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  #31  
Old 11-08-2019, 11:59 AM
flyinhood flyinhood is offline
 
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Originally Posted by lr172 View Post
I don't think that is a good idea. I often hear people calling the wrong facility on initial call up. Identifying who you think you are talking to on the first call helps to "quickly" identify errors. Without this, when the wrong frequency is dialed in the controller could spend a decent amount of time trying to find the mystery plane that is not on his screen. We follow the same logic when we repeat the clearance instructions or amendments we just received. Yes, it wastes air time, but history has shown that it helps to bring out misunderstandings before they do damage, in the IFR environment anyways. Also, I don't think that I have ever heard ATC identify themselves as "approach" or "center." They always include the facility name and I suspect that is on purpose to avoid miscommunication.

Larry
During handoff try to ensure you have the right freq. Listen before check-in. Brevity helps in busy approach environments. Especially when wx sux and lots of guys flying lots of approaches at different airports (DFW area is manly where I teach IFR). All these are technique anyway.

But I am in agreement. With others. You are either Level, Climbing, or Descending. No “with you”. No “climbing to”. No “4 for 5”.
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  #32  
Old 11-08-2019, 12:28 PM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
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Default ...and

“...You are either Level, Climbing, or Descending. No “with you”. No “climbing to”. No “4 for 5”...”

Well, you would be very disappointed listening to radio chatter day in and day out. All of those terms, and many others, are routinely used every day. Is it proper phraseology? Nope, but it is reality...
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  #33  
Old 11-08-2019, 01:45 PM
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mike newall mike newall is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Southern Pete View Post
Perhaps that I always found controllers helpful when I lived in the US!!
Nah Luv, just you was talkin proper....like

I have spent the last 20 years flying from Perfidious Albion to the Colonies.

As I explained to many of the FO's, it's their train set, say as you hear.

In all due respect, I do not speak the Queens' English because I am from Oop North as we say.

But I listened, waited and conversed in an appropriate manner for the Controller. Some were correct and proper, some were relaxed and some were down right laid back...

Sitting over Flatulence Oklahoma or Badidliboin Odaidaho on a dark and stormy night listening to a laid back controller steering tired folks around big storms made me super proud that however you converse, pitch it to the recipient, be nice, be professional and talk.

Sadly, the statistics are littered with accident reports where introvert or shy pilots have not communicated and the result has not been good.

My guidance was, and always is, if you can talk as though on a phone, be nice and talk. Don't waste brain time trying to think how to put together what you want to say - you are on a hiding to disaster.
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  #34  
Old 11-08-2019, 03:36 PM
lr172 lr172 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by rocketman1988 View Post
“...You are either Level, Climbing, or Descending. No “with you”. No “climbing to”. No “4 for 5”...”

Well, you would be very disappointed listening to radio chatter day in and day out. All of those terms, and many others, are routinely used every day. Is it proper phraseology? Nope, but it is reality...
I always announce what I am climbing or decending to. I don't care that it wastes time. I want to ensure that I and my new controller are in agreement on what my clearance is. Seems like cheap insurance to me. Furhter, it was my understanding that they want your current altitude to confirm your gauge with their screen. We have often heard that controller mention altitude confirmed or not when calling out traffic. This is how they do that. Possibly it is just the first controller that needs to make the confirmation and not each controller along the route.

Larry
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Last edited by lr172 : 11-08-2019 at 03:55 PM.
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  #35  
Old 11-08-2019, 04:00 PM
BillL BillL is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketman1988 View Post
"...so I have begun to just call out my tail # and wait. Then "RV226 whiskey lima level eight thousand"..."

...and you contribute to the congestion on the frequency because now he has to ASK for the information that you should have provided on the initial call and you have to answer...again...
Negative, Bob, that method avoided congestion . . .after two calls spaced a couple few minutes apart where I apparently stepped on someone on the other frequency with the full report, he says, "I am working two frequencies, everybody stand by, then asked what I said . . . . Don't make assumptions.

