What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Another VR failure

and It sounds like Vans thinks it's a builder issue.


Mike

At times these forums are worse than playing the game telephone.....
Stories get full of twists and exaggerations....

Go back and read what I actually wrote. I said "some" of the failures have been caused by installation errors. I never said anything beyond that.
I only said that much, because so many incorrectly imply that all failures are from the same basic cause. They are not. You wouldn't believe what some builders have done......
 
Not What He Wrote

rv8ch, Scott wrote that SOME builders do unbelievable things, you seem to have read ALL builders.
 
What chance do the builders have

I don't think that Vans have no control over the warranty of clams to Rotax.

Vans sells a lot of engines for Rotax and if they can't get any help what chance do the builders have.

This is something that I think Vans should try to help get a better response from Rotax and a faster turnaround time.

If in a reasonable time and it was not installed wrong, then vans should replace it and send the bad one back to the their Vendor.

This has been a problem for a long time and Vans should get to the bottom of this.

My View

Joe Dallas





Dick,
I understand your frustration but you can't entirely blame Vans, they have no control over warranty claims.

Based on the posts above it sounds like Rotax is still blaming the failures on the RV-12 design, and It sounds like Vans thinks it's a builder issue.
Don't expect this to get resolved by either Vans, Rotax or Ducati...we are on our own.

Mike
 
Last edited:
VR failure

Thank you Joe for joining me in idea Van's Aircraft should back a part that only lasted 26.7 hours. It was properly installed or it would not have last that long...and it was inspected by Rotax Mechanic when they fixed initial charging problem...it is a bad part period...look at page after page of people having problems and replacing them with John Deer Regulators with some success...again thanks
 
Thank you Joe for joining me in idea Van's Aircraft should back a part that only lasted 26.7 hours.

I don't think Joe implied that Van's should warrant the failed part. I think everyone here is pretty much in agreement that the component manufacturer (in this case Rotax) should provide warranty claim.

However, Van's does design the RV-12 for the Rotax engine and should at least help the flying fraternity find a solution to the Ducati short-life problem. Van's should have Rotax's ear based on volume.
 
Failure of Ducati Regulator

So now we are getting somewhere, we at least a few are in agreement this part is faulty at least till Scott McDaniels chimes in...with the buying power of Van's I can't imagine they cannot do something better..I don't expect them to pay for more Ducati regulators..or cover warranty without compensation..but maybe look to something that works...so those of us flying can keep flying without agonizing warranty claims or experimental fixes!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Another VR failure........................................... .

My regulator that is installed in the interior under the panel shelf as per current RV-12 plans just went out at 118.8 hours. No clear indication of a coming failure. Just started the engine up with no charging and the regulator stone cold. It worked fine on the previous flight. A friend had a spare that when swapped works perfectly. As others said the regulator was hot but you could still hold your hand on it. Also the connectors looked good with evidence by grip marks of a strong deep clean connection.

There is a lot of finger pointing but an almost $200 part should last more than a year. My $10 Autozone automotive regulator in my RV-9 lasted 500 hours and about 6 years and it only cost $10 to replace. Scott- what has been Van's experience on VR life with the demonstrators for both the engine and panel locations? If it is longer, please share the secret with us.
 
We had a lot of failures with the electrical system in our fleet of radial powered crop dusters due mainly to demands we put on the system driving the night lights during spraying ops.
We found a fix by hooking an 80 uf capacitor onto the alternator. Smoothed out the spikes and no more electrical failures. Simple fix and resolved a very frustrating problem.
 
Last edited:
We had a lot of failures with the electrical system in our fleet of radial powered crop dusters due mainly to demands we put on the system driving the night lights during spraying ops.
We found a fix by hooking an 80 mf capacitor onto the alternator. Smoothed out the spikes and no more electrical failures. Simple fix and resolved a very frustrating problem.

