Titan Engine for RV-7

Hi everyone.

I'm looking for an engine: IO-360 clone, 190 to 200HP for my RV-7...
I have quotes from Aerosport Power, Titan and Superior.
The most interesting (cheaper) is from Titan for the IOX-370 with 8.3:1 compression cylinders.
I don't know much about Titan, made a search on these forums and couldn't find much about them (I guess if there are no negative comments it's a good thing).
But I read that they have been bought by Continental which is now in Chinese hands.

questions:

- for those who are flying with a Titan engine, what is your experience with them (customer support, quality of engine, etc?)

- being under the Continental brand what is the risk of Continental deciding to stop producing Lycoming clones, therefore Titan engine, to reduce the competition to their own engines? Would that be a "risk" for future support and parts availability?

- How does Titan compare to Aerosport and Superior??

- what other engine maker would you recommend with good quality for price?

Thank you

Alain.

High_Flyer said:

- for those who are flying with a Titan engine, what is your experience with them (customer support, quality of engine, etc?).

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My RV-8 has a Titan IO-360. Has about 570 on the tach. Runs strong. Only dealt with customer service once for a minor issue. They were very responsive and helpful. That was before they were bought out.

- being under the Continental brand what is the risk of Continental deciding to stop producing Lycoming clones, therefore Titan engine, to reduce the competition to their own engines? Would that be a "risk" for future support and parts availability?

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I think Continental is in this business to make a profit and the risk for future support hasn't changed. Even if they withhold parts, you can still buy compatible parts from the competition.

- How does Titan compare to Aerosport and Superior??

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I think they all make a reliable and competitive product for a similar price. In this market they would have to remain in business.

- what other engine maker would you recommend with good quality for price?

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Lycoming from Vans.

I toured the Titan factory on Wednesday. What I saw left me with no reservations about their products and capabilities. I'll probably make a longer post about the visit on Monday or Tuesday when I'm not having to type on a smartphone.

Thank you

thanks to both of you for your replies.
Titan seems a good choice, superior is n?2 on my list...
Alain

Superior. My engine is 40 hours now and I have no leaks, oil consumption is 1 each 17 hours, nice and smooth.

I won't bore you with the particulars. But after the experience I have had with customer service and the poor work Titan did on my engine, I would not wish that on anyone. I finally gave up. I typed a few emails that documented my issues with the product but decided not to post it here as it would probably require a flame retarding suit. And the fact that I may need warranty work done in the future.

Look into ACE also. Kevin did not sell me an engine but has helped me tremendously after he left Titan.

High_Flyer said:

thanks to both of you for your replies.
Titan seems a good choice, superior is n?2 on my list...
Alain

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Alain, it would appear you are price shopping. That's ok, many do it.

But it you want QUALITY consider Barrett Precision Engines in Tulsa. You won't regret it.

have you considered a lycoming thunderbolt. they will custom build whatever you want. http://www.lycoming.com/Lycoming/PRODUCTS/Engines/NonCertified/Thunderbolt.aspx

David-aviator said:

Alain, it would appear you are price shopping. That's ok, many do it.

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I'm not really price shopping, but when I see 10,000$ price difference between two similar products I don't really get it.
I can understand a couple of thousand difference between two similar engines, but over 10K, really?
Yes at the moment Titan gave me the best quote for what I'm looking for, and apart from the one negative experience From AX-O above I only read good things about them, so why not?

The Lycoming sold by Vans is the most expensive of all (for 200 HP), and all the quotes I have for experimental Lycoming 'clones' vary by 25% from the highest to the lowest. Add shipping to France and VAT on the total and the difference once at my door can be up to 14000 Usd difference. Then there is the very bad exchange rate, at the lowest in 10 years, and that makes it 25% more expensive in Euro than 18 month ago.

Yes I'm trying to make the purchase of an engine less painful on my finances, but I still want a good engine that will run many hours without trouble, and good factory support if I ever need it.

Am I looking for the cheapest one? No, I'm ready to pay extra money if I am assured that I will get something extra out of it. But that is very complicated to quantify, I have to go by "feeling", after reading as much as I can here on VAF and elsewhere.

That was why I asked the question initially.

I know that each answer I will get will have a different opinion, and that's OK.

Thanks again to all for your replies.

Alain.

Hi Alian, While this may be totally irreverent, the IO360 200 HP from Vans is an angle valve and is much more expensive and heavier. Most others are offering up to 200 HP pumped up Parallel valve engines. Just a heads up.

Larry

My experience with ECI/Titan cylinders has not been good. I have the Carbide/Nitrite cylinders which I purchased for their corrosion resistance.
In 900 hours the jugs have been off three times for new rings.
I have just had my engine rebuilt and have purchased new Lycoming cylinders.

Alain, I recently finished the 2016 Engine Buyers Guide for Kitplanes; look for it in the January issue.

Under the circumstances, I won't offer an opinion about relative quality. You're already reading VAF, the most powerful tool ever created for researching that aspect.