There is no way for a pilot to interject the full report in clear air if we can not hear another frequency with heavy traffic from ATC.
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  #36  
Old 11-08-2019, 04:24 PM
BillL BillL is offline
 
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Originally Posted by crabandy View Post
Bill, just curious if it was a point to point normal XC or a multiple airport multiple approaches bouncing in and out of different facilities.
Flight plan info to/from centers, approach controls as towers doesn’t process the same. Some routes like IAF’s versus landing airports and temporary versus filed altitude can raise questions as to what the aircraft is or wants to do.
It was on a point to point 600nm cross country, and I filed/got 8000, so it 13-14 hand offs at that altitude. I did accept an altitude change for traffic and stayed at 10k. I don't remember if it was before or after that. It seemed there was talking to "approach" more frequently at 8k than at 10k, but just could have been the route.

I don't know if that answers the question??
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  #37  
Old 11-08-2019, 05:18 PM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
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"...I always announce what I am climbing or decending to. I don't care that it wastes time..."

Larry, as you should according to proper phraseology. I think you might have thought the statement between the quotes was mine; it was not. It was the statement that I was replying to in the second line. According to the FAA, on check in:

"Pilot: Station, callsign, passing current altitude, climbing (descending) to altitude, other ATC clearances assigned"




"Negative, Bob, that method avoided congestion . . .after two calls spaced a couple few minutes apart where I apparently stepped on someone on the other frequency with the full report, he says, "I am working two frequencies, everybody stand by, then asked what I said . . . . Don't make assumptions.

There is no way for a pilot to interject the full report in clear air if we can not hear another frequency with heavy traffic from ATC."

Bill, do I detect a bit of condescension? That isn't necessary. My point is that checking on with just you N number can cause several additional communications between you and ATC, which increases congestion on an already busy frequency. That is why you check on as noted above. In this case though, you already tried twice and the controller was swamped.

As far as your second statement, I disagree. The controllers are expecting you after a hand off and they are expecting to here what is detailed above. They can also, as we do, work several frequencies successfully. Yes, they can become overwhelmed but I fly in and out of many first tier airports every week, and pretty much everyone checks in with the required info, even though we cannot hear the other frequency ATC is working...
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  #38  
Old 11-08-2019, 06:35 PM
flyinhood flyinhood is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rocketman1988 View Post
“...You are either Level, Climbing, or Descending. No “with you”. No “climbing to”. No “4 for 5”...”

Well, you would be very disappointed listening to radio chatter day in and day out. All of those terms, and many others, are routinely used every day. Is it proper phraseology? Nope, but it is reality...
I know. I fly 121 during the week when I'm not instructing in piston stuff. I just try to encourage my customers to practice the best they can, knowing after were done they (we all) will regress some.
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  #39  
Old 11-08-2019, 06:54 PM
rocketman1988 rocketman1988 is offline
 
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Default fact

That's a fact...and if you fly 121 then you KNOW what I'm talking about!
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  #40  
Old 11-09-2019, 08:58 AM
turbosaaber turbosaaber is offline
 
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Default mode c validation

hi I work at Miami center and have been a controller since 89. We use altitude leaving to verify and validate your mode c. Now saying your altitude and assigned altitude is a good idea, otherwise you will hear verify assigned altitude. We want to make sure what is in the data block is factual. You have no idea how many times this has saved pilots and controllers from deviations. When we don't hear altitude leaving and assigned altitude it is like reading half a sentence.

Another scenario which is different but happens frequently... AAL57 is at FL360,High alt sector assigns AAL57 pilots discretion decent maintain FL240, AAL57 checks on with low altitude sector saying AAL57 FL360. Now the low altitude controller is confused. We have two options, get control from high so we can descend him or ask the pilot to verify his assigned altitude, both adding to workload.
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