I would be very interested in the wiring diagram for that! What two terminals did you attach the capacitor to? Voltage rating? Part number?

Thanks in advance..... :)
 
Going back a bit Pete and the electrical gurus can certainly correct me but I think it was as simple as a bridge between positive and negative on the alternator. We just secured the capacitor to the engine frame.
We've been all turbine since late 90's.
 
You cannot connect a 80 uF capacitor across an AC generator.
Do it if you are keen on cowling explosions.
You can do this on an old DC unit, but these are not used for the last 10 years
 
Can't find anything to support what you are saying Jack.
If that had been an issue I would know about it.
We were running alternators not generators.
Turbine aircraft run generators.
 
This is the RV-12 forum. RV-12s have AC generators (dynamos). They do not put out DC. Most electrolytic capacitors are polarity sensitive. If they are connected backwards or to AC voltage, they may self destruct.
 
An interesting test for non believers is to stick a capacitor in a 115 V socket.
It will explode like a fire cracker.

I think the capacitor is connected behind the rectifier across the DC voltage.
A lot of AC generators have a built-in rectifier so DC comes out.
 
We're mixing apples & pomegranates.

I don't know of any field wound alternators (which *are* AC creators) that don't have the diode (rectifier) array built into the case of the alternator, so that the output on the B lead is DC (with ripple).

The only automotive/aircraft alternators I've ever heard of that actually output AC are the permanent magnet 'dynamos' that are likely the actual subject of discussion, since this is the -12 forum and I'm guessing they are on Rotax 9xx's. That design is always mated to a 'regulator' which is actually a combination of the diode block & regulator in one box.

So the poster who mentioned the capacitor could have made it more clear if he'd mentioned placing the cap on the output of the rectifier/regulator module. I'd bet he assumed it was understood where to place the cap.
 
How to repair a Rotax 965-349 / Ducati 362001 Rectifier Regulator.

How to repair a Rotax 965-349 / Ducati 362001 Rectifier Regulator.

This procedure only applies to regulators made after 2009, these are marked with the number 362001.

The failures are mechanical, caused by lead stress and fretting of the power component at the PCB. Usually they are easily repaired.

This work is not permitted on regulator that will be installed in an S-LSA, unless you get authorization from Vans.

To remove the potting compound;
- cut along case/potting compound edge with a utility knife. Do all four sides.
- pry between the case and the potting compound to separate it from the PCB.
- use an orange wood or ice cream stick to separate the compound from the PCB
- start from the corner shown in the picture
- the entire process takes 10 minuets
- the removed potting compound can be reused when you are done...if you were careful

NSfvDoYnYroTArgkP_IJ3dNCaYE0x0D16L-mKuHmALCqTCqErn-E-ORGftFLSEQ3qBSg75PwpFzwxNqQ3Xg4x5bNZaXAsJ85AVBO-xRK5zRpdYl_gvB5jIHf-SwyNXkJMeYL2WJX8IxIXlTutXtUTNb7GeQ-B8u7ze7UD4f9y6WS4AumTfIXG3a6a0KZ-pa1sO02AK7ZPJaVpYhqmoqM3MJhlDQeqTC4GtH6F746-PnfBTeldG9e4IhfsxZzPzyf2OnWDs6MvXS6HzHvom7musyANX0xwdgnoHCToV2h1dZJTjJxqVg1NybXetL-WisaDRwJaJJbWs1RWtsFzVIFMbWgvWfYvZogwbu7AVXLP9ForSFUhrgPrEmK8TwalVusPQCLMA4KhFO1ut2lQLrz4MovAYc8I30Oj3-v0STi6WpQ_n2gt0R_azLaWEpQkrsXYuk3IFPxA3ZR7dwBXkKwTs8_prKLI_Y97xMpy_9Uj20MRIMk0ue08gdTbFUNHpq38xHbiYVwxLVu6CLYN57__RRIgwnlERsFy6AYQOVTjHY9359iU3hVIZgtxFXN6X2xZT-5-J7-PBuBApNvqgw4-5iE4Wx4GDrXmVLwSuExmn539thpf2Y3Gw_RFt5j6LUFqMyiaZ2MKtLkZpexec9qh9LpriWJcx4=w600-no




