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Lycoming part failure (really ECI)

Email I recieved from ECI

Mr. Phillips,

ECI is always concerned when notified of any type of failure that involves our product. The issue with the retainer clip is being thoroughly investigated by ECI and we are in the process of deciding what the best course of action will be. Currently we are using OEM parts until this issue is resolved.

We are very sorry that you have experienced this problem and will be happy to send you new parts at no charge. These will be sent on Sales Order 103763 to the address you have listed. ECI appreciates your patronage and we hope to work through this issue to our customer?s satisfaction. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thank You,

Tara Molyneux
Warranty Administrator
Engine Components, Inc
9503 Middlex
San Antonio, TX 78217
877-820-8101 ext. 115
Fax: 210-820-8102
Office Hours: M-F 12:00pm-5:00pm
 
az_gila said:
Lycoming is quite specific about not using a magnet on the tappets...
Click to expand...

Gil,

Another peeve I have. Good luck using a 40 year old document to overhaul your engine. It sucks!

Here's the quote from the Lycoming OH manual on dis-assembly:

"5-13. Hydraulic Lifters. Remove the hydraulic lifter from
the crankcase. Place each lifter as removed from
crankcase in its proper location in the cleaning basket.
The hydraulic lifters must be replaced in the same location
in crankcase from which they were removed."

Superior gives you more info:

(5) Remove and disassemble the hydraulic lifter assembly.
CAUTION: MAINTAIN THE PARTS OF EACH TAPPET ASSEMBLY
(a) Using hydraulic tappet tool, remove the pushrod socket (30, Figure 72-00-09.15) by placing heavy grease on ball end of the "T". By inserting the ball end in the tappet and withdrawing, the socket will adhere to the grease.
(b) Using the hollow end of the tool, push it over the plunger and withdraw the plunger. If the tool is not available, remove the pushrod socket with fingers or by using needle nose pliers. Insert a piece of wire bent at a right angle into the plunger between the plunger and the lifter body. Turn 90 degrees to engage a coil of spring and draw out the plunger assembly.

I saw nothing about not using a magnet. I tried using a prick and it was hydraulic locked so I called my A&P IA friend and he told me to use the magnet. Makes sense though that you could magnetize the tappets with the magnet. I am not sure what that would do, but good info none the less.
 
No.. only 8 years old....

...on the Lycoming Direct Drive Engine Overhaul Manual.
Part No. 80294-7 revised up to June 2002.

A note between Sections 6-16 and 6-17...

CAUTION
Do not use a magnet to remove the socket
or plunger assembly from the engine as it
could cause the ball to remain off its seat
making the unit inoperative.

Sounds pretty clear to me...

My Lycoming version has essentially the same text you quote from Superior, but is Section 6-17

Perhaps your Lycoming version has not been updated?

6-17. HYDRAULIC TAPPET PLUNGERS. (Where ap-
plicable) Using hydraulic tappet tool (64941), remove
the push rod socket by placing heavy grease on ball end
of ?T' inserting the ball end in socket and withdrawing,
the socket will adhere to the grease. Using the hollow
end of the tool pushing it over the plunger and withdrawing
the hydraulic tappet plunger. In the event the
hydraulic tappet tool is not available, remove the push
rod sockets with fingers or by using a pair of needlenose
pliers. (See figure 6-7). Bend a right angle in one
end of a piece of wire and insert this end into the space
between the plunger assembly and the tappet body. Turn
the wire 90" to engage a coil of the spring and draw out
the hydraulic tappet plunger assembly as shown in figure
6-8.

apkp777 said:
Gil,

Another peeve I have. Good luck using a 40 year old document to overhaul your engine. It sucks!

Here's the quote from the Lycoming OH manual on dis-assembly:

"5-13. Hydraulic Lifters. Remove the hydraulic lifter from
the crankcase. Place each lifter as removed from
crankcase in its proper location in the cleaning basket.
The hydraulic lifters must be replaced in the same location
in crankcase from which they were removed."

Superior gives you more info:

(5) Remove and disassemble the hydraulic lifter assembly.
CAUTION: MAINTAIN THE PARTS OF EACH TAPPET ASSEMBLY
(a) Using hydraulic tappet tool, remove the pushrod socket (30, Figure 72-00-09.15) by placing heavy grease on ball end of the "T". By inserting the ball end in the tappet and withdrawing, the socket will adhere to the grease.
(b) Using the hollow end of the tool, push it over the plunger and withdraw the plunger. If the tool is not available, remove the pushrod socket with fingers or by using needle nose pliers. Insert a piece of wire bent at a right angle into the plunger between the plunger and the lifter body. Turn 90 degrees to engage a coil of spring and draw out the plunger assembly.

