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Crying in My Beer (Long and Sad Post)

DonFromTX

Well Known Member
It has been 10 months today since I got my airworthiness certificate on the 12 I built. It is still sitting forlornly in the corner of the hangar, anxiously awaiting a pilot to fly her!
I felt my story was enough the same as others, so will share my sad tale. I turn 80 this month, it has been 25 years since I last flew, 5 of those years were building. My physical condition makes me one of those old time private pilots that can now fly on a drivers license, in other words exercise the privileges of a Sport Pilot. As I finished my build, I started looking for an instructor that could bring me up to date and give me a Flight Review. The closest was Jetguy, 600 miles away and a full time professional pilot. Booking some time between his schedule, my schedule, and the weather, I did manage to get in 17 1/2 hours and 47 landings, and those were some valuable learning sessions, but at that time I sort of gave up, it seemed so slow I would never get there. There were no options down here in the lower tip of Texas, so I finally just bought an ELSA for the sole purpose of polishing off my skills in an RV12 and getting a flight review. That is harder than I thought as well, seems the insurance companies want an instructor t has a few hours in a 12! I finally thought I had found an instructor, but after thinking about it, flying with an old guy in an experimental was just too much risk for them to take, my risk was of course no insurance! I still have no flight review!
So what is my point? I wish I had used my building time to do some flying, but there being no Light Sport planes around, that did not happen. THINK about a path to flying your plane while you are building! Most people are located in an area where they can accomplish what I did not.
 
Don, if you can swing it financially, make arrangements to fly to Oregon and connect with the RV-12 program out there.

I do not know all the details but my hangar neighbor was in similar situation, did that, and is flying his RV-12, in fact flew it to OSH.

Someone out there is giving 12 instruction, you've got to go for it having spent so much time building the airplane.
 
There might be, well, other options. Can you get liability-only coverage? That's sometimes easier to get than full coverage. Would the financial loss be catastrophic, if the plane is damaged?

I wouldn't want to fly without liability coverage (to protect my family's interests), but I haven't had hull coverage on any of my planes since I got rid of the last a/c financing note (and an a/c partner) over 20 year ago. I probably have roughly the value of another plane in savings and investments, from the money I saved on hull insurance. I wouldn't *enjoy* the financial loss of the plane, but it wouldn't have any effect on my ability to pay the bills.

If you or your family can't take the financial hit, then obviously, don't do it. But you're already 80. Even if insurance pays off on a 'bent' a/c, will you get it repaired in time to fly again?

Get 'current' (BFR) in a Cessna, or whatever is available in your area. Then you can be PIC, assuming the financial risk. At that point, there should be more instructors that could get you checked out in the -12. (Unless there are just no instructors in your area you trust; that's a different problem.)
 
Don;
Mike Seager, Vernonia OR is a good start. He is highly recommended through Van's. You can find his contact info on Van's website.
Do not give up yet. If you can afford 2 new RV-12's, you can afford to fly with Mike.
 
Rv7charlie makes some good points. I agree that your location -- or rather the lack of resources near it -- seems to be a major part of your trouble. Surely there's somewhere you could go, spend a week or so and get trained and reviewed in an RV-12.

Like here, or here, or here.

Question: After 17-1/2 hours and 47 landings (what were those hours in? RV-12 or something else?) how do YOU feel about your flying ability?
 
There is an outfit in in Glendale AZ that does flight training in a SLSA RV12.
If that is something that might work for you message me and I'll give you the details (they are on Vans site).

I don't have any experience with them so this is informational only.
 
Excellent idea, I had never even thought of them, thanks. Same problem though, none of them probably have ever even flown a 12! I will check.
Try the IPs at Harlingen that are associated with marine Military Academy. They taught my son to fly while he was there and are close being in Harlingen.

Contact them at

[email protected]

TJ
 
I had given up at one point, but not now. To answer several posts (Thanks guys, I really appreciated them all) a Sport Pilot cannot take a flight review in anything other than a Light Sport, and other than mine none are available. The FAA says that for each year away, you need one hour of dual. That does not envision 2 hours every three months or so. That makes for a long visit even to someplace that has good weather and available instructor and plane.. I flew for years with no insurance at all, but will not do that again. Even liability requires a pilot in command, cannot be me until I get a review, and cannot be a CFI that has never set foot in a 12.
You are correct, it is my location that is a BIG part of the problem. I dreamed up a solution and have a CFI that will go along with it, we will see if it can happen!
 