Inspect and resolder these eight locations

u3-XYwRwLQ8ldsNaZ4tS5W1BCaKpaTKymGF6GsnxFG_YKYDvOmjNxjrev3-CvUIMlZlNiGC2dUkxM-REt0u7gk54t_U_ORE7rrSTBtnwB97jbCH5oyL57IMmA1sGc3bksuVtole-woOMXRxy3BJ02ey-QZ3C1bgvpRy4USHkRtsAZrhGra7YwEvEbxVCwOmrDy8AY0g0qbD0BShPlt8xffRMjTMtdGXlS3vwlrWtsQrWJsTzf_JU4kK9jQ8FUqmOzvPDZSoSXRRHAPpiUc6bJp-hc2trOp_xEHT2aUf7W98a6M-BaBPx-8Wa4Kqg6yvwr9AqUbzeotE8M0PBWGWDAK99Ybpaxy-_G0l-o7EAIjSCq7w6aZumtua0WZQtbIBP52rO7Gu4mpYFZSObLfo9-4HPnzdOKmjsCFklWnLKkS8_XypL5QeialuPMqua3R_-lruBWerwpz26pLM2fpvpsUtQH0I4mpbe3QcUoz3-AmSCq_HNNNgE1H3mfhQ81bB3578eBVDo0eLcsPmcgdm8Awy2boMqmdScLQrdOYxj6uGsT7D170pTUtqoURsze7sfMfqCYeqZdZek3qc1SxMeeqEbjgP4Q4tuzR6DMars-Rl3QatAEdhpz8tDSq5vZkv3td-cZXwva4ZluaB8Nc_iymlkrPebJu8=w650-no




The removed plug of potting compound can be reattached with high temp RTV.

The total cost $0.00...if you don?t have buy the solder or RTV

Here is the link for a complete photo documentation of the repair to this regulator sample;

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0ByPxADyU-DwPX2FnUTRab2hYM0k

The test fixture is only required for troubleshooting, (and testing if desired.) This test fixture was built from built from material on hand, total cost $0.00.

Mike
 
Last edited:
Mike, excellent work. I know this is a lot to ask, but would you consider a video with some pointers and hints on the soldering and circuitry diagnosis? Any hints on eliminating the problem while repairing? Again, good job. You might have a new cottage industry here.
 
4/8/2017 update

This improvement may cause other issues...see post 77 below


Dave,

I?ve been giving a lot of thought to your question about improving the regulator while it?s opened up. We know these regulators fail from stresses in the power component leads. I always assumed these were operationally induced stresses. I?m beginning to rethink this theory. Yesterday I took apart a regulator (from the Sport Cruiser community) that was sent to me last week. This was a real eyeopener into the poor build quality by Ducati. I?m now wondering if these stresses were loaded on the components during manufacturing. With the new pliable gel potting compound the Operational vibrations induced on these pre-stressed leads may be enough to fracture the solder joints. This could explain why some last 10 hours and some hundreds of hours. Anyway, back to your question. There is a screw that holds down the bridge rectifier. My thought is to remove the screw, add an insulator and a washer to the screw and clamp both the PCB and the bridge. Then resolder the bridge and SCR leads to relieve any stresses. This will prevent any relative movement between these two parts.

