What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Rebuild A Run-out Engine?

J

jnmeade

Well Known Member
Is it a cost-effective option to buy a run-out engine and rebuild it as opposed to buying new or even settling for a different engine to save money? I have the tools and skills available.
Am looking at the O-235 to O-360 range.
Would prefer car gas.
Will be in an experimental (natch).
 
That is exactly my plan. Tear it down, send it off for inspection, install new cylinders (or OH existing, if they are first run) and re-assemble.

Total cost should be around 15k vs 25k+ for all new.

EDIT: And if you don't go with high-compression pistons (> 8.5 to 1 or so), you can run MOGAS. (also my plan)
 
Last edited:
jnmeade said:
Is it a cost-effective option to buy a run-out engine and rebuild it as opposed to buying new or even settling for a different engine to save money? I have the tools and skills available.
Am looking at the O-235 to O-360 range.
Would prefer car gas.
Will be in an experimental (natch).
Click to expand...

It depends on how many times it's been overhauled. Just because it's timed out doesn't mean it's worn out. My engine was a first run, run-out. It had over 2800 hrs TT. Every part that I took out met serviceable tolerances.

The only reason I rebuilt it was to increase HP.

If it's only been overhauled once or twice and you have the tools and skills, then go for it.

Also, take a look at how previous overhauls were done. A lot can be gleaned by reading the logbook entry. If all parts are listed, that's one thing. If the entry simply says "overhauled IAW manufacturers instructions", I would be wary.
 
It works pretty well to buy a first-run runout engine, send the case and parts out to overhaulers, and reassemble it yourself. First-run cylinders should give you one more run. Or buy one with known bad cylinders and use do the same installing new ones. The Lycomings go together pretty easily. Manuals are online. This site will give you the idea
http://www.meyette.us/SuperiorTextPics.htm

It can get very expensive when the crank, cam, or lifters are not serviceable. A new cam is $3000-4000. You might want to buy from someone that will guarantee they are serviceable.

I suppose one of the low compression Lycomings would do OK on car gas. Google "Lycoming engine versions" to see which ones.
 
jnmeade said:
Is it a cost-effective option to buy a run-out engine and rebuild it as opposed to buying new or even settling for a different engine to save money? I have the tools and skills available.
Am looking at the O-235 to O-360 range.
Would prefer car gas.
Will be in an experimental (natch).
Click to expand...

I purchased a used wrecked aircraft for $2,600 to get an engine. I rebuilt the engine to new specs paying cash as I went over several years. When the engine went on my RV-6 (first flown September 1997) I had $12,000 dollars wrapped up in the rebuilt engine. At the time I spend the $2,600, I could have purchase a NEW Lycoming engine from Van's Aircraft for $12,000. Yes I am an A&P that has all the documentation to work on engines and a lot of the tools.

It is hard to beat the price of a new engine from Van's or one of the builders that advertise on VAF.
 
RV6_flyer said:
It is hard to beat the price of a new engine from Van's or one of the builders that advertise on VAF.
Click to expand...
Or it was when new engines were $12K. The cost of a new IO-360 is, what, well north of $25K? Closer to $30K if you don't wait for the Oshkosh special. I'm overhauling an O-360 and adding dual PMags, fuel injection and all new cylinders. I'll still save at least $10K, and that's with a certified engine shop doing the work. If I knew what I was doing enough to feel confident flying with an engine I assembled (which I don't), it could be a lot cheaper.

You do have to carefully pick your core engine though. If you spend $8K on a runout engine that has a bad crank or a cracked case, well, you may as well have bought new. Mine was a pretty good deal, though if the cylinders hadn't had so much exhaust port erosion it would have been a lot better. I'm also saving a substantial amount of money because I'm not in a hurry, so I can invest some time and shop around for good deals.

So rebuilding a mid-time or runout engine can be a good deal, if you do it right and maybe get a little lucky. Or it can end up costing nearly as much as brand new, it depends a lot on how you do it.
 
DaleB said:
You do have to carefully pick your core engine though. If you spend $8K on a runout engine that has a bad crank or a cracked case, well, you may as well have bought new. Mine was a pretty good deal, though if the cylinders hadn't had so much exhaust port erosion it would have been a lot better. I'm also saving a substantial amount of money because I'm not in a hurry, so I can invest some time and shop around for good deals.

So rebuilding a mid-time or runout engine can be a good deal, if you do it right and maybe get a little lucky. Or it can end up costing nearly as much as brand new, it depends a lot on how you do it.
Click to expand...

Amen. I bought a run-out core from a friend and the case, crank and cam had to be replaced. My all-in O/H cost wound up the same as an equivalent new engine. Don't count on cost savings unless you have a guarantee on the major components.
 
