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SB 13-12-12 Water proofing?

gossend

Well Known Member
Has anyone actually experienced water damage in flight? What actually happens? I mean, which box or boxes get damaged?
Four plus years, 1000 kits, and now this? Really?
 
Not here!

IMHO I have to believe this comes from the S-LSA built 12s. You have to think 20 years down the road and where the airplane is located like in the NORTHWET. If you park your airplane out on the ramp over a long period of time with out this fix water will leak in. I have a pretty good seal set up on my airplane around my canopy and have flown in lots of rain without any problems.:rolleyes: I also keep my plane in a hanger. When you sell new airplanes for over 100 gran you want them to last in all types of weather conditions while sitting out on the ramp for 40 years.:D
 
Has anyone actually experienced water damage in flight? What actually happens? I mean, which box or boxes get damaged?
Four plus years, 1000 kits, and now this? Really?

I have had water in the cockpit during flight, but don't know if it got behind the panel. I will happily seal the panel as I have found over the past 30 years, you never know when you might encounter some rain. It is a bulletin so if you don't want to comply with it, don't.:confused::confused:
 
For once I lucked out, and this SB came out just as I opened the avionics bay to deal with a failed GPS 496. Here in AZ the main issue is dust, and I noted a distinct gritty feel on most surfaces, but I think the main culprit is the small gap between the firewall and the vertical plate the canopy bolts to.
 
I had a lot of water ingress in real intense non stop rain for over 12 hours and the 12 tied down next to the runway. First time after many flying hours also in rain.
I could start the engine but a lof if things failed in sequence, starting with failing trim and sound on the headset going weird, etc.
When i tried to taxi to a hanger for fault finding also the engine stopped and water poored over my feet.
When I opened the instrument bay there was about 1/8 hinch of water on the tray and the magic box sitting with wet feet.
I never had water coming in during flight after gluing some foam behind the canopy hinge slots.
I found water comes in through the hinge slots and sips under the side panels on to the tray.
When the plane moved forward the water hit the keyswitch pcb shorting the ignition lines.
I managed to repair the box by rinsing, cleaning and drying and elevated the box half an inch by stan offs. Also drilled several drain holes in the tray so penetrating water can get out.
Finally used lots of RTV to seal all seems around the instrument bay.
Flew another 50 hours since without problems.
 
Good reply - thanks!

Jack, thanks for the informative and useful reply. I had thought about drilling a few drain holes, but the stand-offs are a great idea too. I'm on it!:cool:
 
...
Finally used lots of RTV to seal all seems around the instrument bay.
Flew another 50 hours since without problems...

In lieu of the SB procedure, my thoughts were the same as the above. Wouldn't this work just as well?
 
I found water comes in through the hinge slots and sips under the side panels on to the tray.

The construction manual has details regarding sealing along the bottom of the side ribs during construction. If those steps are followed, I don't think water can enter as you described.
 
Side rib sealing

CTT_2975-L.jpg
 
Who else with flying -12s has done this SB? Per the instructions? Or what methods? I take that cover on and off a fair amount, I am wondering what the "release agent" and seal look like after a couple of on-off cycles? Or is the intent to reseal it every time you take the cover off?

Actually, why are there separate instructions for flying or under construction? That cover is easy to take off even without removing the canopy.

I would prefer to take off the cover, put on release agent on the cover, then the sealant on the plane per the "under construction" instructions, then reattach it and let cure. Rather than remove the front panels and reach in. Anyone try that?
 
Bill, I complied with the bulletin and within a week pulled the panel. I had to run a putty knife between the two surfaces, but they separated easily.
There are some 12's out there that have not been trimmed appropriately to remove all the screws without removing the canopy first.
 
Dave - Did removing it (putty knife) tear up the seal?

Hmmm... I am wondering about a thin rubber gasket or tube or something like that cemented to either the base piece or the cover piece, aft of the screw holes but close enough to be compressed when they are tightened down.
 
I did the sealing SB last week on my completed RV-12. Be careful and make sure your "release agent" really works! That black silicone adhesive is mighty tenacious stuff! I applied two coats of hard paste wax and smeared Boelube on the top panel sheet hoping that that would suffice for the release agent. As per the SB, I applied a very thin (1/16") bead of sealer along the top of the firewall former, reattached the top sheet, and let it dry. That black silicone adhesive cut right through my release agent and adhered the top sheet to the firewall former. Took some aggressive use of a thin putty knife to carefully separate the two. Next time, I think I'll try some axle grease or bacon fat as the release agent. :D
 
I chose to use the blue rtv because of my belief that the red and black are too adhesive. When I removed the fuselage skin, it was not hard to get off. This being said, some of the rtv did adhere to the top, but not much. I left it there and felt that when compressed again, I would have a seal. Overall, I am satisfied. It is something that needs to be done. JMO?
 