ptjl7OoOo6a2SchrlJY9NF4Sge6jFhPzzrrlaXXx6amB4f3BG_YewJTUlW8CL8PkPedIHvYS2tZ_9W8rR2uRkSDml7S_kZ4SNhGCD0eRl0IC4IswfvPxlXiC7vLaFerQN37y3tlQXPqo9VdMMPbOLq4rEcxYcGpvvocA76Gx6T25Z2baoQWBDgJ3CuVYhLNeOCT_gZGkHiGIfUgvI5xiu0Y0MVvoWt39SvGRrwd8FNpKkIqEjqZiLrpNkzt_JBRTW6hUBO7hFWs50wFMgWzKHM7mSZjf1Mh9uOO-sfnI7tEG_A_8oMaRdoY0V2tEKe4Qc4jgMNdR8rML3PYJgkBGnm8JW2x_1pVmwguRCetxzfT2n3VYqkmnqfO_ujcfH9o7FyLzKuwvVi6xgW_Mmp7JIXr0Zj3YNqgwB_SXN3GrX5fInUcVh_Q8WJ1mzoLW9EVrT_dFkI8NiDBcQ6nAXTxiano4Ors2--8SSixhVCXi0fL3sCCeoIOJwOJbZWx9iNq-9Hp6_MZ2KPkSJIwAzjlSYYNu98Qh5th-z-bF1tn5NhQz7misUn7snRqEgEath0QRfay0AEbcyfQu8GRWMnM110BIV-VYnDe1T9vhEKM-J7sstgvnE0LRF4vMupoyRWQspHxxG8EnQj5uZFSiNC_u2_SS0GEYvsU=w700-no



As for that Sport Cruiser regulator

jmfwBq_cyQIZGqTnYl_8bdOHNBuE410H3GSbGqzPtXmvk-YskHCW1hTGsopt4Pav7DD79NMr3zS9lM52SmPTkR9M0R02QWgLdEAeoAOeWYJio1ypNIqHYyhbUvobg_RlJLpPzLrWa2CNBT5AVZVrSXtVjQMhrPEglQgg6lzGiZpMD3lPdgYP1uvdLStGrEdReBb_XRYmb2N9pY8i43zu8viNFVjW4HGi6fhw100c4lQkoKqIqfVv14HFKq-Ryhd4UruVTfkAeAJ3Be5rvrxLgKTR63vz3feIeivzhuyLU7Y151H9UuUBevUAvd244iCrQCo5lN0MbNjIfqnUzUNWxoIjya5W3iuHEywjryn4FE_C4aPkCBTRf_D9I2bFGFTR0ZWYBmRktF0uQaE3pEwUCg1q7enyewKRBzzw7f3vbiGfPQf6_B2lpJap901uflZjKozFfbnUsvgnuS7k0EDA8hIeLHolz9Zhj8afVgqWJAEKTmXguBqKEdzIjrPGBn0pfwO_LG_cEWh0W2n_3bqRD2rM9v4gD9SDFB2pe0uQ7DMgMg1IXxOd_PSrMUbGbhbqZ18azJLrqTWlubXgZnw5U4dBmvD55gUCNB7qJXOpU-mteU14BPSbo2Ss3KMZs1NL8je72_i3nDnVwIvH0pvI2dmn32Y7WH0=w700-no
 
Last edited:
Thank you Mike

This is proof positive that the quality of construction in (China?) is p-p. And as far as I am concerned, proof positive that Rotax doesn't give a d**n. I guess that Rotax receives a really nice profit from all of us who need replacement VRs.

So I will be carrying a replacement VR from flight number one. And I may even take my new one apart for inspection and your suggested modification before I fly with it. Such a pain - I really don't appreciate having to go flying carrying replacement parts. Rotax loses big time with me on this one. I'm unhappy and I haven't even flown my Rotax yet. So many of you have had to replace and/or update your VRs.

I am wondering, though, exactly how many of these VRs have failed? When those of you who have suffered a VR failure, did you report that to Van's on their notification form. I think that if everyone who suffered a VR failure reported it to Van's then Van's would be communicating with Rotax. Or have they already done so and have nothing to report?

So, the plot thickens. Anyway, thank you Mike for posting your most interesting results.
 