Don, if I understand correctly, you are not a sport pilot; you are a private pilot exercising sport privileges. As such you may do a flight review in a 172, etc. No medical needed since the cfi will have to be PIC (since your Flight Review has expired). May not be ideal, but is a possibility.
 
Concur with everyone here Don . . . don't give up on it.
Unless your heart just isn't into it anymore, you have too much invested, just to let it go. And I'm not talking about money, I talking about your yearning and love of flying, to get back in the saddle.

Once you finally get there, it will be especially rewarding for you and you will not regret it.

Hang in there partner!:)
 
Don, if I understand correctly, you are not a sport pilot; you are a private pilot exercising sport privileges. As such you may do a flight review in a 172, etc. No medical needed since the cfi will have to be PIC (since your Flight Review has expired). May not be ideal, but is a possibility.

^^^^^^^ Yeah, that. That exactly, I was there two years ago. No time in an RV-12, no flight review, no medical. Got the two that mattered knocked out in one cross country trip.
 
Don:

I came back to flying after a 20 year break, in 2015. I got one hour of dual in a 172 then bought an RV-12 SLSA and got 5 hours dual which was all the insurance company required. The instructor did have LSA time in a Rans, but none in the RV-12: the insurance company only required him to get one hour in the -12. At the time I was flying under the sport pilot privileges in terms of medical.

I used Falcon Insurance - maybe you can call them and find a company that has more reasonable requirements. (At the time I stopped flying in 1995 I had PPL, Instrument Rating so not sure if prior ratings played a part in the insurance company requirements).
 
Don,

It can be done. Good luck, I think you will find a way to enjoy the fruits of your labor.

Tim
 
Is that really true? So if someone has been away for 50 years they need 50 hours of dual? They would be better off starting over if that is the case.

No that is NOT true. That's an estimate someone came up with.
There is no flight review time requirement based on being "away from flying".
 
I never said it was a requirement Mel, just that the FAA says that (not just "someone"). In fact if you care to read the FAA publication called "Conducting an Effective Flight Review", you will find my quoted statement below:
"For pilots who have not flown at all for several years, a useful "rule of thumb" is to plan one hour of ground training and one hour of flight training for every year the pilot has been out of the cockpit". Works just fine for an instructor who is wanting to get paid to build some time, after all he is just following the FAA guidelines.
I thought it odd as well, since I soloed in 8 hours, now it takes me 50 hours to gain that same status.

QUOTE=Mel;1208670]No that is NOT true. That's an estimate someone came up with.
There is no flight review time requirement based on being "away from flying".[/QUOTE]
 
I have double checked this with the FAA. Not only am I a Sport Pilot now,
the other requirement they brought up was their requirement "However a pilot may NOT take a flight review in an aircraft for which he or she does not hold a rating or operating privilege", and their statement "For example, a sport pilot who holds airplane privileges could not take the flight review in a Cessna 172 since that airplane is not a light sport airplane and he or she does not hold operating privileges for that airplane." Obviously I could never hold operating privilege for a non-LSA craft.
Don, if I understand correctly, you are not a sport pilot; you are a private pilot exercising sport privileges. As such you may do a flight review in a 172, etc. No medical needed since the cfi will have to be PIC (since your Flight Review has expired). May not be ideal, but is a possibility.
 
Why are you a sport pilot *now*? If you're really a private pilot, did was your last physical expire? If <10 years ago, just do the new alternative 3rd class medical thing. Then take your flight review in, whatever. Private pilots can fly light sport a/c, right?

Oh, and surely you can find a flight instructor who isn't an extortionist.
 
Wish I could have qualified. Last medical was 25 years ago as well.
Why are you a sport pilot *now*? If you're really a private pilot, did was your last physical expire? If <10 years ago, just do the new alternative 3rd class medical thing. Then take your flight review in, whatever. Private pilots can fly light sport a/c, right?

Oh, and surely you can find a flight instructor who isn't an extortionist.
 
Don, LOOK AT YOUR LICENSE! Does it say 'Sport Pilot"? 25 years ago that didn't exist. I'll bet it says 'Private Pilot'. You do not need a medical to get a flight review, since you cannot be PIC (since you lack a Flight Review). If you want to get dual or a flight Review in a 172, all you need is your private pilot license. The cfi will need to act as PIC.
 
