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  #1  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:22 PM
Aluminum Aluminum is offline
 
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Default IFR ticket without NAV

Could one complete the entire IFR training and checkride without a NAV radio?

As in, an RV with only a 625 or 355 Garmin. Would e.g. "GPS", "GPS circling" and "LPV" count as "three different approaches" to satisfy the FAR?
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  #2  
Old 02-05-2020, 12:58 PM
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bkervaski bkervaski is offline
 
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Yes, it's legal ... if you can find a willing examiner
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  #3  
Old 02-05-2020, 03:18 PM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
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Default And

...and therein lies the issue...IF you can find someone to do it...
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  #4  
Old 02-05-2020, 03:44 PM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
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Default For reference:

This is from the Instrument ACS:

"Task B. Precision Approach
The applicant must accomplish a precision approach to the decision altitude (DA) using aircraft navigational equipment for centerline and vertical guidance in simulated or actual instrument conditions. Acceptable instrument approaches for this part of the practical test are the ILS and GLS. In addition, if the installed equipment and database is current and qualified for IFR flight and approaches to LPV minima, an LPV minima approach can be flown to demonstrate precision approach proficiency if the LPV DA is equal to or less than 300 feet HAT."

In other words, you can substitute an LPV IF you have an IFR navigator with current DB and the LPV minimums are less than or equal to 300 above HAT...so not only does the equipment have to comply but the approach does, as well...
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  #5  
Old 02-05-2020, 03:45 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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My reading of the rules, as found in the preface to the former PTS, now ACS, is ‘no’. This preface says the examiner is to choose ‘3 different types of approaches’, then lists the acceptable ones. The differences are in the underlying nav aids, not whether the procedure is straight in or circle to land. Now, having said that, I know some examiners are willing to count one LNAV and one LPV to 400’ or greater minimums as two non-precision approaches, and one LPV to 300’ or less as a precision approach, all three ‘different’. So really you need to check with the examiner you intend to use.
BTW, CFII’s giving IPCs are bound by the same rules. I work around that (if the airplane has only gps) by simulating a gps failure - I hand the pilot my handheld nav radio and ask for a vor approach. If you have a DPE who insists on different nav approaches, ask him if this is acceptable to him.

Last edited by BobTurner : 02-05-2020 at 04:35 PM.
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  #6  
Old 02-05-2020, 04:34 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Task A. Nonprecision Approach
The evaluator will select nonprecision approaches representative of the type that the applicant is likely to use. The choices must use at least two different types of navigational aids.


This is the ACS quote. My interpretation is that ‘gps’ is one type of nav aid, so only one approach using gps is allowed. The second is supposed to use a different nav aid. But, as I said, some DPE’s put a different interpretation on this.
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  #7  
Old 02-05-2020, 04:38 PM
ColoradoSolar ColoradoSolar is offline
 
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I think of the issues is in Appendix 7 page A-16 “Task A. Nonprecision Approach The evaluator will select nonprecision approaches representative of the type that the applicant is likely to use. The choices must use at least two different types of navigational aids."

If you are being picky GPS is only one type of navigational aid, but in my opinion VOR and ILS are one type of navigational aid since they are both VHF nav aids so just GPS should count.
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  #8  
Old 02-06-2020, 06:52 AM
Tooch Tooch is offline
 
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Default Yes

I trained in my RV with no NAV radio. Only WAAS gps. I did find a DPE that was willing to do my check ride. He said the LPV down to 200 feet would be fine for the "precision" approach
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  #9  
Old 02-06-2020, 03:44 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tooch View Post
I trained in my RV with no NAV radio. Only WAAS gps. I did find a DPE that was willing to do my check ride. He said the LPV down to 200 feet would be fine for the "precision" approach
I think everyone agrees with that, as does the ACS. The issue is the "two different non-precision" approaches. What did he have you do for those?
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  #10  
Old 02-06-2020, 03:52 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Dan,
I know you asked specifically about the check ride. But the question extends to actual operation in IMC. How many backups, if any, are enough? You'll get answers to that question ranging from "legal minimum is enough" to "at least 2 props, 2 engines". I'd suggest that you make an as large as possible effort to educate yourself, get opinions from people you respect and trust, etc., and then make your own decision (remember, you're also deciding for any possible passengers) regarding how many backups are enough.
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