I got about 400 hours out of my first VR, and I wonder if I overreacted to a low bus voltage after start. I'm not sure that ROTAX and Vans deserves the condemnation focused on them for the VRs.

I do carry spare spark plugs, VR and electric fuel pump when I am on the road since they are not readily available at Podunk Airport, USA!
 
VR failure

My VR failed at 25 hours, contacted Van's and got no satisfaction..replaced with $35.00 dollar John Deer regulator which knock on wood is functioning just fine after three hours flying...do not know who's fault this is, Ducati or Rotax or Van's but spending $70,000 and having to replace parts after 25 hours does leave bad taste in mouth...by the way thanks a ton to those who have taken time and effort to look into Ducati's regulator and why it fails...
 
VR Failures

I had a failure of my Ducati VR about 6 months ago. Lost voltage completely. Found one of the wires from the engine had completely welded the pins of the plug together. My guess is that one of the diodes in the rectifier shorted out and current flow was directly to ground. Failed at about 150 hrs total time. Installed a new Ducati and all is fine. But last week I installed a JD just for fun and kept the Ducati in place for a spare. The JD worked fine and put out about 14.2 volts. However, after about 3 hrs it jumped up to over 17 volts and was very erratic. Needless to say I put the Ducati back into service. I don't think it is heat. Seems to me the current draw is too much on the -12. Maybe the Rans S-7's don't have all the current draw we have on our -12s. Just a guess.
 
Dave,

I looked closer at the Ducati design and have to withdraw the fix I suggested above. There is a clearance issue between the bridge rectifier and a trace on the PCB. It may be possible to ground one of the ?G? leads as shown here;

vApY9hLgJnihPGW66YPGiUIYtk4JExbVambj-YMuRc7k9xtGHFqHehXqIHjiwfWwUaW1Cpa9l2sFPDZdlpHmUNKxTM8xSTEyWWTwpD4OqvckNlgzJO8TmP66_AadZRSv1wfHMD1foeXdmdf4JkHtj834vDkr_xTsIIssyYd7k8x7Q8IiUiZGw8FTiwUkVoIDOoTFB4YgTDtmeJyt5-6_cCz6JLp9Y8EvxlKqp4DekYsREfgb2VQGQAOdD6qsudry_f5KN-goLg4RWBcKifLQIiaBsNu_fzbAwDW2cJuv3d63LnSHl6xYkYRwjJl8CjP1Un2WsU3TesRY_QTH0KX9GBVnKE8ayPP_nAA9-cJZjyT3g9b4wnN3Ile0lPy8lXXgkJMQIDjlPsvqg1lVQ0iBXYBglkLFIshAKT2AV-67jAkVpHaM24yi_2Mpy0-qO3pnLpR0MPZd7fvFS_DV-kIrSIS7ud-LIaobgFk9LiDT7NYL4PmHlGDkQTxC4vUWfxe0Nm1a0lWgJcesjiZec91AhC0JdHpY12jJnyQQ_Sge56d9HMx931zK4ZMPWwYstptYwMo8RhKdt0AgjpLkbi_vwIhFsU-yALzDcfuyZGGpa5Ta4eWUYShR8SJxx5nfRFvgTKG02HUa9YFAQuovnlvZ96x_mjWRkhQ=w600-no



No idea what Duacati was thing here???

Mike
 
Last edited:
Thanks Mike

I'm with you so far - this is a great find. Too bad that in order to fend off VR failure, we have to take a VR apart and check everything prior to flight. I realize that this will void my warranty but will probably take mine apart prior to first flight!! What a pain - I learned how to solder from an aerospace solderer so I am not afraid of the reconstruction phase.

Still, I think that with so many failures, Rotax should be looking into the quality control of the product that they force us (RV-12 - Van's) to use.

