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Buying partially complete plane

ty1295

Well Known Member
How is the 51% rule affected if you buy a partially completed airplane.

It seems to me one main advantage of building your own is the ability to work on your own plane when done without a full blown A&P. Does the process change in terms of FAA or even Vans if you buy someone elses unfinished kit to get started (and save a **** bucks maybe) and if so at one point?

Jeff
 
The "Major Portion" rule simply means that the aircraft must be built by "amateurs". i.e. Not for hire.
Anyone can maintain or modify an experimental amateur-built aircraft. The only restriction is the annual condition inspection. This must be done by an A&P or the repairman certificate holder for that particular aircraft.
If you purchase an incomplete amateur-built aircraft, be sure to acquire the "builder's log" along with the project showing that the aircraft has been built by amateurs.

To obtain the repairman certificate, you are not required to have built 51% yourself. You just have to show that you built enough of the aircraft to competently accomplish the condition inspection.
 
What if the builder logs were lost

The builder crated up the kit and moved it 25+ years ago to a dry area. Lost the builder logs before I got the kit and now found out that I needed the logs. What can I do to recreate the logs. Van?s does have some invoices dating to the mid 80?s which includes the 1984 update plans with the CN-2 update. It?s an RV-3A kit with the fuselage in the canoe stage and most of the assemblies (wings,tail,flaps etc) close to finished. I am torn between selling the kit as my mentor/partner had backed out of building and financial help due to personal problems. Or sitting on it for a couple of years until I can get started on this project. I have had it for sale but the question of builder logs and the wings seem to be a stopping point. Idea?s?
As this would be my first time building and I had emailed questions to Van?s before buying the kit, Logs did not hit my radar until 2weeks ago. Will a explanation of the kit and it?s progress, supported by Van?s invoices be enough?
Did I just buy scrap metal and an engine core? It came with a 0-235 Lycoming
Thanks in advance for your advice
 
There exists no requirement for log books, I assume what you are missing is some proof that it was amateur built, which can be in many different forms.
 
This is what the inspector will be looking for. Taken from FAA Order 8130.2j:
b. Review Aircraft Records.
(1) Supporting Documentation for the Eligibility Statement.
(a)Review the builder’s documentation to verify it shows: 1 What was fabricated, assembled, and inspected. 2 Who performed these actions. 3 The date the activity was performed. 4 Where the activity was performed. 5 The methods used. 6 Any commercial assistance or education assistance used.
(b)Examples of documentation include:
1 The applicable Amateur-Built Aircraft Fabrication and Assembly Checklist and detailed descriptions of the steps included in each of the listed tasks.
2 A comprehensive builder’s log that includes items such as drawings, engineering specifications, plans, references, handbooks, kit manufacturer’s data, photographs, video, documentation of commercial assistance used (including receipts), documentation of education assistance used, article inventories and histories, receipts, catalogs, and logbook entries.
(2) Review any documentation of in-process and pre-cover inspections.
 
Garwin, What can you do to re-create the logs? I would call the EAA with that question, but You may not be in bad shape.

How much of the kit is completed?

In order to be eligible for an experimental amateur built airworthiness certificate, 51% of the assembly and fabrication tasks must be done by an amateur builder. The burden of proof that the tasks were performed by an amateur builder is placed on the builder. If you do not have documentation via a build log, then proving those older tasks to be completed by an amateur may be difficult. But, your kit may have enough left to do to still have 51% of the fabrication and assembly tasks left to go. Realize that fabrication a part may take months, but assembling to the airframe may take minutes, and each task is worth one point.

A checklist that the FAA currently in use is Advisory Circular 20-27G. The FAA also has an 83 page long document (Lots of photos...easy read) called "Amateur Built Fabrication and Assembly Checklist (2009) Job Aid" that explains this for you.

If you go thru the checklist in about an hours time you could determine what is completed, what is left to go, and tally everything up to see if you are more than or less than 51%.
 
The builder crated up the kit and moved it 25+ years ago to a dry area. Lost the builder logs before I got the kit and now found out that I needed the logs. What can I do to recreate the logs. Van’s does have some invoices dating to the mid 80’s which includes the 1984 update plans with the CN-2 update. It’s an RV-3A kit with the fuselage in the canoe stage and most of the assemblies (wings,tail,flaps etc) close to finished. I am torn between selling the kit as my mentor/partner had backed out of building and financial help due to personal problems. Or sitting on it for a couple of years until I can get started on this project. I have had it for sale but the question of builder logs and the wings seem to be a stopping point. Idea’s?
As this would be my first time building and I had emailed questions to Van’s before buying the kit, Logs did not hit my radar until 2weeks ago. Will a explanation of the kit and it’s progress, supported by Van’s invoices be enough?
Did I just buy scrap metal and an engine core? It came with a 0-235 Lycoming
Thanks in advance for your advice

You need to find a local DAR (preferably the one that would be conducting the certification inspection) and discuss your situation and see if he is likely to issue a certificate. He can point out the details and paperwork you need to complete for the inspection. Most likely there is a way to make your project legal, but you need to be informed so all paperwork is in hand once the inspection occurs.

Having said all that, an early RV-3 project is going to be a challenge for a novice builder. If you enjoy an intensive journey into the building process then carry on. If you are more concerned with flying in a couple of years and don't want to 'reinvent the wheel' then a contemporary kit would be a more pleasant option.
 
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It seems to me one main advantage of building your own is the ability to work on your own plane when done without a full blown A&P.

Not so. Anyone, that is, anyone can work on an experimental, amateur built aircraft and -- here's the important part -- return it to service. You, your wife, your neighbor, your kid, the mailman, your mother in law, anybody. Anybody at all. All that is required is an annual condition inspection by an A&P.