I saw nothing about not using a magnet. I tried using a prick and it was hydraulic locked so I called my A&P IA friend and he told me to use the magnet. Makes sense though that you could magnetize the tappets with the magnet. I am not sure what that would do, but good info none the less.
Click to expand...
 
az_gila said:
...on the Lycoming Direct Drive Engine Overhaul Manual.
Part No. 80294-7 revised up to June 2002.
Click to expand...

I have OH manual 60294-7 published in 1979 (31 years old) revisions up to June 2002. I quoted from the series 76 manual. My mistake. I will check to make sure my tappet isn't magnetized.

In any case, don't use a magnet to remove the tappets.
 
Replace the 3 remaining push rod tube retainers. Here's a picture of my (4) ECI retainers.
214pipw.jpg
[/IMG]
 
Yep...

just what I suspected, put the washers under the retainer and this will not happen. BTW... I confirmed this with a Lycoming/ECI engine builder yesterday.
 
Careful how you order replacement parts.

I called A.E.R.O. last week, told them I had an ECi engine and that there was a problem with these springs and I wanted to order new ones.

Guess what they sent me...

Four new ECi springs. Duh...

I'll be ordering a second set of non-ECi springs on Monday.
 
N941WR said:
Careful how you order replacement parts.

I called A.E.R.O. last week, told them I had an ECi engine and that there was a problem with these springs and I wanted to order new ones.

Guess what they sent me...

Four new ECi springs. Duh...

I'll be ordering a second set of non-ECi springs on Monday.
Click to expand...

They sent me a set of Superior retainers. On another note, I was able to fly today after a week and a half of maintenance. Boy, it's dreadful having flown, then to have to spend a week working on it. Bill, I don't know how you do it.
 
You know... before you start spaming letters out to the FAA, ECI etc... maybe some basic research could be done. This is Common Knowledge (Common Sense). As stated before, Lycoming retainers will break if not shimmed and under this kind of bind, it has happened many times.
 
I Must...

give a hint... If you know how much these cylinders/heads just on Parallel valve engine move, you would probably quit flying. Let's not go into Angle valve engines. Check it out, YOU will be amazed.
 
I disagree...

LifeofReiley said:
You know... before you start spaming letters out to the FAA, ECI etc... maybe some basic research could be done. This is Common Knowledge (Common Sense). As stated before, Lycoming retainers will break if not shimmed and under this kind of bind, it has happened many times.
Click to expand...

The basic research should be to change the FAA Approved Parts Manual (if needed) to add a "As Required" note for washers/shims - and then a specification of how much gap there should exist before torquing down the nuts.

As I said before, my Lycoming cylinders came with no shims/washers as per the Parts manual. My old ECI Hardware manual is identical.

What's too tight and what's too loose?
 
az_gila said:
The basic research should be to change the FAA Approved Parts Manual (if needed) to add a "As Required" note for washers/shims - and then a specification of how much gap there should exist before torquing down the nuts.

As I said before, my Lycoming cylinders came with no shims/washers as per the Parts manual. My old ECI Hardware manual is identical.

What's too tight and what's too loose?
Click to expand...

The tubes with the Orings are not going anywhere in reality, a slight touch is all you want. It's a retainer, not a spring loaded hold down.
 
az_gila said:
The basic research should be to change the FAA Approved Parts Manual (if needed) to add a "As Required" note for washers/shims - and then a specification of how much gap there should exist before torquing down the nuts.

As I said before, my Lycoming cylinders came with no shims/washers as per the Parts manual. My old ECI Hardware manual is identical.

What's too tight and what's too loose?
Click to expand...

We can agree to disagree... let me know how your retainers work when you get your RV6A flying. :)
 
They are working fine...

LifeofReiley said:
We can agree to disagree... let me know how your retainers work when you get your RV6A flying. :)
Click to expand...

...in my Tiger's O-360 after a top overhaul 180 hours ago...:D

...and they will be inspected when I do a SB 388C baseline measurement at the next annual... they were Lycoming parts though...

My Lycoming valve wobble tool has also been used on a few local O-360 and O-320 engines - none of the ones I saw had washers/shims...
 
az_gila said:
...in my Tiger's O-360 after a top overhaul 180 hours ago...:D

...and they will be inspected when I do a SB 388C baseline measurement at the next annual... they were Lycoming parts though...

