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Pre-Buy Inspection Importance

Moosetrax

Active Member
I wanted to give a big thanks to Vic Syracuse for doing a fantastic pre-buy inspection that looks like has saved me a tremendous amount of headache down the road.

I cannot stress the importance of having an inspection done that is more than just what quality of the paint, interior, and carpet for loan purposes. These are machines that can cost you your life and if you get enamored by the beautiful paint job and the custom leather interior, you might miss the part that can kill you.

I did not end up with an airplane, but I ended up with a far better understanding of the kinds of things that are often overlooked in the experimental world. I'd be happy to share the details of my experience using Base Leg Aviation. Thank you Vic!
 
Having bought without a pre buy,
I had a bit of a different experience. I bought my airplane from someone who was tough to deal with and wouldn’t allow a pre buy, wouldn’t even answer questions. �� I have a good background with race cars which helped a little (far less than I thought it would) I got very lucky my airplane needed a year worth of work (flyable during this work though) but luckily the build quality was VERY good and everything found so far was from lack of attention of previous owners that was easily reversible. (Because I can do a lot of the work myself it would have cost a fortune if I had to pay for it) I don’t know that I would have bought my airplane had I had a pre buy. In the end When I see other airplanes that are shinier and prettier than mine was when I bought it, I also see that the build quality and attention to detail is far superior on my airplane than many I see for sale. That is where it counts too in the original build quality.

The maintenance issues can be caught up on in most cases. Ive redone most of the airplane from nose gear, oil lines, intake gaskets, exhaust, engine mounts, rudder pedals, gauges, etc there’s almsot no part of this airplane I haven’t had to bring up to where I wanted it and I’m still picking away at things (probably will be forever.). I’d probably do the same even if I built it though so just try to be sure the builder really thought through the build process. I do t think If I built this airplane I could have done nearly as a good of a job as Fred Stucklen did on it, everything was really well thought out and executed well. I can’t even imagine how good his third airplane must be.

Knock on wood, but When I see build issues people have creep up on VAF, I get nervous, look at that spot on my plane and it’s perfectly done.
 
The list of discrepancies is immaterial to the purpose of this post. The purpose to this post is that things may be hidden and the current owner may not even be aware. Have an A&P, especially one who knows RVs, go over everything thoroughly. Just because something is written in a logbook, doesn?t mean it?s the truth or that it?s been done.

There are a lot of first-time buyers out here, I?m one of them, who have a false perception that if it is written and signed in the logbook, then it must have been done. There have been unscrupulous people in the aviation business and an oversite could cost you a lot of money or maybe even your life.
 
Some data

Here are some facts:
The airplane was signed off with a condition inspection 12/2017. It has 3.9 hours on it since then. The oil is really black, and the owner says they changed the oil. The engine is a massive oil leak everywhere of dirty black oil. The engine is of unknown origin and has had 2 cylinders replaced in less than 400hours. The cylinders originally installed on the engine at the time of the build are also of unknown origin and have orange painted bases. I borescoped all cylinders and compression check showed 55/80 on one cylinder. It is my opinion that this engine probably has excess of 4000 hours on it, including a questionable overhaul.

The right brake pads are worn and need replacing. I don?t believe that happened in the 3.9 hours since the CI. The tool used for the CI was most likely a pen.

Looking through the ownership history and engine history the people involved have been convicted of fraudulent engine building and have spent time in jail. That is all public record. I do not know what the current owner knows or doesn?t know.

I do believe someone could get hurt with this engine currently installed.

I?m sure the OP would be willing to share details if contacted.

Vic
 
Any owner who won?t allow a pre-buy by a qualified guy, like Vic Syracuse, and there are others too, has something to hide......plain and simple. There?s risk involved, even with a quality pre-buy. You can minimize your risk witha quality pre-buy and doing some research about previous owners and the the builder.

Turbo......you are 100% correct that build quality is most important. Other things can be fixed or upgraded. The problem is the market is hot and it?s easy to over pay for an airplane right now.
 
Any owner who won’t allow a pre-buy by a qualified guy, like Vic Syracuse, and there are others too, has something to hide......plain and simple. There’s risk involved, even with a quality pre-buy. You can minimize your risk witha quality pre-buy and doing some research about previous owners and the the builder.

Turbo......you are 100% correct that build quality is most important. Other things can be fixed or upgraded. The problem is the market is hot and it’s easy to over pay for an airplane right now.