Can't help but think that if everyone who had a Bugatti RV-12 VR failure would so report to Van's on the Van's trouble report form, then maybe Van's would realize the scope of the problem and maybe Van's would look for a different VF for installation in the ELSA and SLSA models.

With >500 RV-12s flying Im still wondering:

* exactly how many VRs have failed?
* how many reports of failure did Van's receive?
* etc

If van's has a file with only - say - 15 reported VR failures, then that doesn't reflect the number of VR failures reported here.

It's up to us to help Van's with real statistics in my opinion.
 
Kitplanes article

I am waiting with great anticipation for the Kitplanes article on the Bugatti VR. I'm happy that this will be forthcoming. Thanks, Mr. Editor.:cool:
 
I got about 400 hours out of my first VR, and I wonder if I overreacted to a low bus voltage after start. I'm not sure that ROTAX and Vans deserves the condemnation focused on them for the VRs.

I do carry spare spark plugs, VR and electric fuel pump when I am on the road since they are not readily available at Podunk Airport, USA!

Expecting the unexpected I see...

A mechanical pump?

What's the plan for a flat?
 
4/8/2017 update

This improvement may cause other issues...see post 78 below


Dave,

I?ve been giving a lot of thought to your question about improving the regulator while it?s opened up. We know these regulators fail from stresses in the power component leads. I always assumed these were operationally induced stresses. I?m beginning to rethink this theory. Yesterday I took apart a regulator (from the Sport Cruiser community) that was sent to me last week. This was a real eyeopener into the poor build quality by Ducati. I?m now wondering if these stresses were loaded on the components during manufacturing. With the new pliable gel potting compound the Operational vibrations induced on these pre-stressed leads may be enough to fracture the solder joints. This could explain why some last 10 hours and some hundreds of hours. Anyway, back to your question. There is a screw that holds down the bridge rectifier. My thought is to remove the screw, add an insulator and a washer to the screw and clamp both the PCB and the bridge. Then resolder the bridge and SCR leads to relieve any stresses. This will prevent any relative movement between these two parts.

2nroa9t.jpg



As for that Sport Cruiser regulator

8zjy4p.jpg

Thinking hi-adventure for those mounted in the cockpit which smoke and sputter to a short...
 
VR repair

Mike, I can't thank you enough for your thorough analysis of the VR failures. Mine had a burned G pin just like your photo. I opened it up and the solder connection from the pin to the PCB was cracked. I made a good solder connection on both G pins and it is working fine so far. Thanks again for your analysis.
 
VR Meltdown

During a flight last week, I had a faint smell of something burning. Upon landing I examined the voltage regulator, which is located under the instrument panel. The following images display what it is I saw.

https://srlane9.tumblr.com/post/160707507168/vrmeltdown

This is the second VR I've installed. The first was installed on the shelf forward of the firewall. The first VR lasted approximately 75 hours while the 2nd one lasted 200 hours.

There didn't appear to be an indication of a pending VR failure with no irratic fluctuations in either voltage or amps.

Next step for me will be to download data from skyview to see what it is that I missed.

Looks like some wiring repair and another VR installation.

Scott
 
Last edited:
That looks like it could be just a connection failure. The regulator may be OK. I'd suggest taking the wires out of the connector and seeing what damage there is to them.

It's been observed before that the standard connector doesn't fully mate the spade connectors, even when fully engaged. If you had a wire not quite completely seated it could have caused a flaky connection, heating, arcing and the results you see.
 
VR Meltdown

Thanks for the replies. I removed the VR and upon closer inspection, the "R" connection may not have had an adequate connection. I like the idea of skipping the black connector but want to be sure the VR is still viable. Is there a way to test the VR?
 
Thanks for the replies. I removed the VR and upon closer inspection, the "R" connection may not have had an adequate connection. I like the idea of skipping the black connector but want to be sure the VR is still viable. Is there a way to test the VR?

Yes, place it in the round can in your garage that you haul out to the curb once a week...
 
Back
Top