My Lycoming valve wobble tool has also been used on a few local O-360 and O-320 engines - none of the ones I saw had washers/shims...
Click to expand...

Hi Gil,

Nobody is talking about Valve Wobble here... ???
 
Done

This Thread is going nowhere... IMHO, get advise from a WELL known old timer respected in quality engine builds. :)
 
Last post...

LifeofReiley said:
Hi Gil,

Nobody is talking about Valve Wobble here... ???
Click to expand...

...but the valve wobble test reference was noting the fact that the rocker arms, shafts have to be removed and the pushrods and lifters removed for cleaning per the SB 338C.

This involves removing the pushrods tubes as you can guess, and the retaining spring/clip is removed and the associated hardware (and lack of washers/shims/spacers) can be seen...

My TOH was done with two experienced IA's looking over my shoulder....:)
 
Hi Gil,

We won't go into IA's and A&P's... Kinda link Cops, you have good and the bad and then the real ugly. You have the right to follow the latter. :D

Or maybe Spam Cans and Experimentals... Oh, that's right, you fly a Tiger. :)
 
LifeofReiley said:
You know... before you start spaming letters out to the FAA, ECI etc... maybe some basic research could be done. This is Common Knowledge (Common Sense). As stated before, Lycoming retainers will break if not shimmed and under this kind of bind, it has happened many times.
Click to expand...

I totally disagree that it is "common knowledge". And I don't agree that it is acceptable to put washers somewhere where the IPC doesn't call for them and because someone said to use them. Hey, I have an idea, why don't they write an overhaul manual and IPC and include those washers. And in the mean time come sign my logbook. Suppose the washers caused a problem. Do you think that ECI might say, "hey, you weren't supposed to put washers in there"? That's why you follow the manual. I signed my logbook "assembled in accordance with Lyc OH manual and ECI appropriate documents". Now I need to scribble that out and say "oh, except for the washers I put under the retainers, I did that in accordance with some guy who knows a guy who builds engines"

Furthermore, I don't think it NEEDS washers. I installed the new retainers and when installed they look perfect without.

Now if ECI wants to produce a service instruction that says "put washers under there" then no problem.

The lack of washers is not what caused the ECI part failure. The parts look and feel like junk, and lo and behold they are junk.

And as far as me "spaming" letters to the FAA and ECI, that's how our system works. I don't appreciate the implication you made by that. I paid good money for my engine, followed the manuals to assemble it, and I have the right and responsibility to involve those in authority to fix what I consider a serious problem. What do you think they will fix this without people complaining. ECI knows they have a problem. They are no longer making their own clips and are now using someone elses.
 
Last edited:
Couldn't agree with you more

Tony

Well said. Deviating from the IPC based on others opinions is not a good idea. If there is a problem, I want the fix coming from the guys that are going to warranty the product. I'm going to remove the valve covers today and find out what springs were used. I received this engine kit only a few months ago.
 
Last edited:
Civility gentlemen, civility. Keep it civil, or the game is over. You can respectfully disagree, and everyone will see your opinion. They can judge from how you present it whether or not it has merit.
 
A reply from Mahlon...

...and thanks Paul for your posting request...

From Mahlon R - forwarded with his permission...

Depends on the cylinder vintage.
If there is no raised boss around the hold down stud then you need a washer. But if there is a raised boss, that the retainer hold down stud is screwed into, then you don't.
The cylinder version, with the boss that doesn't require the washer, has been in production for a very long time and it is fairly rare to see a cylinder that doesn't have the boss and that needs a washer.
Good Luck,
Mahlon


If you need the washer... you do not have new cylinders (20+ years old?)...:)
I believe most of the earlier posts were folks with new cylinders with ECI retainers.

I think the boss was related to the older style pushrod tubes that were heavier and machined from solid - they used a square retainer (two of them) and a Lycoming spacer (not washer) part number 69345. The cylinder casting stopped the retainer from rotating, but the newer "dogbone" retainers need a lip to hold them in place and stop rotation - the older thick pushrod tubes do not have a lip.
Just to give you sticker shock - the old rectangular retainers (8 needed total - 2 per location) are listed at $91 each at AERO...:eek:

I'll post more details tonight...
 
Last edited:
Thanks to this thread I ordered replacement springs from AERO, just in case my ECi springs were broken.