As for doing that annual condition inspection, that is a different skill set from building the plane. Just because you did all the riveting doesn't mean that you know squat about checking an engine, for example. And some people, me among them, can be an excellent inspector of somebody else's work but not see the most obvious errors that I've made.

Hope this helps!

Ed
 
The builder crated up the kit and moved it 25+ years ago to a dry area. Lost the builder logs before I got the kit and now found out that I needed the logs. What can I do to recreate the logs. Van’s does have some invoices dating to the mid 80’s which includes the 1984 update plans with the CN-2 update. It’s an RV-3A kit with the fuselage in the canoe stage and most of the assemblies (wings,tail,flaps etc) close to finished. I am torn between selling the kit as my mentor/partner had backed out of building and financial help due to personal problems. Or sitting on it for a couple of years until I can get started on this project. I have had it for sale but the question of builder logs and the wings seem to be a stopping point. Idea’s?
As this would be my first time building and I had emailed questions to Van’s before buying the kit, Logs did not hit my radar until 2weeks ago. Will a explanation of the kit and it’s progress, supported by Van’s invoices be enough?
Did I just buy scrap metal and an engine core? It came with a 0-235 Lycoming
Thanks in advance for your advice

I purchased a 2nd hand 6A kit. The p/o had no logs, but had pictures though I never showed them to the FAA. I created an affidavit for the p/o to sign, stating that he did all of the work by himself and without professional assistance. As mentioned, this is what the FAA cares about regarding the 51% rule. This was more than adequate for the FSDO personnel. I had detailed logs of my efforts and had no issue getting the repairmans certificate. It was all about how detailed my knowledge was about the airframe and system components. My logs and discussions covered me removing, validating and sometimes repairing all of the control systems work and some structural work done by the p/o.

Larry
 
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I purchased a 2nd hand 6A kit. The p/o had no logs, but had pictures though I never showed them to the FAA. I created an affidavit for the p/o to sign, stating that he did all of the work by himself and without professional assistance. As mentioned, this is what the FAA cares about regarding the 51% rule. This was more than adequate for the FSDO personnel. I had detailed logs of my efforts and had no issue getting the repairmans certificate. It was all about how detailed my knowledge was about the airframe and system components. My logs and discussions covered me removing, validating and sometimes repairing all of the control systems work and some structural work done by the p/o.
Larry

Larry's is a very good solution. A statement from the original builder should be sufficient. As stated before, you should get with your inspector and ask what he/she wants to see.
 
Larry, what all did you state in the affidavit? Was it just that the previous build had done the work to the stage it is at? I may be able to get that done.
This was originally built in Hillsboro Oregon near Van?s Aircraft. With the seriel number of 10006, it appears to be the 6th RV-3 registration with Van?s. The 1973 blue prints are hand numbered ?43? The 1984 prints would be where the CN-2 wing update would have been. I am finding out a lot as I look into this. Completing this may be too much for me as a first time builder, but I don?t know yet where we are moving once I complete my flight training here. I am working on instrument rating and then Commercial/CFI. After that I am open to moving and hope to find a place with a good EAA chapter and a DAR near by.

Mel, know any DAR?s nearCarlsbad or Roswell NM? I should probably start looking now even though I may end back in Oregon where we are from. there is a lot of building going on there and Gary Brown ( a DAR ) has spoken at our chapter (1524) multiple times.
I am also looking into selling the kit as I will be over my head without help, but I still need to get the paperwork in order. I may try a 7 kit when I get this one sold and resettled near a building chapter. May be a better choice for a new builder.
I thank you all for the input, it sure helps a new guy out.
 
I bought a partially built kit, the previous builder had signed and dated each step when he did the check off box.

The FAA inspector was satisfied with that. I did get the inspector involved early on when I bought the project-------something I highly recommend you do also (Ditto if using a DAR).
 
The rules states that 51% must me be completed by amateur builders. For this part of the rule, no one cares which amateur did what part of the 51%. Only that 51% was completed by amateurs and not paid professional. If the p/o says that he did everything by himself and or friends, family, etc. and didn't have any commercial assistance, that should be adequate, assuming you attest to the same.

The repairmans certificate is a different matter. How much work you did will certainly be a factor. It is very important that you log everything that you do, including spending time looking over what the other builders did. The inspector wants to know that you know the aircraft inside and out. Clearly doing all of the works gets you there, but there are other methods to that end.

I can send you my affidavit, but it was only two, maybe three sentences.

Larry



Larry, what all did you state in the affidavit? Was it just that the previous build had done the work to the stage it is at? I may be able to get that done.
This was originally built in Hillsboro Oregon near Van’s Aircraft. With the seriel number of 10006, it appears to be the 6th RV-3 registration with Van’s. The 1973 blue prints are hand numbered “43” The 1984 prints would be where the CN-2 wing update would have been. I am finding out a lot as I look into this. Completing this may be too much for me as a first time builder, but I don’t know yet where we are moving once I complete my flight training here. I am working on instrument rating and then Commercial/CFI. After that I am open to moving and hope to find a place with a good EAA chapter and a DAR near by.

Mel, know any DAR’s nearCarlsbad or Roswell NM? I should probably start looking now even though I may end back in Oregon where we are from. there is a lot of building going on there and Gary Brown ( a DAR ) has spoken at our chapter (1524) multiple times.
I am also looking into selling the kit as I will be over my head without help, but I still need to get the paperwork in order. I may try a 7 kit when I get this one sold and resettled near a building chapter. May be a better choice for a new builder.
I thank you all for the input, it sure helps a new guy out.
 
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