Same sticky issues with black sealant

Very similar to comments above, I used Boelube and a spray can release agent that I use for epoxy work. Thought I put it on very liberally.

The sealant still stuck to the top skin, and like the others I needed to use a putty knife and patience to pry the top skin off. Most of the dry sealant remained, but not everywhere and its a mess quite frankly. I followed the SB exactly as instructed. A thin gasket would have been much better I believe, especially if you want easy access to the avionics shelf (as I do) during testing ect...
 
A few years ago I found the perfect seal at Oshkosh. Bought the front canopy seal from Aircraft Door Seals. They are located in TX. Mounted the seal to the underside of the canopy. Works very well and has not moved since I installed it on the fiberglass. Looks better stuck to the fiberglass than the top of the panel cover.

Is about 1/16"-1/8" thick (compresses well) and 3/16" to 1/4" wide. The receipt says # UWS/50 5'x3. (Might be VWS/50.)

the cost was about $15. Came with a small plastic vial of silicone grease.
 
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" That black silicone adhesive cut right through my release agent and adhered the top sheet to the firewall former. "

Why is it that sealants like that always stick where you don't want them to stick and never stick where you DO want them to stick?

Just wondering.....

I have had that panel off over a dozen times - I think I'll investigate Marty's solution. As my pal Tony T. always says - "Pays not to be an early adopter."

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
The front panel seal isn't the canopy seal - different animals! A sponge-like not-too-thick (3/16 maybe) seal in the right place will work for the underside of the canopy (I have that) but would be way too thick for the front panel cover.
 
I think we're on the same page, Bill - or I think we are! Yes, we're talking the instrument panel water seal, and not the canopy air draft seal.

Bob B.
 
No good here either...

I waited a long time for the recommended sticky stuff to arrive from the US. The job seemed easy when it did arrive, but I had a **** of a job removing the top cover next time around - to the extent that I damaged the fibreglass canopy surround trying to unstick it. I have scraped off all of the gunge which was 50% on the top surface and 50% on the bottom, in spite of liberal coating with Boelube. I may just use electrical tape next time...

Cheers...Keith
 
A few years ago I found the perfect seal at Oshkosh. Bought the front canopy seal from Aircraft Door Seals. They are located in TX. Mounted the seal to the underside of the canopy. Works very well and has not moved since I installed it on the fiberglass. Looks better stuck to the fiberglass than the top of the panel cover.

Is about 1/16"-1/8" thick (compresses well) and 3/16" to 1/4" wide. The receipt says # UWS/50 5'x3. (Might be VWS/50.)

the cost was about $15. Came with a small plastic vial of silicone grease.

I contacted these guys and the product is VWS 150 (1/8" thick and 1/4" wide) and runs for $3/ft. They also have a VWS 100 which is 1/8" thick and 3/16" wide. For bulk ordering you need to call them or inquire by email as they don't have a bulk option in their web store.
I think I'll try their VWS 100 for the seal between canopy bottom and the avionics cover. 1/8" might be too thick to seal the avionics bay against water but we'll see. If it compresses very well it might just be ok for that as well.
 
MacPara,

Were you able to try the VWS product for the instrument panel and/or the canopy to instrument panel seals?
 
Tape Instead

Here's what I did. Electrical tape, one layer thick as shown in the first pic, also similarly at the top of the side panels. Note it is aft of the row of holes. If water went down through the holes it would be inside the engine compartment, not in the panel.

photo%25201.JPG


Then on the underside of the top panel, two layers of tape to match up with the tape on the lower pieces.
photo%25202.JPG


Figuring out a way to test it... No way I was going to put on something that has to be pried with a putty knife
 
I received the product and it looks very promising as it is very compressible while springing back to its original shape when pressure is released. However, I did not get to install it yet, which is partly due to the very high temperatures here in Tucson and so I was working on other things that were more pressing. I'll follow up as soon as I got to it ...
 
For those who used the silicone: how much time is needed for the sealant to cure? With little air contact to promote curing, I'm guessing I should wait several days at least before trying to open the bay up again?
 
Silicone seems to need many days to dry in the absence of air -- just ask some of us who rushed the silicone sealing process on the cabin heater door! Give it at least several days to set. Make a test piece when you do the sealing and use that as your guide.
 
I did mine similar to Bill's but used silicone rescue tape glued to the upper cowl with silicone cement. I got the stuff from ACS. Fast and easy.
 
SB 13-12-12

I?m ready to apply the seal between the F-1240 Upper Forward Fuselage Skin and the Fwd Fuse Doubler per 29A-06, Rev 4, Step 8. However, I?m hesitant after reading some of the reported experiences with the Permatex 16BR adhesive.

? I had initially thought of lining the underside edge of F-1240 with clear packing tape, and then swab that with a thin coat of light oil to effect an easy release. Has anyone tried that? Results?