Ouch... so you saved a little money on gears.

I had discussed this with the local engine shop (Central Cylinder) to find out what kind of O/H cost I could expect on a typical used O-360. Based on that conversation it was obvious that unless I got a smokin' deal on a core, it would not ave a lot over the cost of a new engine from somebody like Titan.

I assumed that anything I bought would need all new cylinders and a new cam, and that I'd sell or scrap the carb, mags, starter and alternator (I ended up trading them to the shop in exchange for teardown and NDT). I also decided not to even consider anything that had suffered a prop strike -- too many unknowns.

That knocked out about 90% of the engines I saw for sale, either due to prop strike or price. I got a little lucky. After teardown and NDT it seems I bought one with a good cam and all internal parts, no cracks in the case, etc.
 
Regarding new vrs rebuild, when all is said and done the log tells a story especially when the aircraft is sold.

A new engine attracts more attention and pay back. A 25 year old engine is 25 years old in the log no matter what.

I went through the process twice and gave up on trying to save a few bucks rebuilding junk. New costs a bit more but it's worth it.

In the end you get what you pay for. Once in while luck prevails but the market is not stupid. A good used engine commands a good price. Junk is usually over priced and full of money traps. What is really frustrating is rebuilding an old engine to very good standards and sill having it being OLD in the log. You can end up with the cost of a new engine and stuck with an old engine in the log.
 
Engine

I will take Barrett over Lycoming by a huge margin.
Bill Harrelson did his two amazing record flights in the Lancair 4 with a Barrett engine.
 
jnmeade said:
Is it a cost-effective option to buy a run-out engine and rebuild it as opposed to buying new or even settling for a different engine to save money? I have the tools and skills available.
Am looking at the O-235 to O-360 range.
Would prefer car gas.
Will be in an experimental (natch).
Click to expand...

Is it cost effective? Depends on how good of a deal you get on a core. O-320 cores aren't particularly expensive and if you get a first run engine, you can save some money. That's what I did back in the day and I saved a little, learned a lot by building the engine, and know exactly what parts are in my engine.

I think 360's are a different story because the cores are in higher demand, and good luck finding a decent 540 core...
 
I should have said that at my age and the kind of flying I intend to do, I have utterly no interest in resale value. That is for someone else to worry about. Safety is a concern but I'm not carrying passengers for hire, or passengers at all very often, for that matter, so I am not going to worry about anything like Part 135 standards, just good, sound maintenance practices.
There has been some interesting and useful feedback. Thanks for the observations.
 
If you go the rebuilt route, and if you need a cam, "The New Firewall Forward" (800.444.0556) drilled and pressure lubricated STC'd cam is the only way to go. It is almost as good as having a roller cam and for an AC that sits for a week or two at a time, the only way that flat lifters get quick lubrication on start up. Textbook perfect cam lobe lift is .350" on a new 320 or 360. Not too many 2000 hour engines will still have proper lift remaining due to wear. The exception is a 2000 hour 0 320 that was flown (hard) every day. In this case the cam lobes likely never dried off- if you can find a flight school that has a first run 320 for sale....
Reground cams do not have(as much of) the nitrided hard wear resistant layer remaining and sometimes suffer a premature death short of TBO.
 
Last edited:
Is it a cost-effective option to buy a run-out engine and rebuild it as opposed to buying new or even settling for a different engine to save money?
Click to expand...

I think it's a case of some savings, but maybe not much. When you get the engine apart, considering inspection and repairs (as might be necessary - and there is likely some to be done) of the case, crank, cam, rods etc., work on the cylinders, adding up all the costs you should be on the correct side of the equation (but probably not by too much).

I have the tools and skills available.
Click to expand...

I'll put in a plug for the Lycoming engine school in Williamsport. Probably the best money I have spent in 45 years of this game.

Would prefer car gas.
Click to expand...

I'm not especially knowledgeable on using autogas, but I think you should check a little deeper with people and their experience with autogas in low wing aircraft.

Dan
 
My run-out rebuild

I did just that...but I also chose an engine many don't understand, the O320H2AD. I am an A&P, but that really doesn't really mean I am the Mac Daddy of engine builders. I acquired a first run engine from a local engine shop for dirt nothing because they had a few from O360 upgrades on 172's. I tore it down, sent the cases and rotating steel to reputable shops and had them inspected/refurbished/yellow tagged. The cylinders assemblies were decent, so I sent them for overhaul and new valves/guides at about half the cost of new. I overhauled the MA4SPA carb (easy job) and went through the Bendix dual mag. In all, I have right at 6K into my engine including new ignition harness and light weight starter. 5 years of flying behind it, I saved a bucket of $$. Going to do the same with a couple A-65's for my next project!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top