When I started back flying (under sport pilot privileges - no current medical) I ordered a new airman certificate (removed SSN from it) which showed the same ratings (Private Pilot, Instrument Rating) with no restrictions on the certificate itself.

Regarding the time needed to get back - I was concerned about how much dual I would need but the first landing I made in that 172 was one of the best I'd ever made. I did do some serious ground self-training on new airspace rules, etc - I actually bought a review course from King School and went through that several times.

My point is that you should be able to exercise sport pilot privileges with a BFR in your logbook with no restrictions other than those placed by your insurance company.
 
I have double checked this with the FAA. Not only am I a Sport Pilot now,
the other requirement they brought up was their requirement "However a pilot may NOT take a flight review in an aircraft for which he or she does not hold a rating or operating privilege", and their statement "For example, a sport pilot who holds airplane privileges could not take the flight review in a Cessna 172 since that airplane is not a light sport airplane and he or she does not hold operating privileges for that airplane." Obviously I could never hold operating privilege for a non-LSA craft.

Don, look yourself up on the FAA registry website. You are a Private Pilot in the records of the FAA. Whoever you talked to at the FAA either is wrong, or you misunderstood them. Go to any flight school that uses older aircraft for instruction, preferably something you flew years ago, and get a flight review. No solo time, just a flight review. If you can pass that then find a CFI who will give you transition training in the stock RV-12 you bought. Since you will already have a current flight review you only have to satisfy yourself and the CFI that you are at a safe level of currency, and satisfy the insurance company.

Then get yourself a bunch of hours in the 12 you bought flying to get very comfortable in the type before putting yourself in the test pilot mode to fly the airplane you built with many departures from the original Vans design.

One step at a time!
 
Wish I could have qualified. Last medical was 25 years ago as well.

Don, LOOK AT YOUR LICENSE! Does it say 'Sport Pilot"? 25 years ago that didn't exist. I'll bet it says 'Private Pilot'. You do not need a medical to get a flight review, since you cannot be PIC (since you lack a Flight Review). If you want to get dual or a flight Review in a 172, all you need is your private pilot license. The cfi will need to act as PIC.

When I started back flying (under sport pilot privileges - no current medical) I ordered a new airman certificate (removed SSN from it) which showed the same ratings (Private Pilot, Instrument Rating) with no restrictions on the certificate itself.

Regarding the time needed to get back - I was concerned about how much dual I would need but the first landing I made in that 172 was one of the best I'd ever made. I did do some serious ground self-training on new airspace rules, etc - I actually bought a review course from King School and went through that several times.

My point is that you should be able to exercise sport pilot privileges with a BFR in your logbook with no restrictions other than those placed by your insurance company.
Don, Listen to these guys! They are telling you like it is. First point is your license. If you had a Private Pilot license 25 years ago, you have a Private Pilot license today. They do not expire. So, go get a BFR and renew your medical or go the BasicMed route for a medical. Then you can get training in any airplane a flight school may have for you to fly. Then work out how you can get specific training in the RV12.

Look at the replies from perfect strangers around the country who have replied to your threads you have posted. There are ways to do it and people around willing to help you do it. So take that old NIKE slogan to heart -- JUST DO IT!
 
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Just Do IT!!

I got my PPL in 1972. I flew until 1986. I stopped flying until I decided to build a Sonex in 2004. 18 years.

In 2004 I got my Class III medical, and found a local CFI to give me a BFR in his Champ. He gave me an hour of ground to get me up to speed on all the airspace changes (I had done some studying, of course), and then we flew for about 1.5 hours, including a dozen landings.

He signed me off and I was ready to go!! By the time I finished the Sonex in 2007 my medical had expired so I flew it under LSA rules until I sold it and bought an RV-4 in 2011.

That's all there is to it. Like everyone says, get your medical (Class III or BasicMed, which I have now), find a local flight school, and get current!!

I don't know whom you have contacted about insurance, but I have worked with Jenny at Gallagher and found all of them there to be exceptional!

We all expect your next post will inform us that you have your flight review in your log book and are getting transition training in your RV-12!!
 
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If one fails the class III medical, basic med is out the window until it can be passed. If one knows they cannot pass the class III, Sport Pilot is the way to stay in the air.

I think Don knows what he's doing.

As some have mentioned, there are options for getting signed off in a -12 and having confidence in flying the new plane.
 
I just wanted to take a moment and say...

...I love, love, love VAF. Where else can you find this type of community effort to help out a fellow aviator?
 