? Mitch757: How thick is that rescue tape? How well does it adhere with the silicone cement? Which cement?the two part GeeBee from ACS? Any difficulty getting the F-1240 back on the fuse? (You used the term ?upper cowl,? which I assumed to be the F-1240. Is that correct?) Any follow up observations?

? Bill_H: Thanks for the photos. How long have you had the tape on? Flown much with it since? Does it seem to be doing the job OK at only one layer? Any proof testing?

? Anyone who has used the Permatex 16BR: Any special precautions taken to prevent the stuff from getting in the screw holes?

Would greatly appreciate any feedback about this. Thanks in advance.

Side note: I shopped the Permatex on-line. O?Reilly Auto Parts has the 3 oz size listed at $5.89, and Walmart shows $14.31 for the same one?gotta be something wrong there.
 
Using Rescue Tape

Hi John,

The rescue tape that I got is about .018" thick. You can double it up as much as you want and it will adhere to itself.

Yes, the glue is the two part stuff supplied by Gee-Bee AeroProducts (GBSC-2) and sold by ACS. It sticks extremely well and is specifically compounded to adhere silicone seals to aircraft. The stuff is a bit pricey, but will remain useful for quite a while if kept in a refrigerator after mixing. Mine is still good after 3 years.

I used one layer on the F-1240 forward and two layers on the sides and it has worked out well.

I'm also going to use this under the fiberglas wingtip light fairings instead of the proseal.

Mitch
 
It was 3 layers of tape. No rain flying since and I haven't proof tested. My plan it to run some water on it for a bit right before the next time I have a reason to take that panel off.
 
Thanks for the replies, gents. Now, does anybody aboard know where I can find out what happens when Rescue Tape burns...that and the Gee-Bee adhesive? I haven't been able to locate any safety data for them on line. Since these are intended to be in contact with the firewall, I think it might be good info to have.
 
I used red high temperature automotive kit. Waxed the top panel. No problem with taking off the top panel afterwards.
 
I just finished sealing the avionics bay per sb13-12-12. After some of the stories about release agents not really working, I tried all manner of concoctions on scrap and discovered that the stories were true. What worked far better than anything else (including traditional car wax, synthetic car wax, Boelube, and ChapStic), was silicone O-ring lube like the kind used for swimming pool o-rings. I gave the Permatex a week to set up and then was able to pop the fuselage skin back off with only a small bit of sticking. It cleaned up really well with denatured alcohol. Hope this helps those of you that have not yet done this.
 
Electrical tape too thin

At the second attempt, I reverted to using just one layer of electrical tape. This has proved insufficient. I recently flew through some light rain and had rain drips coming through and running down the instrument panel. I keep absorbent paper handy in the cockpit to mop it up, but this is obviously far from ideal...

Cheers...Keith
 
Used the rescue tape method

I opted to try the rescue tape bonded with silicone cement. Seems to work OK. I didn't have any major issues. There is one thing I'd like to pass on about the silicone cement from Gee-Bee AeroProducts (GBSC-2). I mixed up a small batch in one of the 2 oz plastic shot glasses I've been using for small quantities of firewall sealant. There was a good bit left over which I set aside. When I came back to the hangar two days later I found that the plastic glass had melted and there was a puddle of cured cement to be scraped up. I'm lucky it didn't happen to affect anything of value.
 
What worked far better than anything else (including traditional car wax, synthetic car wax, Boelube, and ChapStic), was silicone O-ring lube like the kind used for swimming pool o-rings. I gave the Permatex a week to set up and then was able to pop the fuselage skin back off with only a small bit of sticking. It cleaned up really well with denatured alcohol. Hope this helps those of you that have not yet done this.

THANKS! After reading about how much trouble folks were having, I tried your method on scrap and found that 48 hours minimum worked. So I went ahead and used Permatex Black Silicone 81158 as the sealant and Boss 820 Silicone Lube as the release agent and the ends of the parts just separated cleanly when I peeked after 48 hours.

Jeff

Edit: Here are the pics after letting the sealant cure for one week and then removing the avionics bay.

AvionicsBayInf.jpg

AvionicsBaySup.jpg


P.S. Be sure to now put in the "do not rivet" flush rivet for the most lateral nutplate before screwing down the F-1240 upper forward fuselage skin. And don't ask me what happens if you forget to do this.
 
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I contacted these guys and the product is VWS 150 (1/8" thick and 1/4" wide) and runs for $3/ft. They also have a VWS 100 which is 1/8" thick and 3/16" wide. For bulk ordering you need to call them or inquire by email as they don't have a bulk option in their web store.
I think I'll try their VWS 100 for the seal between canopy bottom and the avionics cover. 1/8" might be too thick to seal the avionics bay against water but we'll see. If it compresses very well it might just be ok for that as well.