I ended up doing a fair amount of work on my RV-8 after purchase to correct items that should have been caught during pre-buy, most recent condition inspection or mentioned in the logbooks. Bad magneto, bad Ameri-King ELT, bad vacuum pump, bad master solenoid, bad battery, recurring fuel tank leak, old hoses, inspection for compliance with all SB's, CS prop past inspection date, etc. Fortunately, no issues with the SB's. Likely would have been better if I had an experienced RV inspector like Vic do the pre-buy. But I'm all caught up on that work now.

Have just finished a number of mods: New EI UBG-16 engine monitor, new EI FP-5 fuel flow computer, new ACK E-04 ELT, Anti-Splatt oil separator, Reiff pre-heater, one new PMag EI. That should be enough for awhile. :)

Going forward, I will only have my RV-8 professionally maintained.
 
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Another angle on this. I did a pre-buy inspection of the RV-12 I ended up buying. I took along a very well qualified person (ME, EAA tech counselor, multiple builder including RV-6 and RV-12). There were known issues. SBs not completed, fuel leak, etc. Given that there was nothing that couldn't be fixed, I paid accordingly with the understanding that I was buying a bit of a project. I think it worked out well.
 
A few more thoughts, some of which come from having observed the Oshkosh judging process for a few decades:
* Craftsmanship does not guarantee aircraft quality work, just like paint and upholstery don't guarantee airworthiness. A craftsman can do things right, but might not do the right things;
* When you buy a plane, any plane, there's no guarantee that everything is going to be correct, no matter what you do. My belief is that you can take a plane to a white gloves shop for an annual / condition inspection, immediately taxi it across the field to another white gloves shop and they'll find something...
* When you buy an airplane, especially a homebuilt, you're not only buying the hardware but in a sense you're also buying the reputation of the seller / builder. If the seller goes out of his way to tell you little things he's watching, that's a good sign. If he waves his arms and says how nice the plane flies while giving specious answers to direct questions, that's not good at all.

By the way, when I sold the RV-8A to a buyer 1500 miles away, his agent (a friend from 20 years prior) called me to ask about the plane. I told him that he had done the last annual condition inspection on the plane. That was the entire pre-buy...

As Budd Davisson (I think) once wrote, if you have a choice between a used homebuilt and a used snake, buy the used snake...

Ed
 
?When you buy an airplane, especially a homebuilt, you're not only buying the hardware but in a sense you're also buying the reputation of the seller / builder.?

Ed, this is 100% correct. Not just the current seller, but any previous sellers as well.
 
Pre buy

Fist time buyer/owner is looking at an RV-9A from a first time builder.
Just talked to VIC about the prebuy.
Pretty scary stories out there.
I also read a lot of threads that say people find their own RV grin in lots of happy-ending stories.
Please share your story if you recently avoided a nightmare with..say..an RV-9A in Oregon!

Thanks
Frank
 
I would like to point out that there is no dictionary definition of a prebuy! Sure someone like Vic will give you a really good one, but the next A&P might look thru the crack in the doors, count that there are two wings and a prop, and send you a bill. Be careful out there! You got to go with what you can find, but in my opinion, a recent builder of the identical plane can be a valuable asset as well. He knows what a defect looks like - cause he has made them!.
 
I just bought an RV 10 and the selection process was long and tedious. I rejected the first two at pre-buy. One had very poor quality finish work and a questionable motor. The second was dirty and poorly maintained. It was difficult to find someone with RV experience to do the inspections, Nick Bachert owned a -7 and was almost complete in his -10 and agreed to do the second plane. He was extremely thorough and saved me a ton of headache.

I finally found what I was looking for. Doug Peterson had built a -6, a -7, and my plane was his second -10. No he is not a for-profit serial builder, he flew all of his planes for a few years. His engineering background and years of experience building made me very comfortable with this plane. I had him do a condition inspection and hired another accomplished builder to inspect the airframe while it was opened up. The result has been a plane that I am very proud to own and fly.

All of this was expensive and time consuming but with the advice of folks like Vic, Jesse Saint, and Gary Brown the story has a happy ending. I want to thank all the folks in this owners group, I am glad to be onboard.

Mark Conner
2018 dues paid (and not just this forum)
 
I can't thank Vic enough for the two pre buys he did for me. Passed on both but he saved me a lot of money and headaches in the long run.
 
I can't thank Vic enough for the two pre buys he did for me. Passed on both but he saved me a lot of money and headaches in the long run.

Exact same experience I had with Vic, and also on two pre-buys. The second one was bad enough that I got a personal apology from the head of the maintenance shop that (supposedly) had been maintaining it....

In any event, I wouldn't think of buying again without hiring Vic.
 
Thanks for the info.
Wondering if any west coast folks have experience with a DAR Gary Brown?
If he already did a pre-buy would you still drag Vic all the way to Oregon?
 
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