest design (post 35). The GTN is the primary IFR navigator and I would not want it any further to the right. With only two instruments you could move it even further left!

Fin 9A.

Last edited by Finley Atherton : 09-25-2019 at 04:31 AM.
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  #38  
Old 09-25-2019, 04:13 AM
maus92 maus92 is online now
 
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@Draker: Garmin's recommendation is not to mount the ADAHRS to the back of the GDU due to panel vibration. Some people fail the vibration testing / calibration routine because of it. In my RV-8, the single ADAHRS is mounted on a longitudinal member just behind the main spar.
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  #39  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:06 AM
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Snowflake Snowflake is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draker View Post
Auugh, this is definitely a gotcha I overlooked. I might do as others have done and just not run the handle out to the panel. Leave it back at the sub panel and just use it as a way to more easily release the canopy during building. Nobody's ever tried this thing in flight on a -7 have they?
Nor on a -6. One of the previous owners of mine removed it and safety-wired the actuator to hold it locked. The handle didn't come with the plane so I bought one from Vans and installed it. I've had my canopy off twice, and that handle makes it a crapload easier to get it in and out... I did it solo once.

Quote:
But I agree, as it stands, my panel is effectively permanent and not-removable. I will have to reflect on this and see if I'm willing to make the complexity trade-offs needed to make the panel more maintainable.
As someone flying a 20 year old RV, I can say with certainty that being able to easily maintain the space behind the panel is extremely valuable. The tip-up space behind the first panel only gets you so far.
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  #40  
Old 09-29-2019, 01:38 PM
nilberg nilberg is offline
 
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I am more or less at the same stage. I added some more structures to check clearances etc.

You cannot have the GTN-650 too high up as it will interfere with the canopy release mechanism.

I also have two round gauges. One is for the EI Commander and maybe I'll add a PAI-700 compass.

A question for you: I have the Garmin components, but where did you get the CAD files for the switches, ELT panel and the other components.

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Last edited by nilberg : 09-29-2019 at 04:05 PM. Reason: Fixed photo link
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