I admit it took me a while. Even longer than I had anticipated but, honestly, there is really not much need for water-proofing anything down here.

I finally installed the VWS 100 on top of the firewall and it works great. Compressed with minimal effort and must seal the bay virtually air tight now.

IMAG0097%5B1%5D.jpg


I installed the slightly wider version VWS 150 under the canopy skirt to keep water from being pushed through that minimal gap and running over the panel. I guess the only opportunity to test this might be by getting the plane washed in one of those fancy washing streets.
 
Permatex problem

I installed the Permatex as noted in SB `3-12-12 while I was building the fuselage. Now, 6 months later getting ready to install my avionics I tried to remove the F1240 Upper Forward Fuselage skin and it is not moving, like welded. Is there a chemical release agent or a method you are aware of that can help me, I do not want to bend anything. Is it possible to install the Dynon system leaving the Upper Forward Fuselage skin in place?:
 
I assume this is the avionics bay cover. I'd use a sharp (new) hobby knife or a razor blade to slowly cut towards the cover skin. That way there might be enough sealant left on the firewall flange that it would still seal when screwing it back in place.
If you are sure you put release agent on the inside of the cover, you might be able to separate it by using a thin, dull tool like a chip chaser or such.
 
I coated the cover overlap at the edge with a light film of engine oil before installing. Mine came off fairly easily the next time I removed it and left the sealant on the opposing face.
 
RTV selant

Saw a product at Harbor Freight today called ProSeal clear RTV silicone adhesive and sealant #N80066....anyone tried that product? Any thoughts about how it would do the job of sealing the avionics bay?
 
rain damage?

This week we flew up to the AERO show in Friedrichshafen (Germany) from Barcelona (Spain). A real cross countr(ies), along France and Switzerland...

I completed the SB on time and protected throroughly the instrument pannel cover, sealing it acoording to the instructions.

In the south of France we were flying under a heavy rain for about 15 minutes, and a couple of drops of water entered the cockpit though the passenger side.
Few nm later the layout of the screens in the Dynon started dancing, changing from one layout to the next every other second (as if I was pressing the key constantly).

After a couple of minutes of "exciting" trip, the layout stop and I could go to my usual display set.

Following came a new surprise, when a controller asked to recycle my transponder, and there was no way to set the number "5" in the code. Trip continued in VFR code (7000 in Europe) uneventfully, till we land in EDNY.

After landing, I secured the plane in the ground and used the Vans grey cover. What this RV12 enjoyed then, were 36 consecutive hours of rain outside of a hangar. (I had a couple of bad nights of sleep).

Saturday the skies cleared and we decided to fly back home.

Earlier in this thread Jack Netherlands (Hotscam) talked about all sorts of failures after a heavy rain, that dissapeared after the avionics dryed out.
Well, there was no joy here... My key "5" of the transponder code was still a challenge. What was worse was that the FPL couldn?t be set to "Navigate", as if the option was not available in the Software! (I followed the trip setting a D-> every other airport till we landed home).

After landing I realised that all three issues (Navigate, Layout and code 5) do use the same button in the Dynon, so I convinced myself of a water damage in that button.

...but it appears, that is the same button that we used to set the FPL, the Xponder, the Code setting, etc... and these work perfectly! So it looks like if the rain just damaged few bytes of programing code... :confused:

I?ll continue my drying work, and as soon as the new version 12.x is launched I?ll update to see what comes out of it...

In the meantime, any clues out there?

Godo
 
Thank you Gogo for sharing your experience with rain in flight. What is particularly interesting for this community is that it happened after applying the avionics shelf sealing SB. There is a leak somewhere and you need to locate it. It may not be along the seal of the SB. You did not mention if you opened the avionic's cover to trace the leak. It is what I would do and if no trace is left I would close it back and hose the plane before reopening it. I don't see any other way to solve this from a preventive stand point. If you have permanent damage on the Skyview you will need to work with Dynon. Goog luck in your investigation.
 
Looks like an exciting trip you did.
I also flew to the show on tuesday and left thursday morning as the weather predictions looked pretty bad as you experienced.
I had great weather and beautiful trip.

My biggest water ingress came through the bending holes of the side panels of the dash which I did not seal properly. No more problems after plenty of RTV.
i also experienced ingress after leaving it in heavy rain for a few days but after the top seal trick as per Vans and the canopy cover also covering the fwd rim this is solved. Nothing comes in when flying.
Whenever water gets on the instrument tray it creeps up against the forward side of the panel when the plane excellerates. This may harm the panel buttons as you experienced.
I drilled several drain holes in the instrument tray to make sure that in case ever water gets in it drips on my legs and not into the avionics.

The canopy hinges always leak a bit despite all the things I did to stop it.
In heavy rain it will come in but it will not harm anything.
 
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