This evening, with ZERO time on the ECI O-360 I removed the valve covers and found all four springs were broken.

In looking at page 6-4 of the Lycoming Overhaul Manual ? Direct Drive Engine, part no 60294-7, I found they list a spacer behind the spring. However, the ECi assembly manual does not list this part and neither does the Lycoming O-360-A manual, page 3-5.

Tony is correct, the AERO AKA Superior part is much thicker than the ECi part and should hold up better. Still, I put a washer and a half behind the spacer and there was still spring force holding the tubes in place. If this doesn?t work out, I?ll remove the ?light? washer down the road.

Thanks gang for pointing out this deficiency.
 
I just got off the phone with ECi regarding these broken springs.

They were adamant that I should not put any kind of spacers (washers) under the springs. They went on to say that they have redesigned the retainer springs and to install and to torque them to 50 - 70 inch pounds.

They are supposed to send me new springs, which I will try, if they look equal to or better than the Superior parts that are currently in the engine.
 
See Mahlon's...

N941WR said:
...They were adamant that I should not put any kind of spacers (washers) under the springs. .....
Click to expand...

...comments three posts above.

All of these "new" engines should not have a spacer... even if it makes you feel good...:)

PS The Lycoming parts manual for a specific model overrides the generic overhaul manual that covers all direct drive Lycomings.
 
Just got word that through the efforts of Darrel Starr (non RV "certified" aircraft owner) The FAA is pressing ECI to issue a Service Bulletin regarding the push rod tube retainer spring clips. As a point of reference, the FAA gave me a deaf ear because my engine was "experimental". Darrel's engine is on a certified aircraft and they could not ignore him.

Here is what I just received from Darrel:

Good Morning Darrel,

Last week I sent a follow-up request regarding our Safety Recommendation to see what came out of their July 11, meeting (FAA in Washington), I received their response this morning. They have decided on two actions, see a portion of their response below.


************************************************** ************************************************** *****************
Regarding Safety Recommendation 11.114, the following was recommended from
the FAA meeting:

a. Write an Special Airworthiness Information Bulletin (SAIB).

b. We are also working with the manufacturer on a Service Bulletin.
The service bulletin is already written but needs a few corrections.

Thanks,
They should be sending a formal response to the recommendation and I will
send that on to you when I get it. I will also be interested to see the
SAIB as well as the SB.

Thanks for all your efforts on this.

Have a great day,

James P Niehoff
FAASTeam Program Manager - Airworthiness
Minneapolis Flight Standards District Office
GL15 & GL13
PH: 612-253-4412
FAX: 612-253-4401
Darrel Starr, Super Cub, N18SY
 
Hello RV owners, we finally got SAIB NE-13-06 published!
Darrel Starr -- Super Cub N18SY

Here is today's thread from the supercub.org site on this subject.

SAIB for Broken Pushrod Tube Springs
You may recall that in 2010 I found broken pushrod tube springs in our O-320 in N18SY. Later, Mike at MCS Repair and OLDCROW also found broken springs. Here is the old thread.
http://www.supercub.org/forum/showth...tainer-Springs!

I gave my broken parts to Jim Niehoff at the MN FSDO and also contacted both the AOPA and EAA to get their clout behind having an AD written. Also several RV aircraft owners have reported broken springs and that information also was included in the FAA record. Well, thanks to Jim Niehoff constantly pushing the Washington FAA office and help too from AOPA, we just today got an SAIB on this subject -- not the AD we were hoping for but at least an SAIB. Perhaps if more people report finding broken springs this will eventually be upgraded to an AD.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgSAIB.nsf/0/69FE14836447BEF586257ABD00533486?OpenDocument&Highlight=ne-13-06
Look for SAIB, NE-13-06
 
Last edited:
Darrel,

Thank you for your help with this very important issue!

Now it is up to us E-AB fliers and builders to get the word and take the corrective action!

Replacing those springs is really easy and no one should fly with them!

PS. Welcome to VAF.
 
Glad to spread the word as far as possible. All I ask is that if any more of you find broken springs, please report it to the FAA. If the FAA gets lots of reports, they might make this into an AD which is what they should have done in the first place.
 
This is all fine except the SAIB doesn't give any specific info on how to do the check. It refers to an ECI Service Insruction (ECI SI 12-1)to get more info, but that document doesn't seem to be available, at least from my quick Google check.