I am a little surprised regarding your price comments. Because readers asked for it (a lot!), we asked every vendor to price their products for publication. You must carefully compare what you get, and vendors are free to quote something more or less at sale time...but apples to apples, here's a free preview:

Titan IOX360 180-189 HP injected w/ mags, fuel system, starter $28,062

Vans/Lycoming XIO-360-M1B 180 HP injected parallel valve w/ mags, fuel system, starter $29,700

Superior XP-360 180-185 HP injected w/ mags, fuel system, starter $25,600

Having recently spoken with more than a few folks in the Continental organization, I have no concern about their intent to continue building Lycoming-pattern engines. They have stopped production of Continental PMA parts.

Where the difference may lie is that Titan offers a "build it yourself" option, which brings the engine price, sans accessories, down to about 17k US.

I am working with someone that took this option and worked with an A&P to build the engine. When asked if he would do it again, he said he would not due to poor support from Titan after the sale.

AX-O said:

I won't bore you with the particulars. But after the experience I have had with customer service and the poor work Titan did on my engine, I would not wish that on anyone. I finally gave up. I typed a few emails that documented my issues with the product but decided not to post it here as it would probably require a flame retarding suit. And the fact that I may need warranty work done in the future.

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Axel, I sent you an email (your PM box was full) hoping to discuss your issues as I have the same engine.

Is anyone here flying with a Titan 409 or new ACE engine yet?

I guess I will throw in my experience with ECI as mine was much different than Axel's. I don't know when he had the problem but I purchased mine 2 years ago and that was before the sale to Continental.
I bought an ECI Titan IOX-320 and was able to order with P-mags and Precision Silverhawk injection.
Nice engine, nice price and I got it the way I wanted it.
Break in was with-in just a few hours and I have had very low oil burn. I am getting good performance and I would not hesitate to buy another.

Lets not forget that the name that goes on the engine doesn't always mean that's the company that manufactured the individual engine components, only who assembled them into a complete engine. The OP indicates he is considering both Aerosport Power and Titan engines. My Aerosport Power IO-360B1B was built up with ECI parts and the valve covers came with the big "Titan" labels. The choices being considered are not mutually exclusive.

erich

DanH said:

Alain, I recently finished the 2016 Engine Buyers Guide for Kitplanes; look for it in the January issue.

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Thanks Dan, I'll be looking at that very closely as I am a digital subscriber to Kitplanes.

Where the difference may lie is that Titan offers a "build it yourself" option, which brings the engine price, sans accessories, down to about 17k US.

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I asked that question to Titan and was told there is no change in the price if going to assemble the engine yourself at the assembly plant...


It's very interesting to see the different opinions from different people, some happy some unhappy about their experience dealing with the same engine manufacturer...

Thanks again for all the replies.

Alain.

Alain,

One final note on this subject as it can be over thought and over planned.

Sometimes a starting point of "keep it light, keep it simple" helps clarify the decision process.

This is a fun endeavor, not a rocket launch to Mars. The flying qualities of an RV are not compromised by going light and simple.

Raymo said:

Where the difference may lie is that Titan offers a "build it yourself" option, which brings the engine price, sans accessories, down to about 17k US.

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Do they still do this? I bought my ECi kit engine five years ago for around $15.5K and had a local IA assist me with the assembly. 450 hours later all is good.

Raymo said:

I am working with someone that took this option and worked with an A&P to build the engine. When asked if he would do it again, he said he would not due to poor support from Titan after the sale.

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I am not surprised by this comment. ECi is not Van's and was never staffed to help homebuilders assemble their engines. They simply sell parts and assume that the person purchasing it has the knowledge to put it together.

That may be why they stopped selling complete kits to individuals.

As for me and a few others I know, we would absolutely go the kit engine route again and I would do it with ECi/Titan/Continental or whatever name they are operating under.

One word of caution, they were recently purchased by Continental (which is now a Chinese company) and are struggling with the typical post acquisition adjustments.

Another thing to ponder. I don't think it wise to think of purchasing these engines as you would in purchasing a big screen television. In the later case you are dealing with the decision to buy a Sony, Visio, Toshiba, etc. name brand television. In that market one needs to understand the build quality of each manufacturer's product. In the case of these Lycoming clones and the companies in question, especially ECI, we are really discussing the company(s) that supply components that will be used to build an aircraft engine. Whether it be Superior, ECI/Titan, etc., in the vast majority of cases, they are supplying components to an engine shop such as Barrett, Aerosport, etc. who are then building the engine. So, the reality is these builders hold some of the responsibility of the quality of whatever engine is purchased. Just thinking in terms of whether an engine has Superior, Lycoming, ECI cylinders, pistons, cranks, etc. is only part of the quality equation. The builder, whoever that may be, will hold as much, if not more, responsibility for the quality of engine one ends up running.

N941WR said:

Do they still do this? I bought my ECi kit engine five years ago for around $15.5K and had a local IA assist me with the assembly. 450 hours later all is good.

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Yes, but as you eluded, apparently only to business/FBOs.