You sure got that right!
I just got three hours of BFR ground training for free from AOPA last weekend! Highly recommended source of training
 
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You sure got that right!
I just got three hours of BFR ground training for free from AOPA last weekend! Highly recommended source of training

Yup, Rusty Pilots course was my first stop after coming out of a 30 flying "retirement". They do a pretty nice job ...
 
Several posters have mentioned getting a medical. This is not necessary in order to get a Flight Review, or dual instruction, in, say, a 172. You only need a medical if you are PIC or a required crew member.
 
Several posters have mentioned getting a medical. This is not necessary in order to get a Flight Review, or dual instruction, in, say, a 172. You only need a medical if you are PIC or a required crew member.

Exactly right. Take the whole medical issue out of the dicussion. Do what I said in Post 28. Unless of course you feel in good conscience you can?t meet the known deficiency clause in 61.23.
 
Don,
Follow BigJohn's advice. That takes care of the regulations.
Your big problem is insurance. Many, if not most, insurance companies are reluctant to accept new customers who are 80 years old or older, especially rusty pilots. If it turns out that you are unable to get insurance, then here is what to do:
See a lawyer to get your affairs in order. Transfer your assets to your heirs. Set up joint bank accounts with heirs. Sell your property to your heirs using a "Quit Claim Deed". You get to live on the property until you die.
Then go fly without insurance. If you crash and walk away without hurting someone or damaging property, then your loss is one airplane, which I assume you can afford. If you or your estate gets sued, the amount is limited by your now meager assets. But if you only fly over sparsely populated areas, your chances of hurting someone are slim. It must be sparsely populated where you live so far away from the rest of the U.S.A. :D
 
Be aware that there are some states that require some form of insurance for GA aircraft.
Texas and it's surrounding states do not have any requirements.
MI and OR are states that require liability insurance for GA aircraft, unless they have recently changed.
There are several other states that have some requirements so if you choose to fly uninsured, it might be worth it to check out insurance requirements before you go on a long cross country across several states.
 
Don,
There is a flight school in Maryland that does training using Vans RV-12.
I called them and they were more than willing to work with me.
Quoted me $155 hr for the plane and $55 for the instructor with time booked before I got there. They thought 6-7 hours were needed and they suggested it would cover biannual.
http://chesapeakesportpilot.com

I really lucked out, just bought my RV-12 and had an instructor a couple of hundred miles away. I have been flying gliders for years and only needed 3.5 hrs and some ground time. Oh yes, the lady who I bought my 12 from is 86. She sold me her 12 because she bought an RV-7 taildragger that looks like a P51.
Good luck.
 
Pretty steep rental. Checkout Flying Cacti online. They operate out of Glendale airport in AZ and charge a little less than $100/hr plus instructor (about$50). Their RV-12 is about 2yrs old and has the Garmin G3X touch system.
 
RV-12 Training

I flew with Will Mclendon in Novato, CA to get my BFR and transition training. Will is a great instructor, and they have a nice RV-12 SLSA there.

Sarah
 
Don,
I looked you up. You're a Private Pilot. Last medical in 1993. You can get a BFR in a Cessna 152, (or whatever you want and is close to you). I say again, you're a PRIVATE pilot. Don't get a new medical (unless you know you can pass). Get the BFR signed off flying a Cessna and you're now legal to operate a light sport aircraft with a valid driver license. Never at any point would you have been PIC of the Cessna. The CFI would be PIC during the BFR. That's a fully legal and easy path for you to take.
 
Don,
I looked you up. You're a Private Pilot. Last medical in 1993. You can get a BFR in a Cessna 152, (or whatever you want and is close to you). I say again, you're a PRIVATE pilot. Don't get a new medical (unless you know you can pass). Get the BFR signed off flying a Cessna and you're now legal to operate a light sport aircraft with a valid driver license. Never at any point would you have been PIC of the Cessna. The CFI would be PIC during the BFR. That's a fully legal and easy path for you to take.

See Post #28. Don has been told this several times. And now he has been radio silent for nearly a month. Hey Don, we need an update!
 
Update. This post has brought up some interesting posts, as well as an FAA policy that can be read with some loopholes that one would not probably ever get caught ignoring.
I have recently found a CFI that has no problems giving a BFR in my ELSA experimental (That alone was a negative factor that I had never anticipated). we have a couple of hours already getting acquainted, looking good for me now.
 
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