Erich
 
These flat springs hold the pushrod tubes in place. So to check them, remove the valve covers. Broken springs might then fall out but the pieces might be trapped by the one nut holding the spring in place. Either look carefully for cracks in the spring adjacent to the nut or better yet, loosen the nut to see if the spring is broken. This will require that you have replecement sheet metal tabs available for the nut.
 
Well I've seen non-ECI retainer springs broken, in fact I've broken them myself. There are variations to the studs in the cylinder head casting and thats why if you buy a cylinder gasket kit they will come with different variations of retainer springs.

To be honest it irritates me that a private individual would be pressing the FAA to issue an AD. This would cost a lot of owners a lot of money to comply with, and just increases costs for all of us. It is not a safety of flight issue because even if the pushrod fell out (they won't) the rocker would keep it from falling very far and with only a remote chance of causing damage. All AD's originate from manufacturer service bulletins and I can tell you from experience, particularly on a certified aircraft I own with a recently issued AD, that once the FAA goes to issue an AD they usually throw in some stupid compliance requirements in addition to the SB. In other words getting them involved generally doesn't help much.
 
To be honest it irritates me that a private individual would be pressing the FAA to issue an AD.
Click to expand...

I pulled the covers off of my IO-360 after reading this thread and found the retainers were broken. They fell apart when removed. The engine has not yet flown so I feel fortunate to have caught this now.
I can't read every thread, no less every post so it's only luck that leads me to some of them. If we don't use the services (we pay for) of the FAA, how is a person supposed to know he's skating on thin ice with some of these issues? I agree that it would be nice to have a better system.
I'm certainly grateful (again) to have this forum!
 
Original Lycoming clip

First generation OEM Lycoming clip is .032", second generation is .040". ECI clip subject to the bulletin is .032" and you can't tell an original OEM clip from an ECI (no part marking). How's that gonna work when you can't tell one from the other?

Rain-soaked Grub
 
Follow up

I called ECI and they were very helpful. They said they would be sending new retainers, lock tabs and gaskets the same day. Kudos.
FYI: the engine was assembled by AeroSport in 2010 and they did use one heavy washer behind each of the retainers. So, what do you guys think? Should I reassemble with the washers as delivered from the builder or without per the manual or use the fit each part with "little pressure" method?
 
ColoCardinal said:
I called ECI and they were very helpful. They said they would be sending new retainers, lock tabs and gaskets the same day. Kudos.
FYI: the engine was assembled by AeroSport in 2010 and they did use one heavy washer behind each of the retainers. So, what do you guys think? Should I reassemble with the washers as delivered from the builder or without per the manual or use the fit each part with "little pressure" method?
Click to expand...

Yes Sir...

Look at #19 in this pic.

Photo of exploded diagram at http://i48.tinypic.com/30skftf.jpg
 
LifeofReiley said:
Yes Sir...

Look at #19 in this pic.

Photo of exploded diagram at http://i48.tinypic.com/30skftf.jpg
Click to expand...

NO SIR

I believe the picture you linked to is generic for the narrow deck cylinders.

Note the end shape of the pushrod tubes - machined not formed

Note the TWO springs in your diagram.

Note the square shape of those springs.

It's not for the much more common wide deck Lycomings....

This is a more applicable picture -

lyc-cylinder.jpg
 
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Bad... Bad... Shame on Aerosport for not knowing how to build a Lycoming engine. :eek: To each their own method, this has been done this way for years and years as the diagram shows and it works. :)
 
I must say that Gil's drawing looks more like what I saw (except for the washers) when I opened the valve covers. I wrote to AeroSport; mentioned that the Lyco manual doesnt show a washer and to ask how they decided on the spacer thickness.
 
absolutely makes NO difference Gil. You can leave your spacers out. Just an FYI, this all came about MANY moons ago when Lycoming spring retainers were known to break. :eek:
 
An update

After I built my ECi XIO-360, this ECI service instruction came out. ECi sent me new LW-14995 springs and lock plates. They have been on the shelf for a while.

This has been on my "to do" list for a while. My engine has 68 hours on it.

Today I replaced all four springs. All four of the original springs were fractured on both sides. They had not separated, likely because the lock plates held them in place. It is fairly obvious that the springs fractured upon installation.

I'm glad that "round tuit" :D showed up in the mail today.

The replacement process took all of two hours. I should not have put it off as long as I did.

Don
 
When I called ECi about this issue, they sent me the parts free. Their techs have been very supportive on engine cooling and fuel system issues. Good on them.

Don
 
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